[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Billy Graham...Fraud? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 6/26/2005 11:19:36 PM EDT
| Is he just a glorified snake charmer and loud mouth? |
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He has not yet been caught sticking his Jimmy into skanky prostitutes, unlike the other two Jimmys of the professed Evangelical bent. Nor has he been indicted for embezzling vast amounts of cash. He also does not try to branch out into being the moral police. All very good things. I get the idea that he is a man of real conviction and faith. I don't really get the whole Apocalyptic Anticipation gig. It is kind of like the SHTF folks. I mean, Mel Tappan was predicting the imminent demise of civilization back before 1980. So people stocked up on C-rations, HK91s for $600 and underground tanks full of gasoline. Then there was Y2K. Don't people get tired of getting left holding the bag? There is nothing wrong with being prepared, but allocating 35% of one's existence towards something that keeps on getting set back seems a bit much. |
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Yea He's a fraud, an deceiver, double standard, etc. An friend of my moms back years ago was on an plane with him. And she asked Billy, "why dont you tell the truth?". He said "because there isnt any money in it". Jesus said that also. Jesus could have did as Billy does. Jesus never made a dime off of telling the truth. He told His followers to do the same. Jesus never had any body guards either. None of His people do to this very day. This was on tv years ago. Billy was asked, "what is the kingdom?". Billy said "God loves you". Man if that isnt side stepping I dont know what is. A man that claims to know so much about the bible cant even tell anyone what the bible is all about. Billy rarely if ever says Gods name. When God said, "if you are ashamed of me, I shall be ashamed of you". When there is no more perfect time than to say it, than on national tv. Billy is pretty much fools gold. |
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I don't have a strong opinion of the man one way or the other, but I heard something interesting on the news today. Billy Graham was speaking, he said (I can't quote exactly), that he's not worried about death, he may die very soon or not, but one thing he "knows". He's going "straight to heaven" where he will be in the presence of Jesus. Well, isn't that special. Billy Graham doesn't have to stand in judgement. He's a high enough power to judge himself! Why bother God with the task? Me thinks that perhaps God might want to judge Billy's sins of pride and hubris. 
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Well, my sister's roomate's uncle once met Billy Graham and.... |
 Dont let facts get in the way with truth. You Jesus/God bashers need to take a day off every once in awhile. Or at least be honest and rename the thread- Lets get together and bash Jesus/God. You guys are just as tolerant as the dims. |
Ok. So I should believe the testimony of someone your mom knows that claims to have met him once.... Sure.
I must wonder what seminary you attended, or what theological training you have had before I can even begin to address your "objections". |
IF Billy Graham has his sin under the blood. IF Billy Graham has spent his life trying to faithfully serve the call that God has given him. THEN Billy Graham WILL go directly to heaven. He will be judged for deeds done in the body when the rest of the faithful are judged. That "judgement" is about those who are in Christ giving an account before God of all their lives since being saved. But if you mean the heaven/hell judgement, that judgement has already been made for Rev. Graham. If his faith is genuine (and I have no reason to doubt the veracity of it whatsoever, quite the contrary) then he is already God's child and has every right to expect to see the face of God very soon after he leaves this mortal body behind. |
One of the key points of Christianity is that Jesus took the penalty for our sins upon Himself. As for where Graham stands in that regard, it's between him and God. He's been too ecumenical for me. I tend to be a pretty hardline Reformed theology kind of guy with little room for compromise. When it comes to my sins, they have been judged and paid for at the cross. No pride or hubris there. It's actually a very humbling thing, to know what I cost Him and that He willingly paid it. No greater love... |
Bingo. Christ will judge those that are His servants. It is not our place. Personally, I find no fault in Rev. Graham. I do not necessarily agree with all his statements, beliefs, or even think some of his associations have always been wise, but as soon as I am perfect I will start complaining. I have heard him preach Christ, the cross, and the message of salvation in no uncertain terms. How well he has filled the office God ordained for him is a matter for God to decide. His judgement is faithful and true, discerning the heart and intent of man. Mine is limited and external, and is therefore of no use. |
Does it? I guess when Ananias went to a man named Saul lots of people could have called him a fraud and an enemy. Graham saw his role as providing spiritual guidance and leadership to people in general, and last I checked the Clintons are still people. No, I don't like their politics or very much about them at all, but I cannot fault Graham for trying to be pastorly to them. |
