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Posted: 2/2/2006 5:50:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 5:51:41 PM EDT by Dusty_C]
I keep seeing all the libs around here referring to islam as a religion of peace. I have never, not once, seen any muslims stand up and say that are a religion of peace and condemn Bin Laden and his actions. So obviously libs here are their greatest ally. Now just because I haven't seen any muslims disassociate themselves with terrorism doesn't mean it hasn't happened, I know that. I'm curious as to what ya'll think. Does Islam as a whole want us all dead and the ones "helping us out" just using us for their own agenda? Or are the terrorist groups a seperate faction from true islam that is actually peaceful?



ETA PLEASE don't less this thread go south. I've seen a little bit of arguement on this subject and I'm curious to know what ya'll think. Don't trash them and get this thread locked please.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:55:05 PM EDT
apparently you've never watched the news when they have american muslims saying their religion is a religion of peace, or the show on the discovery channel where this catholic guy went and lived life as a muslim for like 2 months or some shit.

all religions have fanatics. it just happens that muslims are a religion that the "west" has consistently shit on
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:55:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 6:00:19 PM EDT by OBird]
From my readings/limited experience, I think that if you strictly follow the koran, it's kinda foggy as to whether we should all be dead or not. However, if you're a "loose" muslim (sorta like a really liberal Episcopalean or something), you can interpret/twist it to mean something else. Same with the nuts...they twist it to mean what they want. I will not say that the koran allows for universal killing of all non-muslims. However, there are some pretty cut-and-dry passages that do allow for killing of "infidels" in semi-specific situations.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:56:56 PM EDT
like christianity, islam got off to a fairly "enlightened" start. however, it is now going through it's dark ages, much like the middle ages in europe when "witches" and "heretics" were burned at the stake with the church's approval. in a few hundred years, islam will mature and things will be good again.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:03:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:04:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CastorTroy:
apparently you've never watched the news when they have american muslims saying their religion is a religion of peace, or the show on the discovery channel where this catholic guy went and lived life as a muslim for like 2 months or some shit.

all religions have fanatics. it just happens that muslims are a religion that the "west" has consistently shit on

I've seen them, I should have elaborated. I HAVE seen a lot of Muslims from the middle east say that American Muslims are not real muslims.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:04:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 6:05:55 PM EDT by TrijiCog]
The world would be much better off if Islam ceased to exist.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:06:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OBird:
pretty cut-and-dry passages that do allow for killing of "infidels" in semi-specific situations.



Where did I put my Star Fleet universal translator?

[looking in the couch cushions]



Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:07:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
like christianity, islam got off to a fairly "enlightened" start. however, it is now going through it's dark ages, much like the middle ages in europe when "witches" and "heretics" were burned at the stake with the church's approval. in a few hundred years, islam will mature and things will be good again.



They need a reformation just like Christianity did.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:12:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
like christianity, islam got off to a fairly "enlightened" start. however, it is now going through it's dark ages, much like the middle ages in europe when "witches" and "heretics" were burned at the stake with the church's approval. in a few hundred years, islam will mature and things will be good again.



Islam spread because their little band went around to every local city state and said convert or die; or if your Jewish it doesn't matter if you convert, we will kill you anyway.

Read the history of how Islam spread throughout the Arab world. Its quite the bloody affair.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:18:57 PM EDT

The Koran says 136 times that it's ok to kill "non-muslims".

Religion of peace?


There are a lot of sheeple in that religion.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:19:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 6:20:01 PM EDT by fossil_fuel]

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
like christianity, islam got off to a fairly "enlightened" start. however, it is now going through it's dark ages, much like the middle ages in europe when "witches" and "heretics" were burned at the stake with the church's approval. in a few hundred years, islam will mature and things will be good again.



Islam spread because their little band went around to every local city state and said convert or die; or if your Jewish it doesn't matter if you convert, we will kill you anyway.

