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Posted: 2/13/2006 6:37:07 PM EDT
from:www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/200621205311.asp

Why .45 Matters
by James Dunnigan
February 12, 2006
Discussion Board on this DLS topic



Why do American troops prefer the century old .45 caliber pistol to lighter 9mm models? It’s all about “stopping power.” As far back as 1900, during the fighting against Moslem rebels in the Philippines, there had been complaints of enemy fighters getting shot and continuing to attack. From this experience, the then standard army pistol, a .38 caliber (actually .357, or 9.07mm) weapon, was replaced by a .45 caliber (11.4mm) one. In the 1980s, the .45 was in turn replaced by a 9mm pistol. There were a lot of complaints about that, but 90 years of experience demonstrated that you should not depend on a pistol in the heat of combat. But that was largely European experience, in major wars. In these conditions, pistols were rarely used in desperate battles. The fighting in Iraq reminded everyone that, especially in urban combat, a pistol was still an essential weapon. Going into buildings, troops would often prefer to have one or two guys holding pistols, as these could get into action faster if you were in cramped and crowded conditions. At close range, you didn’t want someone with a gun, or a knife, to require a second shot. And at ranges measured in a few feet, you couldn’t miss. If the enemy was amped up, you wanted to take him down with one shot, because there might not be time for a second. Many police SWAT teams have stayed with the .45 for the same reason.

The M1911 was better at stopping people, and that was mainly due to the size of the bullet. Technically, the “hitting power” of a bullet is determined by the bullet weight and velocity, and is measured in joules. The widely used 9mm Parabellum generated 583 joules, the Russian 7.62mm Tokarev (mainly used to execute cowardly soldiers, POWs or uncooperative civilians) produced 499 joules, while the .45 (11.4mm) only came up with 450 joules. But there's a major problem in just using joules, and that is how much of that energy is actually applied to the person being hit. A smaller, faster bullet has a tendency to just go through someone. This does damage, often fatal damage, but if often does not slow down a highly energized soldier. A larger bullet, especially a blunt one, will be more effective at "stopping" someone. Thus the popularity of the .45 caliber pistol round. Although it has less energy than the 9mm round (450 joules compared to 583), those who have used both insist that the .45 is far more effective than the smaller and faster 9mm. Part of this has to do with the fact that the .45 (11.4mm) bullet hits with a 60 percent larger (as seen head on) area, thus it applied more of that energy to the target. This explains the greater likelihood of the .45 caliber bullet "knocking down" whoever it hits. The same physics applies to rifle bullets (although they tend to have pointy tips, unlike the blunter ones for pistol pullets.) A 7.62mm bullet is 88 percent larger (head on) than a 5.56mm one.

Even before the Department of Defense decided to switch back to the .45, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the U.S. Marine Corps went and got .45 caliber pistols for use as an “alternative” to the standard 9mm M9. SOCOM was never happy with the 9mm's pistol's stopping power, even in the very limited scenarios, such as terrorist hostage rescue, where they can legally use 9mm hollow-point ammunition for increased effectiveness. SOCOM went out and developed the HK Mark23 Mod 0 SOCOM "offensive" handgun weapons system. This weapon, based on a popular H&K design, is 1.53 inches wide, 5.9 inches high and 9.65 inches long. It weighs 2.42 pounds empty and uses ten or twelve round magazines. The original M1911 is 8.25 inches long, 5.25 inches high, 1.5 inches wide and weighs 2.44 pounds empty (add .4 pounds for a loaded, seven round, magazine). Some 2.7 million M1911s have been manufactured so far, 1.9 million of them during World War II. Some 650,000 of the new U.S. .45 caliber pistols are expected to be manufactured initially.

The U.S. Marine Corps have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But this supply is running out, and the marines have been eager to see the 9mm M9 pistol replaced with a new .45 caliber model. Some marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.

The SOCOM Mk 23 may not be a prime candidate for the new standard pistol. That’s because the Mk 23 is a large weapon. A new “standard .45” will be used by a wide variety of troops, including women (who have smaller hands.) It is possible to make smaller .45s. One of the smallest currently available is the Glock Model 37. This .45 caliber pistol is 7.32 inches long, 5.51 inches high and 1.18 inches wide. It’s 1.63 pounds empty, and 2.22 pounds with a ten round magazine. Glock began making .45 caliber pistols in the early 1990s, and has steadily improved that design. There are smaller .45s than these Glocks, but none that are as sturdy and reliable. So it is possible to get a smaller .45 design that will be as robust as the original M1911
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:39:20 PM EDT
Tag for the shitstorm
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:41:27 PM EDT
ITS A TRAP!!!!
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:41:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brians_45:
Tag for the shitstorm



Actually I rather like the 45 Super, which you can shoot out of modified 1911's.