Yes, he is dying. He announced that this weekend's crusade is going to probably be his last because of his failing health. That is why Rev. Graham is in the national headlines. Ministry is hard, and his body shows the results of a life spent trying to bear the weight of God's word to the masses. |
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The interesting thing about Rev. Graham is that the media is trying to "spin" him. I heard an idiot from Newsweek talk about how Rev. Graham is not a "divisive" figure because he is not "dogmatic" and is "welcoming" of other religions, insinuating that Rev. Graham has taught that there are other paths to God besides Christ. With my own two ears, however, I have seen Rev. Graham preach Christ as THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life. That without Christ there is eternal seperation from God. The tactic is not new. Satan tempted Christ with moral sins, but Christ did not fall. Satan attacked Christ by the sharp tongues of the pharisees, but still Christ stood. Then Satan resorted to his best weapon, twisting the words of Christ to create a seemingly similar idea, but one that utterly dismisses the reality that Christ taught. The western media is now doing the very same thing to Billy Graham, touting him as a champion of homosexual marriage and other silly notions, extracting their own meanings from the words he has said rather than letting the man's words speak for themselves. It ought to be very instructive to us all. There are those who think Graham is a liberal traitor to the faith. Others think him to be a hell-fire and damnation legalist, seeking to condemn people to hell. Some think he is almost God-like, while others think him the devil himself. This is a man who lives in our time and who has his record established for any curious person to examine, and yet the different ideas abound. Some wonder how, if Jesus was truly Messiah, how could the world disagree? When right in front of our eyes there is a man who is eminently knowable and yet rumors and silliness abound. Why? Because many people, in the end, think what they WANT to think about Rev. Graham. They re-make him in the mold they consider useful. Jesus experienced the same thing. It was no wonder He asked His disciples, "who do YOU say that I am?" The spite against Rev. Graham from some circles, the desire of others to co-opt his name to endorse their agenda rather than the one he stood for, his repeated defiance of convention and expectation all seem to remind me of a Nazarene who walked 2,000 years ago.... |
its sad to watch people who KNOW the media demonizes gun owners by outright lies and misinformation SWALLOW WHOLE the media portrayal of a preacher of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just so they can deceive themselves into beleiving God isn't God, and His word isn't true. |
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While I might not always agree with his politics or his friends, he is beyond reproach as far as his finances, [he has it as public domain, and takes a salary, not a percentage] has never dallied, [he ALWAYS has another person with him and NEVER see's a woman alone.] and even tho he has had more then a few attack dogs looking for ANYTHING to nail him on, except for his remarks 40 years ago they ain't found diddly-squat. When he passes, he will stand before the ultimate power and THAT decision will be the only one that means anything. |
Indeed. I have seen several of Rev. Graham's messages. I have never once seen anything preached but the truth. And yet there is an attempt afoot to re-write his history to make him into something he is not and has never been. And people do not notice. They do not notice because they did not pay attention when he was speaking. They did not hear what he said. Martin Luther King Jr. is another excellent example. Having heard and read his own words, I can see in them nothing objectionable. Yet modern day pretenders to his intellectual throne push for things that defy the very principles he spoke so forcefully for. But no one pays attention to what he said, so they don't notice. It is an insidious plot that re-defines men based on "taste" rather than allowing the words of those men to speak for themselves. They have done it with the founders. They have done it with Christ. They have grown so bold that before our very eyes they try to do it with people like Rev. Graham. But no one pays attention to what he said, so they don't notice. |
Indeed, one of them even pulled a sword and went after the temple guards that came to arrest Jesus. They even had the audacity to try and keep children away from Christ on occasion. But don't let Biblical truth get in the way of what anyone thinks..... Silly Catholic! Bible verses are for kids! 
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Ah. Referring to our friend who posted that Jesus was broke and had no "body guards" despite scripture saying that Jesus wore a seemless robe (nice stuff....The Romans didn't gamble for a rag, you know...) and that Jesus' disciples carried weapons and defended their Lord. As I said, don't let scripture get in the way of his fantasy. You Catholics are always trying to bring some silly scripture into religious debates..... 
