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Posted: 8/13/2001 8:48:31 AM EDT
I've found two types the ones you can buy three in a pack from Firequest and similar companies. these flechettes come with 20 flechettes in the 12 gauge round 10 facing forward 10 facing rearward with foam packing. the other one comes in a pre packed wad/sabot that you have to load your self but all flechettes are facing forward and they claim the sabot can be fired in a smooth bore with an effective range of 250-300 meters depending on the shotguns barrel length. Anyone have any additional info? [shotgun]
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 9:21:24 AM EDT
I have several packages of pre-made flechettes I got from a Special Forces guy, said he used them for walking point in Vietnam bush. Don't think their good to the ranges you listed, but he said the were hell on ambushes, cut through the jungle and anything else that got in their way. I've never fired mine, figured I hang on to 'em.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 10:01:10 AM EDT
Burn, the flechette loads in 12ga. are a JOKE! The "Beehive" rounds fired from the big recoiless rifles are another matter! 90mm and larger throw BIG flechettes at high velocity! A 1 1/8 oz. load (or less) ..... is laughable! DaMan
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 10:05:17 AM EDT
Oh, Mr. Wilson, I'd LOVE to see these "Special Forces" 12 ga. flechettes! You didn't BUY them from this imposter.....did you?????!!!! DaMan
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 10:19:37 AM EDT
I have a bag full somewhere. Gathered them up after some moron ran over a stack of 2.75 rockets with a HUMVEE. We were in blackout, but he had NVGs. Maybe he thought it was part of a motocross course. I never thought of loading them in a shotshell. Hmmm Eddie
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 10:46:07 AM EDT
DaMan They are red plastic, packed in 3 round shrink-wrap and I got them at the Houston chapter SF picnic several years ago, so yes he was a real SF. I pull Range officer duty for them at their yearly thing. No I was not in the service. I have a SF friend and he took me the first year and I really go just to shoot the full-auto M-60s, ARs, AKs, MP-5's, 50 dueces and etc... they have for their shoot-outs. They are nice folks, phonies not allowed.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 11:31:08 AM EDT
I have seen the 155mm flechettes rounds, they look like they would be very painful.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 11:43:30 AM EDT
there is two types the sucky ones RED hull three pack and these [url]http://sdllc.hypermart.net/002.html[/url] read it and see if you never tried them how the hell can you say if they suck or not?
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 12:25:31 PM EDT
The US has never had a flechette round for 155 mm. We did have a 105 mm Flechette, although adopted and issued out in large numbers it was still considered an experimental round. It used the same flechette type that were used in 2.75" FFAR, 90 and 106 mm RR and shotguns. The only reason the large caliber delivered flechettes were very effective because they were delivered in an extreme large quantity (thousands per round) and the explosive force of deploying the flechette caused them to bend. Once they hit the bent flechettes would perform a "fish hook" like turn in the body increasing the chances to injure. In the end US artillery has abandon Flechettes because it was found that killer junior was much more effective and could not be crawled under.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 12:39:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 12:51:56 PM EDT
Killer Junior is a HE round fired with a time fuze. The section uses a low charge, in order to get minimize the safety area inherent in the fuze (normally 2.2 seconds) The A gunner will apply an increase in required quadrant to achieve the range, and the Time of flight to the range will be applied to the fuze. Ideally you get a 20 m height of burst. That way you have a HE round functioning in the air above them. Showering the enemy with frag, vice the standard method of direct fire in which you use a HE with a Quick fuze, so you get a ground burst, which is a lot less effective. There also is a technique called "ICM in the wire," you fire ICM high angle with a low charge and low fuze setting. Once the fuze functions, the ICM is ejected back ward toward the gun (hopefully far enough away for crew safety). The effect is a lot AP or DP grenades functioning in front of the guns as close as 50 m.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 1:06:12 PM EDT
The US military really, really, REALLY wanted a flechette-launching individual weapon. Research the SPIW for details. One of the things they tried were 12 gauge shotgun shells loaded with flechettes. They proved to be less effective than buckshot and slug loads. Of course, shells that came from an SF guy must be far different and better than the ones that were produced for R&D.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 1:08:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 3:49:37 PM EDT
STLRN Thanks for the correction. I thought it was a 155 I guess I was wrong. I saw it at an ammunition plant, there must have been thousands of flechettes in that canister. Differently not something I would want to be on the receiving end of.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 8:38:44 PM EDT
Flechette rounds are banned in Canada. To me, that's a good enough reason to buy 'em. Local laws permitting.