Big, Bad and Fast.. compared to the wimpy 9mm which is ballistically nothing more than a 38 special.




Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:42:06 PM EDT
Glocks don't meet the JSP requirements.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:42:53 PM EDT
We should trade it those 5.56 uppers for .45 uppers then, cause I've heard of Haji taking 5.56 and keepin on keepin on.
Course, I've heard 7.62x39mm doesnt put people down RIGHT NOW either, do they make an AK-47 in .45?? And I've heard of instances when .308 and even .50 bmg doesnt put tyhem down RIGHT NOW, so we should replace our .50's with .45 pistols too. Extend the barrel of course though.



Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:43:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Krazny13:
Glocks don't meet the JSP requirements.



Does the JSP even open itself up to the 45 GAP??
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:47:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 6:50:16 PM EDT by Bostonterrier97]

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
We should trade it those 5.56 uppers for .45 uppers then, cause I've heard of Haji taking 5.56 and keepin on keepin on.
Course, I've heard 7.62x39mm doesnt put people down RIGHT NOW either, do they make an AK-47 in .45?? And I've heard of instances when .308 and even .50 bmg doesnt put tyhem down RIGHT NOW, so we should replace our .50's with .45 pistols too. Extend the barrel of course though.










Thompson Machine Gun anybody?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:51:05 PM EDT
i'd like to hear of an instance where somebody got shot with a .50 and didn't go down.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:52:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
i'd like to hear of an instance where somebody got shot with a .50 and didn't go down.



Shoot'm in the arm.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:52:41 PM EDT
.500 S&W Magnum- accept no substitutes
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:53:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97:

Thompson Machine Gun anybody?



[sarcasm]
Heck ya! I see them gangstas in the movies go down like nothing against a Tommy. We need to ditch those m16's and get us some 1910's technology back in the saddle!
[/end sarcasm]

I guess its a good move to go to .45, but I'd still want 9mm for the simple reason the rest of NATO uses it; that and you can get 9mm anywhere in the world. But soldiers swear by the .45, and they're the ones who matter, so give me what they want.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:53:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
i'd like to hear of an instance where somebody got shot with a .50 and didn't go down.



Shoot'm in the arm.



okay, shot COM rather.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:53:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 6:58:46 PM EDT by Bostonterrier97]

Originally Posted By CRC:
.500 S&W Magnum- accept no substitutes



475 Linebaugh?

Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:55:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 6:58:31 PM EDT by fossil_fuel]
i definitely see why the .45 makes sense though. a shot through and through with a .45 FMJ has over 50% greater wound volume than a shot through and through with a 9mm. seems like a pretty substansial difference, at least on paper. if hollowpoints could only be used, the gap widens even more.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:59:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:

Originally Posted By Krazny13:
Glocks don't meet the JSP requirements.



Does the JSP even open itself up to the 45 GAP??



The GAP is not the reason it does not meet JSP.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:59:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
i'd like to hear of an instance where somebody got shot with a .50 and didn't go down.



Shoot'm in the arm.



Yup, people are tough, run all over the place for a while with thier arm blown off.

No bullet is gonna instantly kill someone without good shot placement. Well maybe a 120mm.....

Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:03:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RustedAce:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
i'd like to hear of an instance where somebody got shot with a .50 and didn't go down.



Shoot'm in the arm.



Yup, people are tough, run all over the place for a while with thier arm blown off.

No bullet is gonna instantly kill someone without good shot placement. Well maybe a 120mm.....





Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:08:24 PM EDT
Yes, yes...9mm is incapable of halting an attack...and .45 ACP is the only round that you can trust your life to.

Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:08:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
i'd like to hear of an instance where somebody got shot with a .50 and didn't go down.



OIF 1, I witnessed a Fadeyeen Saddam take a 50 to the torso and than attempt to fire off an RPG. He was latter chewed apart by multiple crew serves to include some 25mm.

