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Posted: 1/19/2006 6:47:06 PM EDT
I am looking to pick up some OC spray for my two nieces. One is a sophmore in college and the other will be starting in the fall. Needs to be packaged small enough for them to carry all the time. If it becomes a hassle for them, I am afraid they will not carry it.

Suggestions.....
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 6:56:58 PM EDT
Defense Technology (Def-tec)is good stuff, as is Fox labs brand. I would go for a MK-6 size, that countains .68 oz of spray. VERY unpleasant stuff.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:07:40 PM EDT
I am thinking maybe I need to buy several different brands and test each one on my brother-in-law.

Seriously, thanks for the recommendation. Looking at the Mark 6, it seems to be a little larger than I would like. I do see they have a smaller version(Mark 7) that holds .35 oz. That leads to another concern. Will the smaller cannisters be enough. I would hate for them to need it and not have enough to do them any good.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:23:45 PM EDT
Def-Tec and Fox Labs are the best brands around that I know. When I went through OC instructor school I had to take a full hit from it.

When it comes to having enough, one of the smaller cans should be plenty. If your initial hit doesnt take effect, you can attempt a second one. However if the second one isnt having any effect, you need to be switching to something else. Of course, ideally after the initial spray the person with the spray should be haulig ass in the opposite direction.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 11:05:30 PM EDT
This is a little pricey, but it’s a nice keychain affair that takes refills. Note that a refill is only really good for one usage since it doesn’t hold much. There’s one version in about the middle of this page, and a smaller one at the bottom of the page: www.reddiamondonline.com/SearchResult.aspx?KeyWords=key%20defender&All=True

No matter what brand you get, also get an inert unit (if available) for them to practice with.

If you get them a spray (as opposed to stream type), remind them to not be downwind when using it.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 11:14:00 PM EDT
Fox
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 11:14:35 PM EDT
Sabre Red, after having been sprayed with that and (damn, cant remember the name) The Sabre stuff is uber nasty.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:19:55 AM EDT
Cap-stun is by far the best I have ever used.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:24:23 AM EDT
Freeze +P or punch
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:25:18 AM EDT
i carry a 2 ounce stream fox- there was a pretty convincing testimonial from one of our board members a while back about it. they have keychain units as well. also- the sudecon wipes would probably be a good idea- incase she does wind up getting misted by it.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:26:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 5:27:09 AM EDT by pale_pony]

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
Sabre Red, after having been sprayed with that and (damn, cant remember the name) The Sabre stuff is uber nasty.




+1
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:44:10 AM EDT
A 2 ounce can is still pretty small in size, i wouldnt want to carry any less then that. That shit goes pretty fast when you start spraying..
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:51:46 AM EDT
Fox, I've had first hand situation diffusal experience

Get the stream and not the fog though.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:34:21 AM EDT
I've got first hand experience on Sabre Red so I can only comment on that. My initial thoughts on it when I was going through it: Most. Painful. Experience. Ever.

On initial contact my eyes slammed shut and I could not open them without using my fingers to force my eyelids open to see. The burning sensation on my skin took a minute or so and the REAL pain started on decontamination. I was finally able to open my eyes on my own after about 10 minutes of flushing them with water. The burning on my skin felt like a 3rd degree sun burn for about 30-40 minutes. It faded but continued to be uncomfortable for a few hours. Not a pleasant experience so I feel confident in recommending the Sabre Red. This was a one second burst delivered in a stream straight to my open eyes by the way.

Speaking to others in the class that were hit with the Body Guard fogger they also experienced respiratory discomfort since they inhaled the fog (I was about 10 feet away in a very mild wind and was slightly effected by the fog as well). Victims of the fogger stated that it felt like sand in their eyes. No, thank you.

A small canister should be fine. It only takes one or two one second bursts and then high tail it out of the area.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:58:34 AM EDT
tagged, Ive been looking @ fox products
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 3:05:38 PM EDT
Thanks for all the suggestions. I had already planned on the inert units so that they would know what to expect. Any suggestions on who to order from?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 10:12:58 PM EDT
Kinda depends on which brand you want.