Read the history of how Islam spread throughout the Arab world. Its quite the bloody affair.



you are incorrect. christians and jews (and Zoroastrians to some extent )in conquered areas were tolerated, but had to pay special taxes. it was the polytheists who had to convert or die, muhammad REALLY hated polytheism.

muhammad did slaughter and enslave the jewish tribes of medina after the battles with the meccans, but it was for political reasons, not religious or idelogical ones. He had signed an alliance with the tribes, but they had betrayed him and given weapons and information to his enemies the meccans. that was SOP in those days and would have turned out the same no matter what religion they were.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:23:52 PM EDT
in the end it really doesn't matter. fact is there is a rising division between muslim based countries and movements and what is not dar al-islam.

perhaps the tide will settle down. or perhaps we are heading towards wwIII. is way too soon to say. there is no islamic state or group of states that could stand against even 1 of our nuke subs. and i dont think that america is gonna convert. europe may find itself overwhelmed eventually if they dont do something about imagration. and then there are the chinese who don't seem to be tolerant of anything that threatens them as a society.

what i think is that what islam lacks is some sort of hitler like person to crystalize the movement and give it some sort of coordinated direction of world domination. then they need the technology to pursue that vision. but seems that the lines are becoming more defined each day.

still a long ways off though....

and i think there are some parallels about them being in their inquisition phase. but i'm not sure the wold wants to put up with their growing pains.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:23:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TrijiCog:
The world would be much better off if Islam ceased to exist.


+1,000,000
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:24:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lippo:
The Koran says 136 times that it's ok to kill "non-muslims".

Religion of peace?


There are a lot of sheeple in that religion.



And I have seen some sheeple responses in this thread, apparently by those that have never read the Koran or any of the associated doctrines associated with Islam.

The Koran not only states it is acceptable to kill non-believers, but that it is okay to lie and manipulate their way to a non-believers heart. Geez
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:33:10 PM EDT

Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:34:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By krpind:

Originally Posted By OBird:
pretty cut-and-dry passages that do allow for killing of "infidels" in semi-specific situations.



Where did I put my Star Fleet universal translator?

[looking in the couch cushions]








Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:54:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:59:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
I have never, not once, seen any muslims stand up and say that are a religion of peace and condemn Bin Laden and his actions.



Well, there ARE a number of muslims who have condemmed the terrorist attacts (and made public statements to that effect - shortly after 9/11 as well as later):

Here are just a few (I couldn't be bothered to spend a lot of time searching):

Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh (Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and Chairman of the Senior Ulama, on September 15th, 2001)
Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi (Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and Sira Countil, Qatar)
Judge Tariq al-Bishri, First Deputy President of the Council d'etat, Egypt
Dr. Muhammad s. al-Awa, Professor of Islamic Law and Shari'a, Egypt
Dr. Haytham al-Khayyat, Islamic scholar, Syria
Fahmi Houaydi, Islamic scholar, Syria
Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, Chairman, North America High Council
Zaki Badawi, Principal of the Muslim College in London
Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, Pakistan.
King Abdullah II, of Jordan
Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt;
Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan
Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh
Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia
Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia
Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi, Qatar
Tariq Bishri, Egypt
Muhammad S. Awwa, Egypt
Fahmi Huwaydi, Egypt
Haytham Khayyat, Syria
Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, U.S.
Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt
Abdel-Mo'tei Bayyoumi, al-Azhar Islamic Research Academy, Cairo, Egypt
Shaykh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, spiritual guide of Shi‘i Muslim radicals in Lebanon
Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
Shaykh Muhammad bin ‘Abdallah al-Sabil, member of the Council of Senior Religious Scholars, Saudi Arabia
Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, a prominent religious scholar in Qatar
President Muhammad Khatami of Iran
League of Arab States
Dr. Abdelouahed Belkeziz, Secretary-General of the Organization of the Islamic Conference
Organization of the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers
Dr. Agha Saeed, National Chair of the American Muslim Alliance
American Muslim Alliance
American Muslim Council
Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers
Association of Muslim Social Scientists
Council on American-Islamic Relations
Islamic Medical Association of North America
Islamic Circle of North America
Islamic Society of North America
Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed
Muslim American Society
Muslim Public Affairs Council
Afghan Muslim Association (Fremont, CA)
American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice (AMGPJ)
American Muslims for Jerusalem (Northern California)
American Muslims Intent on Learning and Activism (AMILA)
Arab-American Congress, Council on American-Islamic Relations (Northern California)
Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA) Bay Area
Islamic Networks Group (ING)
Islamic Society of the East Bay (Union City, CA)
Islamic Society of San Francisco
Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) West Zone
Muslim American Society
Muslim Community Association (MCA)
Muslim Peace Fellowship (Nyack, NY)
South Bay Islamic Association (San Jose, CA)
Zaytuna Institute (Hayward, CA)
United Muslim Association of Toledo
Shari'a Scholars Association of North America