In the Marines Corps report on weapons effects, it speaks of an event with BLT 2/2 in which a Jihadist (who believed to be on drugs) took 2 rounds to the torso from a Barrett and continued to attack.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:09:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97:
from:www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/200621205311.asp

Why .45 Matters
by James Dunnigan
February 12, 2006
Discussion Board on this DLS topic



Why do American troops prefer the century old .45 caliber pistol to lighter 9mm models? It’s all about “stopping power.” As far back as 1900, during the fighting against Moslem rebels in the Philippines, there had been complaints of enemy fighters getting shot and continuing to attack. From this experience, the then standard army pistol, a .38 caliber (actually .357, or 9.07mm) weapon, was replaced by a .45 caliber (11.4mm) one. In the 1980s, the .45 was in turn replaced by a 9mm pistol. There were a lot of complaints about that, but 90 years of experience demonstrated that you should not depend on a pistol in the heat of combat. But that was largely European experience, in major wars. In these conditions, pistols were rarely used in desperate battles. The fighting in Iraq reminded everyone that, especially in urban combat, a pistol was still an essential weapon. Going into buildings, troops would often prefer to have one or two guys holding pistols, as these could get into action faster if you were in cramped and crowded conditions. At close range, you didn’t want someone with a gun, or a knife, to require a second shot. And at ranges measured in a few feet, you couldn’t miss. If the enemy was amped up, you wanted to take him down with one shot, because there might not be time for a second. Many police SWAT teams have stayed with the .45 for the same reason.

The M1911 was better at stopping people, and that was mainly due to the size of the bullet. Technically, the “hitting power” of a bullet is determined by the bullet weight and velocity, and is measured in joules. The widely used 9mm Parabellum generated 583 joules, the Russian 7.62mm Tokarev (mainly used to execute cowardly soldiers, POWs or uncooperative civilians) produced 499 joules, while the .45 (11.4mm) only came up with 450 joules. But there's a major problem in just using joules, and that is how much of that energy is actually applied to the person being hit. A smaller, faster bullet has a tendency to just go through someone. This does damage, often fatal damage, but if often does not slow down a highly energized soldier. A larger bullet, especially a blunt one, will be more effective at "stopping" someone. Thus the popularity of the .45 caliber pistol round. Although it has less energy than the 9mm round (450 joules compared to 583), those who have used both insist that the .45 is far more effective than the smaller and faster 9mm. Part of this has to do with the fact that the .45 (11.4mm) bullet hits with a 60 percent larger (as seen head on) area, thus it applied more of that energy to the target. This explains the greater likelihood of the .45 caliber bullet "knocking down" whoever it hits. The same physics applies to rifle bullets (although they tend to have pointy tips, unlike the blunter ones for pistol pullets.) A 7.62mm bullet is 88 percent larger (head on) than a 5.56mm one.

Even before the Department of Defense decided to switch back to the .45, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the U.S. Marine Corps went and got .45 caliber pistols for use as an “alternative” to the standard 9mm M9. SOCOM was never happy with the 9mm's pistol's stopping power, even in the very limited scenarios, such as terrorist hostage rescue, where they can legally use 9mm hollow-point ammunition for increased effectiveness. SOCOM went out and developed the HK Mark23 Mod 0 SOCOM "offensive" handgun weapons system. This weapon, based on a popular H&K design, is 1.53 inches wide, 5.9 inches high and 9.65 inches long. It weighs 2.42 pounds empty and uses ten or twelve round magazines. The original M1911 is 8.25 inches long, 5.25 inches high, 1.5 inches wide and weighs 2.44 pounds empty (add .4 pounds for a loaded, seven round, magazine). Some 2.7 million M1911s have been manufactured so far, 1.9 million of them during World War II. Some 650,000 of the new U.S. .45 caliber pistols are expected to be manufactured initially.

The U.S. Marine Corps have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But this supply is running out, and the marines have been eager to see the 9mm M9 pistol replaced with a new .45 caliber model. Some marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.

The SOCOM Mk 23 may not be a prime candidate for the new standard pistol. That’s because the Mk 23 is a large weapon. A new “standard .45” will be used by a wide variety of troops, including women (who have smaller hands.) It is possible to make smaller .45s. One of the smallest currently available is the Glock Model 37. This .45 caliber pistol is 7.32 inches long, 5.51 inches high and 1.18 inches wide. It’s 1.63 pounds empty, and 2.22 pounds with a ten round magazine. Glock began making .45 caliber pistols in the early 1990s, and has steadily improved that design. There are smaller .45s than these Glocks, but none that are as sturdy and reliable. So it is possible to get a smaller .45 design that will be as robust as the original M1911





Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:10:48 PM EDT
Because we all know that comparing FMJs to self defense JHP loads makes perfect sense.