Anyway, here are some vendors I’ve had good experiences with. I forget who carries what brand of OC.

www.galls.com
www.reddiamondonline.com
www.qmuniforms.com

A few idle thoughts:

A spray type aerosol makes it easier to hit the target (more like a shotgun).
IMHO it is also overall more effective since it both takes out the eyes and is readily breathed, causing respiratory distress.

OTOH, a stream type aerosol has considerably longer range and is much less likely to be blown back on the victim by wind.

My personal view is that a spray type is a bit better suited for personal defense use (such as your nieces) while the stream type is a bit better for LE use (where it’s likely to be used at greater distances, where cross contamination is an issue, and where any lack of effectiveness is offset by the fact that the user is also packing a handgun!).

The best actuator IMHO is the type where you stick your thumb underneath a protective tab and simply press down. The actuator button that has to be rotated and then depressed is slow to deploy and less likely to be pointing in the correct direction when used. Unfortunately, most really small units use this second type of actuator.

OC aerosols will leak or explode if left in a hot car (esp. if left in direct sunlight).

After training with an OC aerosol, wash your hands before going to the rest room! Also wash your hands and/or take a shower with cool water. Hot water opens your skin pores and lets the OC in. (This is a mistake you’ll only make once!!)

If you want to give your nieces an introduction to OC without spraying them, spray some OC in a paper bag and let them take a whiff. Do this outside.

Some of the inert units contain chemicals that can make you a bit nauseous if you breathe them too heavily.

Note that in my experience OC gives a slightly delayed reaction. When first sprayed with it you don’t feel much; however, after about half a second you suddenly feel like an F-16 dropped a napalm canister on you!

Note also that some bad guys can fight through OC – your nieces shouldn’t expect OC to instantly stop everybody.

FWIW
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 10:49:29 PM EDT
I recommend stream to everyone.... and stay away from the foams and gels
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 10:58:11 PM EDT
FOX hands down. No really!! Hands down bitch!!
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:05:37 PM EDT
I got sprayed with Def-Tech.... and I bought some for a reason.

It felt like inflamed sand was thrown in my eyes. Couldn't open them for several minutes.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:07:32 PM EDT
Punch is pretty painful stuff...got hit with 10% and couldn't open my eyes for at least 45 mins, couldn't see for about 2 hours.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:11:03 PM EDT
Fox, plus the propellent is non-flamable
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:16:58 PM EDT
mk-3 is good stuff. It put me on my ass for about 30mins. I saw over 90 people get sprayed and it hurt all of them for at least 10min to 1 hour.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:16:58 PM EDT
Def-Tec also supplies a brand with non-flammable propelent. The oil based propelent causes a longer contamination timie though.....something you might want to consider unless you might be hitting the guy with a Taser after spraying him.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:39:30 PM EDT
Fox

Five point Three.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 7:34:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 199:
Kinda depends on which brand you want.

Anyway, here are some vendors I’ve had good experiences with. I forget who carries what brand of OC.

www.galls.com
www.reddiamondonline.com
www.qmuniforms.com

A few idle thoughts:

A spray type aerosol makes it easier to hit the target (more like a shotgun).
IMHO it is also overall more effective since it both takes out the eyes and is readily breathed, causing respiratory distress.

OTOH, a stream type aerosol has considerably longer range and is much less likely to be blown back on the victim by wind.

My personal view is that a spray type is a bit better suited for personal defense use (such as your nieces) while the stream type is a bit better for LE use (where it’s likely to be used at greater distances, where cross contamination is an issue, and where any lack of effectiveness is offset by the fact that the user is also packing a handgun!).

The best actuator IMHO is the type where you stick your thumb underneath a protective tab and simply press down. The actuator button that has to be rotated and then depressed is slow to deploy and less likely to be pointing in the correct direction when used. Unfortunately, most really small units use this second type of actuator.

OC aerosols will leak or explode if left in a hot car (esp. if left in direct sunlight).