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I don't think he's a fraud at all. His ministries preach the Gospel so far as I know, and he's above board on things. He's one of the few large ministries my wife and I have donated to, well that and Samaritan's Purse. There is a tremendous pressure on ministers. Moreso than most other leaders- regular leaders lead our mortal bodies. Ministers must guide our immortal souls as well. From what I've seen, Billy Graham has led well. If Graham's confident in going to heaven it's only because he has lived a good life, done good things, and in his estimation, he'll be talking to Jesus when he dies. |
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I've met three powerful religious figures in my life; Pope John Paul II, Mother Theresa and Rev. Graham. IMHO, they are all cut from the same cloth. I'm used to Catholic bashing, but I'm honestly amazed to see people attacking Rev. Graham. He has brought the Good News of Jesus to a LOT of folks. |
There are more cannibals on church pews than there ever were in deep dark Africa. Discerning the Lord's Body is about more than just the communion cup and bread....But many don't realize that. |
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I responded to a thread that started yesterday about Bill Graham, so instead of typing out another post, I'll just lift that post and re-post it here (my opinions haven't changed in 24 hours). I have to admit my eyes bugged out today, when I read this (Graham's comments about the Clintons) in the morning paper. How about a little perspective here, before pillorying him any further? Billy Graham has been the single greatest evangelist of our times, bar none. The fact that his crusades now appear on television does not make him a televangelist. The most remarkable thing about his preaching is the consistency of his message: he preaches the Gospel, salvation by faith through Christ alone (not of works), and does so in a plain and simple style that can be understood by all. The few times he has gotten himself in trouble is when he veers from that message. About fifteen or twenty years ago, he created a fuss when he said that Christians could worship in Russia as freely as in America, as a result of the end of communism. That was an obvious misstatement, as was acknowledged by himself years later. It created a mild furor,, and rightly so. In his lifetime, he's been available to all U.S. Presidents, regardless of political party. There are few men who could ever claim to be so impartial and non-judgemental as Billy Graham, and willing to make themselves available to those men who are in a position to influence world events. It's that same style that makes him a man to be trusted by leaders of both political parties, and other countries. My point is that Billy Graham has never been a man who was interested in involving himself with politics, neither at home or internationally. His only reason for living is to preach the Gospel-day in, day out, year in, year out. His son Franklin, I'm sure is well aware of the impact his father's comments have made, and how they could be used and manipulated by people like the Clinton's. I doubt that we'll see a flat out apology on his father's behalf, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Franklin or a spokesman from Billy Graham Ministries offer a "clarification" of some sort in the coming days. Above all, how about we offer some grace to a man who is 86 years of age, and suffering from hydro-cephalism (water on the brain), cancer and Parkinson's Disease? You can be sure this was not a scripted moment for this man, who has worked tirelessly all his life to deliver a message of hope and salvation to the world, regardless of race, denomination, or financial standing. His ministries finances have always been a matter of public record, and are above suspicion of any sort. I'd hate to see that this ill-chosen and off the cuff comment would be the defining moment of this remarkable man's life. |
Bingo. When a microphone is continually before your face, you will say something stupid. And the people who don't have enough common sense to realize that and offer a little lee-way are people who resent you anyway and who are waiting with nails and 2x4s to have their own little crucifixion with you as the guest of honor. |
Throwing the first stone speaks of rendering judgement. When Jesus said that, He was illustrating that the pharisees who would punish the adulterous woman were just as much sinners as she was, and probably even worse. Thus stoning her would be stoning themselves and cementing judgement for themselves. As God said, "I desire mercy, and not sacrifice." (Hosea 6:6) |
He was also a close personal friend of Ronald Reagan's who was supposed to officiate at his funeral last year but poor health prevented that. His religious advice was sought by every President, from both parties, as far back as I can remember (Johnson). |
He's never involved himself with politics, and as I wrote earlier, his message hasn't changed much in his long career. His son Franklin is much more attuned to the political ramifications of what is said (both by himself and his father), and is more media-savvy. And FWIW, Franklin like his handguns! 
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