Now - are these SINCERE??? Your guess is as good as mine ... but to answer your specific question, there are PLENTY of examples of muslim leaders, organizations and clerics who have clearly condemmed 9/11 and terrorism.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:07:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CastorTroy:
apparently you've never watched the news when they have american muslims saying their religion is a religion of peace, or the show on the discovery channel where this catholic guy went and lived life as a muslim for like 2 months or some shit.

all religions have fanatics. it just happens that muslims are a religion that the "west" has consistently shit on




Not to burst anyones bubble here, but, this is a battle that predates even Christ. It can be traced all the way back to the time when Abraham had two sons ( Isaac the legitamit son, and Ishmael the child born out of wedlock with one of his arab slaves) The power struggle between each of the two sons in attempt to win their fathers ( Abrahams ) favor caused the two sons and their followers to battle each other from the start and the battle still continues today. Read the Old Testimet, even the ROPers cannot deny what is written....
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:09:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 7:21:47 PM EDT by Defcon]
there are very few religions that have as many terrorists as "islam"

<This portion of the response removed -- Defcon>
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:11:19 PM EDT
The problem with Islam is it still stuck in the middle ages, whereas the rest of the religions have progressed to a more civilized state
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:12:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By -Absolut-:
The problem with Islam is it still stuck in the middle ages




+1

And the problem is that a lot of them would rather drag EVERYONE ELSE back into the middle ages with them, than come join us in the modern civilized world.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:15:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OBird:
From my readings/limited experience, I think that if you strictly follow the koran, it's kinda foggy as to whether we should all be dead or not. However, if you're a "loose" muslim (sorta like a really liberal Episcopalean or something), you can interpret/twist it to mean something else. Same with the nuts...they twist it to mean what they want. I will not say that the koran allows for universal killing of all non-muslims. However, there are some pretty cut-and-dry passages that do allow for killing of "infidels" in semi-specific situations.



Umm, no. You are, unfortunately, flat dead wrong.

To a believing, practising Muslim (Sunni or Shia), the Koran is in absolutely uncorruptable, literal word of Allah which was dictated directly from Allah throught the Archangel Gabriel to the Messenger, Mohammad (because no living man can hear Allah's voice and live) in Allah's own language, Arabic.

Technically, the Koran even cease to really be the Koran when translated into another language other than Arabic. This plays into the hands of those Muslims practicing tiqyya (religous deception) and kitman (telling partial truths to hide the truth). An example is "jihad doesn't mean 'holy war', it means 'internal struggle'..." That's partially true, it depends on the context. In the most common context in the Koran, it means "holy war".

It can not be "interpreted". To believing, practicing Muslims every word is literally true - though it is true that the earlier sure often are superceded by later sura (as in Allah later revealed a change in the plan to Mohammad). The confusion most non-Muslims have is that the sura are not in chronological order (in other words, the ones in the back of the book are older than the ones in the front).

Judge for yourself.


Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:16:02 PM EDT
They have been going down hill after peaking at inventing numbers.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:18:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By -Absolut-:
The problem with Islam is it still stuck in the middle ages, whereas the rest of the religions have progressed to a more civilized state


And is real popular in 3rd world shitvilles.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:19:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 7:26:57 PM EDT by hanibal]
If they condemn terrorism it is up to them to clean house and lose the extremists. Until they do that it's simply lip service. Stop harboring and protecting terrorists if you're against their actions. Period.