After training with an OC aerosol, wash your hands before going to the rest room! Also wash your hands and/or take a shower with cool water. Hot water opens your skin pores and lets the OC in. (This is a mistake you’ll only make once!!)

If you want to give your nieces an introduction to OC without spraying them, spray some OC in a paper bag and let them take a whiff. Do this outside.

Some of the inert units contain chemicals that can make you a bit nauseous if you breathe them too heavily.

Note that in my experience OC gives a slightly delayed reaction. When first sprayed with it you don’t feel much; however, after about half a second you suddenly feel like an F-16 dropped a napalm canister on you!

Note also that some bad guys can fight through OC – your nieces shouldn’t expect OC to instantly stop everybody.

FWIW



Great information, thanks.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 10:09:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/21/2006 10:10:58 AM EDT by SheepDog_556]
/Aersol-based Chemical Irritant Instuctor hat on

I have been sprayed with:

Punch
Freeze
DefTec
SabreCapstun
CS
CN
Fox

Fox is by far the most unpleasant, with Sabre and DefTec coming in second.

Buy a stream, not a fog or foam. The most important aspect of a good OC is it's SHU number....Skoville Heat Units. For example....FOX has both 5 mil and 10 mil SHU products....SabreRed is 2 million SHUs. DefTec is 5 Mil, iirc.

Keep in mind that an alcohol-based irritant WILL catch on fire, if you say....toss a flash-bang in the window after launching 15 or so 37mm cannisters into the house.


/Aresol-based Chemical Irritanant Instructor hat off


Sheep
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 12:22:53 PM EDT
Def-Tec, This is what I used while in the USMC. It was not fun stuff. I have been sprayed with it 2x and would rather go through the gas chamber with out a gas mask than get sprayed again.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 1:49:43 PM EDT
Sabre Red CS/OC Mix, in either foam or gel mix
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 2:07:13 PM EDT
whatever you do , dont ask for this advice in the Brothers of the Shield Forum.

Lebrew

Link Posted: 1/21/2006 2:15:36 PM EDT
I carry a can of 2oz Fox stream-type. I used to have some 2.3mil SHU First Defence spray in keychain size but decided to upgrade to the Fox brand.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 2:21:15 PM EDT
It all depends on if you want to stop people or dogs. I don't have any experience with people and the 2% Fox, but I have used the 35% Halt on dogs and it works like a charm. The best one was an angry pit bull that was aggressively attacking me. Halt stopped it dead in its tracks. My first impression is that I would change my protection strategy and carry Halt to protect against dogs and other wild animals. I would be interested to hear from those who teach the OC protection to get their thoughts.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:13:12 PM EDT
What size of Fox would be easy to carry on a belt? Not to bulky, I don’t want to look like Dog the Bounty Hunter
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:24:44 PM EDT
Boys and Girls, I have been an OC instructor since 1994. I have been hit with MSI, Punch, Freeze, Cap-Stun, Def-Con you name it. The one and only single one to have any effect on me at all was Fox. The Fox is made to a different concentraction of heat to pepper and trust me, 5 years in the military and almost 8 years as a cop Fox has never failed me. I will make a promise to you that if your Fox dosent work I will buy the rest of the can back from you.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 5:23:41 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 5:26:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jmboom:
Cap-stun is by far the best I have ever used.



I like Cap-Stun
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 6:25:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SheepDog_556:
/Aersol-based Chemical Irritant Instuctor hat on

I have been sprayed with:

Punch
Freeze
DefTec
SabreCapstun
CS
CN
Fox
Sheep



Holy crap, I don't want your job.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 7:39:43 PM EDT
Cap-Stun! This stuff was symphoned directly from the anus of Beezlebub himself. Made the other stuff seem like gentle breeze on a warm Springs day. After a nice blast from 3 inches, the reaction should be "affective".
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 8:17:24 PM EDT
What about the combo stuff with OC/mace/tear mixed together?
www.pimall.com/nais/mace.html
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