But I'm just here to tag.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:12:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By STLRN:

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
i'd like to hear of an instance where somebody got shot with a .50 and didn't go down.



OIF 1, I witnessed a Fadeyeen Saddam take a 50 to the torso and than attempt to fire off an RPG. He was latter chewed apart by multiple crew serves to include some 25mm.

In the Marines Corps report on weapons effects, it speaks of an event with BLT 2/2 in which a Jihadist (who believed to be on drugs) took 2 rounds to the torso from a Barrett and continued to attack.




"There is NO MAGIC FUCKING BULLET......plan accordingly."



For three days I heard this over and over and over....
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:15:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 7:16:21 PM EDT by Specop_007]

Originally Posted By RustedAce:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
i'd like to hear of an instance where somebody got shot with a .50 and didn't go down.



Shoot'm in the arm.



Yup, people are tough, run all over the place for a while with thier arm blown off.

No bullet is gonna instantly kill someone without good shot placement. Well maybe a 120mm.....




Exactly. If your replacing skill with caliber, you might as well look to see if you can just get a 120mm.

That said, I've never been in a combat situation, although I've been in stressful situations when shooting so I can understand how the pressure might make an otherwise good shot end up being a bit hasty and not perfect.
Which is why its so improtant to practice practice PRACTICE.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:16:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By STLRN:

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
i'd like to hear of an instance where somebody got shot with a .50 and didn't go down.



OIF 1, I witnessed a Fadeyeen Saddam take a 50 to the torso and than attempt to fire off an RPG. He was latter chewed apart by multiple crew serves to include some 25mm.

In the Marines Corps report on weapons effects, it speaks of an event with BLT 2/2 in which a Jihadist (who believed to be on drugs) took 2 rounds to the torso from a Barrett and continued to attack.



damn. that's just..... crazy. i guess we have to keep in mind that even if someone's heart is destroyed, they still have several seconds of voluntary muscle control....
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:16:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:

Originally Posted By Krazny13:
Glocks don't meet the JSP requirements.



Does the JSP even open itself up to the 45 GAP??



The GAP is not the reason it does not meet JSP.



I didn't say it was. I was just wondering if it were even open to the GAP round. After looking at the RFP, it states it needs to be 45 ACP. Lots of holes in this article.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:21:32 PM EDT
a double stacked .45acp beats a double stacked 9mm ANY day of the week...FMJs or JHPs (as long as the gun is reliable)


Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:22:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
a double stacked .45acp beats a double stacked 9mm ANY day of the week...FMJs or JHPs (as long as the gun is reliable)





Unless your bump firing underwater.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:22:38 PM EDT
If we'd just stop issueing crap magazines and stop pretending we signed onto a a poorly thought out treaty so we cold start issuing JHP rounds I think a lot of problems would disappear.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:26:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mauser101:
If we'd just stop issueing crap magazines and stop pretending we signed onto a a poorly thought out treaty so we cold start issuing JHP rounds I think a lot of problems would disappear.



+1. can you imagine the damage that could be done with a soft point .50BMG antipersonnel round? what if the SCAR-H with fragmenting .308 like the hornady TAP rounds became a common issue rifle? we really need to throw the hague convention in the trash.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:53:17 PM EDT
TAG









Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:59:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By STLRN:

OIF 1, I witnessed a Fadeyeen Saddam take a 50 to the torso and than attempt to fire off an RPG. He was latter chewed apart by multiple crew serves to include some 25mm.

In the Marines Corps report on weapons effects, it speaks of an event with BLT 2/2 in which a Jihadist (who believed to be on drugs) took 2 rounds to the torso from a Barrett and continued to attack.





An yet another reason to adopt a HPAPIT 50BMG round...!
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 8:43:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
i'd like to hear of an instance where somebody got shot with a .50 and didn't go down.




Bataan Japanese sniper took 3 hits from a 50 and was finally put down with a butt stroke to the head with an M1

Before you pooh pooh this it comes straight fom my uncle.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 8:52:04 PM EDT
Bring back the 16 inch, a vw bug size projectile into a 30 foot circle (1980's tech) means a second shot won't be neccessary.
You just can't shoulder that sucker.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 8:56:54 PM EDT
One box stock Ruger .22LR is all anyone would need in combat.

Anything else would be a over kill.