It's up to THEM to prove to ME that they're against terrorism, not for me to just assume they are because some Cleric released a quote to the press. The old saying "actions speak louder than words" comes to mind.

ETA: I voted #2
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:21:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 7:22:44 PM EDT by red65]

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
I have never, not once, seen any muslims stand up and say that are a religion of peace and condemn Bin Laden and his actions.



Well, there ARE a number of muslims who have condemmed the terrorist attacts (and made public statements to that effect - shortly after 9/11 as well as later):

Here are just a few (I couldn't be bothered to spend a lot of time searching):

Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh (Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and Chairman of the Senior Ulama, on September 15th, 2001)
Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi (Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and Sira Countil, Qatar)
Judge Tariq al-Bishri, First Deputy President of the Council d'etat, Egypt
Dr. Muhammad s. al-Awa, Professor of Islamic Law and Shari'a, Egypt
Dr. Haytham al-Khayyat, Islamic scholar, Syria
Fahmi Houaydi, Islamic scholar, Syria
Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, Chairman, North America High Council
Zaki Badawi, Principal of the Muslim College in London
Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, Pakistan.
King Abdullah II, of Jordan
Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt;
Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan
Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh
Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia
Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia
Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi, Qatar
Tariq Bishri, Egypt
Muhammad S. Awwa, Egypt
Fahmi Huwaydi, Egypt
Haytham Khayyat, Syria
Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, U.S.
Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt
Abdel-Mo'tei Bayyoumi, al-Azhar Islamic Research Academy, Cairo, Egypt
Shaykh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, spiritual guide of Shi‘i Muslim radicals in Lebanon
Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
Shaykh Muhammad bin ‘Abdallah al-Sabil, member of the Council of Senior Religious Scholars, Saudi Arabia
Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, a prominent religious scholar in Qatar
President Muhammad Khatami of Iran
League of Arab States
Dr. Abdelouahed Belkeziz, Secretary-General of the Organization of the Islamic Conference
Organization of the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers
Dr. Agha Saeed, National Chair of the American Muslim Alliance
American Muslim Alliance
American Muslim Council
Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers
Association of Muslim Social Scientists
Council on American-Islamic Relations
Islamic Medical Association of North America
Islamic Circle of North America
Islamic Society of North America
Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed
Muslim American Society
Muslim Public Affairs Council
Afghan Muslim Association (Fremont, CA)
American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice (AMGPJ)
American Muslims for Jerusalem (Northern California)
American Muslims Intent on Learning and Activism (AMILA)
Arab-American Congress, Council on American-Islamic Relations (Northern California)
Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA) Bay Area
Islamic Networks Group (ING)
Islamic Society of the East Bay (Union City, CA)
Islamic Society of San Francisco
Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) West Zone
Muslim American Society
Muslim Community Association (MCA)
Muslim Peace Fellowship (Nyack, NY)
South Bay Islamic Association (San Jose, CA)
Zaytuna Institute (Hayward, CA)
United Muslim Association of Toledo
Shari'a Scholars Association of North America



Now - are these SINCERE??? Your guess is as good as mine ... but to answer your specific question, there are PLENTY of examples of muslim leaders, organizations and clerics who have clearly condemmed 9/11 and terrorism.



hooray.

when NYC gets flattened by a muslim nuke, I'll be sure remember all the swell muslims out there.

isn't it about time for one of you liberal wanna-bees to bring up the crusades? that occurred 500 years ago?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:22:33 PM EDT
the united states is referred to as "the melting pot" so


lets melt some down

Gary
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:23:33 PM EDT
when the koran talks about "unbelievers" and "idolaters", it's referring to the polytheistic arab religions of the time. it does not refer to jews and christians, who worship the same god as muslms, the "god of abraham and moses." the only passage there that is anti-christian or anti-jewish is 5:54. polytheists were considered heretics, and last time i checked no religion was historically friendly to those it considered heretics.

as i said before, historically polytheists had much to fear from islam, but jews and christians were generally tolerated and respected within the muslim sphere of influence.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:24:20 PM EDT
I have a problem with a religion that makes women dress up in a full body dress, not to mention women cant own property or go outside without a male escort.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:24:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By red65:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
I have never, not once, seen any muslims stand up and say that are a religion of peace and condemn Bin Laden and his actions.



