Posted: 7/5/2005 11:42:03 PM EDT
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It's actually so obvious I can't understand why anyone ever really tried it and kept making more attempts for almost 100 years. Communism as an "idea" is not really a bad idea and many of us practice a form of communism in our lives. Basically "communism" (and I'm talking polirical communism not ideological communism) is the establishment of the concept of "community" as a basis for government. When church members band together to support and fund a church that is a kind of "communism." When neighborhoods get together and act in their collective interests that is a kind of "communism." And when a bunch of guys go on a hunting trip and share the costs that is a kind of "communism." And in those examples it works. And the reason it works is accountability. Everyone KNOWS that everyone contributes. And that is why Communism fails everytime it is tried on anything larger than a small community. Because there is NO accountability. There is no way of guaranteeing that EVERYONE contributes. And in Communist countries that is the problem. Not everyone contributes equally and there is no way to make them do it. You will always, always, always have people who contribute less for various reasons (they lack the skills, intelligence or goods to make an equal contribution). And this means everyone lives at or about the level of the "least" contributor. It is kind of like going out to dinner with 10 people (4 of which are doctors who have money and 6 of which are broke ass college students). If everyone makes an "equal" contribution you will be eating at McDonalds. And that is why Communist countries see McDonalds as "fine dining." Now Capitalism in comparisson is a much harsher system of government. Basically it says "you need this much amount of money to play." But THAT is the accountability. There is no way to go around and make sure everyone is making an "equal" contribution. But if things cost money then you have some accountability. If somebody wants something, they need to cough up the cash for it. And to get the money they MUST contribute somehow. Now granted some people rob and scam to get their money but if you think it's bad in this country you should see some of the scams and criminal enterprises in a Communist country. So to summarize...Communism as a political system is a really stupid idea that will always fail. |
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Actually the mantra of Communism really says it all. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the underproducers of society will have "needs" that exceed their contribution. That brings the quality of life for the producers down. In the end, the reasons Communism would always fail are simple. If you get the same as everyone else....why bother to excel at anything? If working in a grocery store pays the same as being a doctor, why bother to waste all that effort to become a doctor? Communism stifles competition in a reward motivated species. At least, that's my theory. |
You couldn't be more wrong. When church members band together to fund a church, they do so because they all have a stake in the church and want it to succeed. No one is pointing guns to their heads and confiscating their money to pay for the church. In this respect, a church is more like a corporation and is nothing like communism. When neighborhoods get together to act in collective interests, they do so because they want to ensure high property values and thus higher eventual profits. again, a corporation, not communism. no one is pointing a gun to your head and forcing you to paint your house a certain color. when a bunch of guys go on a hunting trip, they are each paying for their own way but just paying it all together out of convenience. not communism. no one is pointing a gun to your head and taking your money and then forcing you to go on the hunting trip. |
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I don't think the parallels are wrong at all. In fact, a corporation/church/group is a collective that attempts to attain one goal. That sounds a lot like communism to me. As far as reasons for communism failing, I don't think that it is simply accountability that causes it to fail. Humans are simple creatures that like pleasure and want to avoid pain. Fear and greed are the two biggest motivators. In communism, there is not much reason to be greedy because you can only gain so much. The bigger motivator here is fear of getting dragged off to a Siberian gravel factory. In contrast, in a capitalistic economy, greed is the bigger motivator because of all the pleasures that can be attained. By busting ass, I can make millions and have a presidential suite at the top of the Belagio with a hundred hookers, a ton of nose candy and surf and turf for everyone in Vegas. The motivation of getting a reward (pleasure) instead of punishment (pain) will always be greater. That is why communism will never be more sucessful capitalism. I think it was Winston Churchill who said: "The inherent flaw of capitalism is that there is an unequal distribution of blessings. The inherent virtue of socialism is that everyone shares in misery equally." |
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i assume that you mean the politics of leninist totalitarianism never works. the ideology of communism works incredibly well. just ask the sioux, apache, or cheyenne. or, for that matter, ask a member of the US military, which is a perfect model of communist ideology. your root point, though, is correct. for communism to work, it must be exclusionary. this is why leninist "communism" was doomed from the beginning. you cannot force someone into a "commune". you can only enforce the communist ideal by excluding those who do not contribute. |
Pretty much why Libertarianism is doomed to failure as well. |
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 Shoot...if I could get my kids to work together I'd consider that glorious! |
Libertarianism ASSumes human good will. Its basic principle is give people freedom to do most anything they want. But people are basically corrupt. Know the difference between the Libertarian and the big gov't liberal? Time, and access to power. That's all. The present day Republican party is proof of that. |
Now, everything after Lines #1 and 2 are true. Not because those people were corrupt by nature, but because they became corrupted. |
Well, my understanding of human nature is based on Biblical teaching. That aside, the Universal Truth of Life #7 remains true - "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Even Libertarians.  |
I am confused here G-Man...see, the bible they taught me was that man was made in God's image. I was not taught that all men were corrupt. Born {supposedly} with original sin, but not corrupt. |
I'm not sure I agree with that. |
Exactly! Take here in Good Ol Socialist Britain… I make good money, I pay a lot of tax, I get little back… I hate that. My Son in law is a lazy fuckstick and makes crap money, but is given lots of social handouts to enable him to 'met his needs' …so his effective income matches mine, so he is rewarded for being lazy and too idle to get a better paying job… I hate that more. ANdy |
Created perfect, and in God image. But Adam sinned in exercising his free will against the commands of God, and as his offspring we all have his sin nature. The sin nature that is in us ALWAYS evidences itself in corrupt actions. |
Well that whole original sin thing??? Sorry...Don't buy it. If I did, I'd have to believe in Limbo again And Purgatory And a buncha other Catholic Dogma and teachings which (TO ME) <notice how that sentiment is STRESSED???? make no sense. |
Alot of people don't.
Alot of "Catholic dogma" is to my reading unBiblical. NOT interested in making this a Catholic vs. Bible thread. |
Me neither...I barely made it outta Catholic school with my sense of humour still intact... 
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I said it is a "kind" of communism based upon the concept of "community." I never said it was identical to ideological communism where contributions are "collected" and participation is mandatory. It was an "example" of a "concept." |
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The difference can be summed up in how "Greed" is channeled. Everyone is greedy to some extent even communists. In a communist state there is no legal way for a greedy person to become rich so he enters politics and corrupts the system. In a capitalist system, greed is channeled through business and free enterprise, a person who wants to become rich has a legal means to accomplish this. So he works to provide a service or a product which people will pay for. His drive for money is channeled for productive ends. Money attracts talent and rewards the successful, and wa-la! you have competition and with rules and some regs to keep the pursuit of wealth on the up and up. |
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The real failure of communism is that it rewards nonproductivity. Pure capitalism rewards only productivity. There is no incentive in a communist system to strive for anymore than the barest minimum. You won't make more money if you work harder/better/more effeciently. You won't be any better off. So, the best you can expect is mediocre performance in all endeavors. That, only to avoid punishment. That's why quality control, and productivity are usually lacking in their system. With the exception of military hardware, they put some effort into that. I don't think it is wrong to take care of those who cannot produce, it is socialist, but appropriate. It's the reward for non producers that is wrong. |