Link Posted: 8/13/2001 10:06:02 PM EDT
they were selling bags of flechette in shotgun news to be used in hte reloading of 37mm munitions launchers. first off, that is not only illeagel but VERY illeagel. secondly, i belive the idea a 37 mm launcher could get effective velocity with em, unless one used handloads that were pretty heavy on the powder, and knowing civlian 37mm launchers, you would then be dealing with a flechette loaded bomb on a stick, but flechettes would have many other not so nice uses
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 12:42:03 AM EDT
Hay Beekeeper, I spent 3 years with Firest and Sixtenth Fild Artilery 155mm M109 howitzer, and there is most defanently 155mm Flechette round in 155mm. It is allso nuclear kapabull. Sorry i cant speel. There is a lot more about this artilery stuf then most peppel know, i was in Special Weapons for Artilery. Falcon out.
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 12:50:32 AM EDT
Sorry Beekeeper that was for STLRN. Ofcorse i was in the army back in the early 70s. A lot has changed.
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 2:55:40 AM EDT
Falcon2 What is the nomenclature or DODIC for the 155 mm APERS round. I have the TC 6-50-19 (Field Artillery Cannon Weapon Systems and Ammunition) from 1974. Under Flechettes it only lists M546 105 mm APERS (C513). I also have the XO hand book from 1978, neither list a DODIC or a Flechette round for 155 mm. The Hazard Classification of United States Military Explosives and Munitions (contains all DODIC and explosive weights for all Ammunition produced since W.W.II by the US military) doesn't list a flechette round in the "D" (155 projectiles) DODIC. With a Max range of around 15 KM, I don't think most people would like to shoot the M454 round.
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 3:06:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 3:42:25 AM EDT
The M546 round contains 8000 8 grain flechettes in its aluminum clam shell body. It comes shipped with a XM563 mechanical time fuze set on muzzle action. On fuze function (0.2 Sec for MA), the front of the round peeled back and 4000 flechettes and a red dye are expelled, centrifugal forces caused those flechettes to disperse. At the same time a flame rushed down the flash tube, followed by the secondary charge that ejected the last 4000 flechettes forward with a black smoke marker.
Link Posted: 8/14/2001 10:07:23 AM EDT
Hello there STLRN I dont know or remember any nomenclature, over 25 years a go. I allso am familer with the 8in. I am searten i fired anty pesanel rounds. Allso when charly was comming throu the fence it was common practic to swab the barrel with desiel and load the wast charges and you would have crispy critters on the fence. This was a long time ago. Falco out.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 8:50:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2001 12:53:56 PM EDT by BISHOP]
There is a company selling rolls of the 1 1/6" flechetts for $10. [URL]http://www.wvguns.com./[/URL] In the first picture there is a long 1 1/2" flechett. This is what was packed into the 12Ga shells that I have(bought), beside the long one is the short one that came from the roll. [img]http://members.aol.com/Krinkov545/flet01.jpg[/img] The rest are pics of the roll... like this.. [img]http://members.aol.com/Krinkov545/flet04.jpg[/img] [url]http://members.aol.com/Krinkov545/flet02.jpg[/url] [url]http://members.aol.com/Krinkov545/flet03.jpg[/url] Unraveled, the roll looks kinda cool as a bandoliere(sp) BISHOP
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 9:10:39 AM EDT
What sort of anti-personnel rounds (if any) do the tankers have for use in the Abrams?
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 11:01:59 AM EDT
The army is in the process of acquiring a new APERS round for the 120 mm. At first they were going to buy a IMI flechette round. But Flechettes don't disperse well enough from a smooth bore. Instead a fuzeless APERS round that uses steel cubes will be used. Until those hit the force the M830 HEAT/MP will be the standard main gun round for AP uses which in itself will mostly be supplanted with the M830A1 MPAT. Falcon Why would you swab the tube with diesel, not sure with a bore swab you could get more in the bore than would flash off when the powder burnt.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 11:30:17 AM EDT
Thanks for the info, STLRN.
Instead a fuzeless APERS round that uses steel cubes will be used.
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Since it's "fuzeless", does that mean that the round is basically just a bunch of cubes being driven out the muzzle by a propellant charge, like a 120mm buckshot round?
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 11:53:33 AM EDT
damn it guys I was asking about 12guage ammo not artillery I was a 13Bravo then a 13M I have artillery comming out my A$$. thanks though A True REDLEG!
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 12:00:27 PM EDT
Yes it basically a big shot gun round that is good to out to like 500m. The Marines and the 2nd ID (and possibly the troops part of KFOR also) will be the first to take delievery of the rounds.
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 12:33:03 PM EDT
the front of the round peeled back and 4000 flechettes and a red dye are expelled
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Can't remember if I read this or if it was just rumored that the red dye was an anitcoagulant. Any idea, STLRN? Eddie
Link Posted: 8/15/2001 12:58:49 PM EDT
LS1Eddie I have heard that before, but I cannot give a definitive answer to what the effect of the dye is on a human body. The technical purpose of the dye is to allow sported to actually see the round function and adjust the point of burst to have better effects on the target area (the same dye is in the ICM rounds to asset the observer in determining a height of burst).
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