_________________________



Link Posted: 2/13/2006 8:58:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
a double stacked .45acp beats a double stacked 9mm ANY day of the week...FMJs or JHPs (as long as the gun is reliable)





Unless your bump firing underwater.



Link Posted: 2/13/2006 9:44:20 PM EDT
On another note; I have heard of the Crane folks looking at a modified design of the 1911 that "may" accept the hk mag. hmmm
The Crane folks have been doing a lot of testing of various brands and styles. Many things point back to the orginal 1911 design with a few mods. The guys who shoot and poop, are experianced in handling firearms and for some reason thats waht they like.
One of the origianal complaints against the 1911 was the grip size and the ability to handle the recoil ( this is what was published for the pentagon before the M-92 was adopted)
What has been found over the years? The grip of the 1911 does fine in the hand of a properly trained person. Only the smallest of persons have trouble with the grip, as they also do with the M-92. hmmm
The number of rounds in the mag. was anothr issue with the 1911, so the M-92 got a big + for increased rounds. Never mind that better training would have taken care of that problem ( someone was a proponet of spray and pray)
In my experiance as a Paramedic/ and LEO I have seen people shot with 9mm and .45 rounds, Both do damage but the .45 wounds are much harder handle when placed in or close to a critical area.
In my opinion John Moses Browning was a Genius, who Knew what it would take to provide our men in arms with a very good round that does the job when the round is placed properly.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 9:51:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
i'd like to hear of an instance where somebody got shot with a .50 and didn't go down.



Gary Roberts reports seeing this exact thing-a sailor hit in the torso with an ND from a .50. He had to be restrained from physically assaulting the negligent sailor, and he later made a full recovery.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 9:58:29 PM EDT


John Wayne would have wanted a .45.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:10:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:33:43 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:53:06 PM EDT
Shot placement is king when it comes to knocking down deer. I have learned that from the school of hard knocks. That said I would take the .45 over the 9mm if I had a chose. I have seen deer take multiply hits of 30.06 180 gran soft point ammo and still run two miles. Hit them with one good placed shot and they go down and stay down.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 4:57:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:

Originally Posted By STLRN:

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
i'd like to hear of an instance where somebody got shot with a .50 and didn't go down.



OIF 1, I witnessed a Fadeyeen Saddam take a 50 to the torso and than attempt to fire off an RPG. He was latter chewed apart by multiple crew serves to include some 25mm.

In the Marines Corps report on weapons effects, it speaks of an event with BLT 2/2 in which a Jihadist (who believed to be on drugs) took 2 rounds to the torso from a Barrett and continued to attack.



damn. that's just..... crazy. i guess we have to keep in mind that even if someone's heart is destroyed, they still have several seconds of voluntary muscle control....



I recollect that even if your heart is utterly destroyed, your can remain concious and able to shoot back for up to 15 seconds. That's a long time in a gunfight.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:03:20 AM EDT
Where can I get me one of them there 120mm pistols???
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:17:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:22:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Yes, yes...9mm is incapable of halting an attack...and .45 ACP is the only round that you can trust your life to.




I'll bet if you trained at Blackwater you could stop somone by just brandishing a 9
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:45:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

John Wayne would have wanted a .45.



What? So, he could fire blanks in a movie role portraying something he never did.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 5:46:37 AM EDT
Get Both!
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:01:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By _DR:

John Wayne would have wanted a .45.



What? So, he could fire blanks in a movie role portraying something he never did.




Lighten up a bit, man.

I speak in jest.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:35:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 6:55:20 AM EDT by txgp17]

Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97:
from:www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/200621205311.asp
Why .45 Matters
by James Dunnigan
February 12, 2006
Discussion Board on this DLS topic

...snip... Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, .....


Originally Posted By Trainman:
www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/bb-62-DNSC8902127_JPG.jpg
Okay, that's a photoshop right?

I don't think so. Seems like I've seen that actual scene several times in photos, but from the angle where the people with the tripods are located. If I'm wrong it certainly won't be the first time, nor the last.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 6:39:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
We should trade it those 5.56 uppers for .45 uppers then, cause I've heard of Haji taking 5.56 and keepin on keepin on.
Course, I've heard 7.62x39mm doesnt put people down RIGHT NOW either, do they make an AK-47 in .45?? And I've heard of instances when .308 and even .50 bmg doesnt put tyhem down RIGHT NOW, so we should replace our .50's with .45 pistols too. Extend the barrel of course though.






Ok, if the 5.56 doesn't stop them, then how about a .45-70?
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