...




hooray.

when NYC gets flattened by a muslim nuke, I'll be sure remember all the swell muslims out there.

isn't it about time for one of you liberal wanna-bees to bring up the crusades? that occurred 500 years ago?




Kiss my hairy Danish ass!


I'm not saying I BELIEVE any one of them, but the question was whether any of them HAD stood up and said something - and that list is a (partial) answer to that question.

Dusty_C asked, I answered. Don't shoot the messenger.

Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:24:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
when the koran talks about "unbelievers" and "idolaters", it's referring to the polytheistic arab religions of the time. it does not refer to jews and christians, who worship the same god as muslms, the "god of abraham and moses." the only passage there that is anti-christian or anti-jewish is 5:54. polytheists were considered heretics, and last time i checked no religion was historically friendly to those it considered heretics.

as i said before, historically polytheists had much to fear from islam, but jews and christians were generally tolerated and respected within the muslim sphere of influence.

So what the fuck happened?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:25:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
I have never, not once, seen any muslims stand up and say that are a religion of peace and condemn Bin Laden and his actions.



Well, there ARE a number of muslims who have condemmed the terrorist attacts (and made public statements to that effect - shortly after 9/11 as well as later):

Here are just a few (I couldn't be bothered to spend a lot of time searching):

Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh (Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and Chairman of the Senior Ulama, on September 15th, 2001)
Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi (Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and Sira Countil, Qatar)
Judge Tariq al-Bishri, First Deputy President of the Council d'etat, Egypt
Dr. Muhammad s. al-Awa, Professor of Islamic Law and Shari'a, Egypt
Dr. Haytham al-Khayyat, Islamic scholar, Syria
Fahmi Houaydi, Islamic scholar, Syria
Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, Chairman, North America High Council
Zaki Badawi, Principal of the Muslim College in London
Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, Pakistan.
King Abdullah II, of Jordan
Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt;
Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan
Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh
Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia
Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia
Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi, Qatar
Tariq Bishri, Egypt
Muhammad S. Awwa, Egypt
Fahmi Huwaydi, Egypt
Haytham Khayyat, Syria
Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, U.S.
Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt
Abdel-Mo'tei Bayyoumi, al-Azhar Islamic Research Academy, Cairo, Egypt
Shaykh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, spiritual guide of Shi‘i Muslim radicals in Lebanon
Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
Shaykh Muhammad bin ‘Abdallah al-Sabil, member of the Council of Senior Religious Scholars, Saudi Arabia
Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, a prominent religious scholar in Qatar
President Muhammad Khatami of Iran
League of Arab States
Dr. Abdelouahed Belkeziz, Secretary-General of the Organization of the Islamic Conference
Organization of the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers
Dr. Agha Saeed, National Chair of the American Muslim Alliance
American Muslim Alliance
American Muslim Council
Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers
Association of Muslim Social Scientists
Council on American-Islamic Relations
Islamic Medical Association of North America
Islamic Circle of North America
Islamic Society of North America
Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed
Muslim American Society
Muslim Public Affairs Council
Afghan Muslim Association (Fremont, CA)
American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice (AMGPJ)
American Muslims for Jerusalem (Northern California)
American Muslims Intent on Learning and Activism (AMILA)
Arab-American Congress, Council on American-Islamic Relations (Northern California)
Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA) Bay Area
Islamic Networks Group (ING)
Islamic Society of the East Bay (Union City, CA)
Islamic Society of San Francisco
Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) West Zone
Muslim American Society
Muslim Community Association (MCA)
Muslim Peace Fellowship (Nyack, NY)
South Bay Islamic Association (San Jose, CA)
Zaytuna Institute (Hayward, CA)
United Muslim Association of Toledo
Shari'a Scholars Association of North America



Now - are these SINCERE??? Your guess is as good as mine ... but to answer your specific question, there are PLENTY of examples of muslim leaders, organizations and clerics who have clearly condemmed 9/11 and terrorism.



Yes, yes and Yasir Araphat too. But we all saw the dancing in the streets in stark contrast to the NYCers with gaping mouths and silent hand wringing. By their fruits ye shall know them.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:25:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TrijiCog:
The world would be much better off if Islam ceased to exist.



+1
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:25:58 PM EDT
For those who support the politically-inspired notion that terrorism is not condoned by Islam, that terrorists have corrupted an otherwise peaceful religion, consider this. The world’s foremost authority on the Qur’an is sheik Abdel Rahman. He was the senior professor of Qur’anic studies at Islam’s most prestigious university, Al-Azhar, in Cairo. Today, the sheik is a convicted terrorist, serving time in an American prison for the ’93 bombing of the World Trade Center. If the Qur’an espouses peace, that’s hard to explain.

These words come directly out of the Qur’an’s “Spoils of War,” surah:
“Allah has sent you from your homes to fight for the Cause. Allah wished to confirm the truth by his words: wipe the Infidels out to the last. I shall fill the hearts of the Infidels with terror! So smite them on their necks and every joint, and incapacitate them, for they are opposed to Allah and His Apostle. Whoever opposes Us should know that Allah is severe in retribution. The Infidels will taste the torment of Hell. So when you meet them in battle do not retreat, for all who turn away from fighting will bring the wrath of Allah on themselves and their abode will be Hell. It was not you who killed them, but Allah who did so. You did not throw what you threw. Allah did to bring out the best in the faithful.” Using this reasoning, it was the Islamic god, not Muslims, who flew the planes into the World Trade Center. “So, fight them till all opposition ends and Islam is the only religion.”


The truth is obvious: the terrorists haven’t corrupted their religion. Islam has corrupted them. The murderers are following their prophet’s example. And while most Muslims aren’t terrorists, all the really good ones are. They haven’t corrupted Islam any more than the S.S. corrupted Nazism or the Kamikazes corrupted the culture of Imperial Japan. We have been fighting a war against the symptoms, not the source.

Prophet Of Doom


Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:27:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
when the koran talks about "unbelievers" and "idolaters", it's referring to the polytheistic arab religions of the time. it does not refer to jews and christians, who worship the same god as muslms, the "god of abraham and moses." the only passage there that is anti-christian or anti-jewish is 5:54. polytheists were considered heretics, and last time i checked no religion was historically friendly to those it considered heretics.

as i said before, historically polytheists had much to fear from islam, but jews and christians were generally tolerated and respected within the muslim sphere of influence.

So what the fuck happened?



muslims generally didn't have a huge problem with christians and jews until this.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:27:54 PM EDT
I cannot believe these threads have been tolerated as long as they have. This kind of talk is usually stomped pronto.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:28:40 PM EDT
Ummm I pick "B" Islam is a violent religion hell bent on world domination. Even the "moderate" Islamic nations have screwy wacked out laws. I want to be free, countries under Islamic law are not free.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:31:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
when the koran talks about "unbelievers" and "idolaters", it's referring to the polytheistic arab religions of the time. it does not refer to jews and christians, who worship the same god as muslms, the "god of abraham and moses." the only passage there that is anti-christian or anti-jewish is 5:54. polytheists were considered heretics, and last time i checked no religion was historically friendly to those it considered heretics.

as i said before, historically polytheists had much to fear from islam, but jews and christians were generally tolerated and respected within the muslim sphere of influence.

So what the fuck happened?



muslims generally didn't have a huge problem with christians and jews until this.



Yep, not the first group to wish the jews were extinct.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:31:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:31:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 7:31:43 PM EDT by thebeekeeper1]
See post.
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