Posted: 5/2/2005 9:04:43 AM EDT
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OK, it's time to tap the Hive Mind. I am in the process of buying a new home. It shall have some kind of gun storage. Ideally, I would love to have a safe room built in the basement with cinder-block walls, armored door, etc. Unfortunately, the house doesn't have a basement, so that idea is out. So, I am now limited to spending $2500+ to buy a safe (which will be bolted to the floor in the garage) or building a safe room somewhere on the second floor. They both have their pros and cons: Safe Pros: No manufacturing needed. Very secure. Quite fire resistant. (I'd most likely bet a Liberty Lincoln). Safe Cons: Has to be in the garage. Not as roomy as a safe room. Obvious what you keep in it/hard to hide. Room Pros: Easy to build without giving away what you're doing. Very roomy. Relatively inexpensive. Room Cons: Not as secure or fireproof as a safe. Can't take it with you (which may be a GOOD thing). So, here's the "contest" (the reward is knowing you helped your fellow ARFCOM-ers): How would you build a safe room on a second floor of a frame house. Restrictions as follows: - You cannot order an armored door (such as Liberty's). For that, I'll buy a safe. - You can only use materials which one person can move and work with alone. - The tools required must be readily available (i.e. - no arc-welders and the like) - The room must be as burglar- and fireproof as possible, with the full understanding that given enough time or heat, the room WILL fail at some point. I don't need it to be impregnable, or to withstand a nuclear fireball. I need it to slow a burglar down for a decent while and to prevent anything short of a conflagration from burning the contents. Oh, it should look as innocent as possible from the outside. So there it is. My BIL has designed stuff like this for the .gov, and he'll be helping me with some design ideas, but I want to hear what you guys have to say on the matter. Enjoy! |
Believe it or not, I had actually considered looking into halon, but CO2 will do!  Aw, WTH..... Let me give you my ideas... - Aluminum-stud walls, with the studs doubled and spaced about a foot to 18 inches apart. - Steel rebar inserted horizontally within the studs (through the very convenient holes in the studs). Hopefully the rebar would be spaced about 12-18 inches from floor to ceiling. - Fireproof insulation between the studs. - Steel mesh over the studs on both sides. - A layer of either fire-rated drywall or a layer of durock with a layer of drywall over it. Both sides. - Ceiling would have the wire mesh and the durock/drywall combination. The floor would have the wire mesh, the durock, and be finished with hardwood. - The door: Well, the door is a problem, isn't it? Needless to say, there would also be claymores, cyanide gas (the real stuff, not troll farts), laser beams, and pungi pits.
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| With CO2, you can buy in bulk cheaply, you won't be cleaning up anything and it won't kill the environment. At around 9 cu ft per pound of CO2, depending on your vault construction, a 25lb tank could completely displace a 9'x9'x9' roomfull of air 25 times before being refilled. If you triggered the tank, you'd need an initial deluge of gas, then just enough to maintain positive pressure. |
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different angle - cuould you "hide" the safe room. Once the burglar finds a locked door, they are going to be curious (my house got broken into a second time because the first time the burglar was not equiped do deal with my safe). anyway, seems like the rest of my reply is already a dupe... anyway, normal drywall has a fairly slow burn through. bet if you sandwiched 3/4 ply between two drywall sheets, (not to mention the single sheet on the other side of the standard 2x4 interior wall) you could get very nice burn through and have a fairly stout wall. If you used cement board (say for the inside layer) the burnthorugh would still be great, but the thief would really dull his saw cutting an openeing. The 3/4 ply is mostly to prevent easy access (slow down the crow bar), drywall and cement board I fear are fairly brittle. Oh, just for info - I went through an apartment fire. No interior walls burned through - the fire went apartment to apartment via the roof and near roof windows (the heat would blow out the windows, and the fire would come in. I lost my loft, but it did not make it to my living room floor (just ceiling). Anyway, that is why I think fire first. |
The math there is slightly off, 9x9x9 = 729 Cu Ft 25 x 9 cu ft = 225 Cu Ft 729 / 9 = 81 lbs needed. (all this assuming the room is actually that size) EDIT: but to get back on topic, a few weeks ago someone posted pics of a safe room they built into their new home. Might want to try a search. |
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You saw this thread, right? www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=309912 Maybe something there you can get an idea from... |
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I wouldn't go with anything integral to the house (ala safe room) UNLES it was poured concrete. Not fire proof. And I can go thru cinder block walls, even with poured flutes, in about 30 seconds with a sledge hammer. I'd go with the safe, bolted to the floor, preferrably cleverly disgusied into your house so a perp would never find it. |
That was a custom-built, cinder-block construction prior to the home going up. Beautiful, but not practical in my case. That will be later in life! 
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Definitely an option, although I really have no way of hiding the room in a manner which won't trip off someone in terms of, "Hey! There's a lot of space behind these walls not accounted for by what I can see...." |
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Is the garage attached or detatched? Is this an existing structure, or are you building the whole place? If you're on the second floor, you'll need to reinforce the floor and ceiling as well for weight and fire. I'd add-on to the garage. Everyone would think you're just adding a shed or more storage space to it. Concreate pad, concreate blocks with rebar and concreate poured into the space, industrial heavy duty fire door with really good locks on the inside of the garage. Alarm the garage. Way more than $2500 though. Ross |
You know, I COULD do that, but I think the expense would be prohibitive. The garage is attached, and has an area where I could put it (a room about the size of the one linked above), but I'd rather have the room inside the house if possible. Besides, I'd still have to reinforce the walls, although the floor would be taken care of... |
Because they'd have to cut through the outside walls? The ceiling in this case would be the roof of the house, and facing the street. Relatively busy street, too. It would raise lots of eyebrows.... |
Bingo. More like SEVERAL hundred pounds. Also, the garage give the best anchoring for a safe. Far better than bolting to wood. Besides, I don't have to worry about weight issues on concrete. |
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I'm very interested in how this discussion goes. My new house has a somewhat small storage area (10'x15') downstairs which I want to turn into some type of 'safe' room, one where I can store firearms, valuables, paper documents, etc. I don't want to spend the money to make it a vault, but I'd like a secure room which would slow a burglar down considerably. It won't be a safe room for people because it's at the opposite end of the house from the bedrooms. You'd have to get by the BG before you could get to the room. My concerns are: 1) What type of door and lock is needed for it to be secure, but cost effect. I want it to have a look similar to the pine doors elsewhere, both for aesthetic reasons and to help hide its purpose. Would a deadbolt lock be sufficient? 2) Securing the wall - I'm looking into regular drywall on outside with a metal mesh between the inner drywall and studs. It will prevent them cutting or kicking their way through the wall. 3) Humidity control in that area. Since firearms will be stored there, I don't want that to be a problem. How should humidity be controlled? I don't think simply putting in an air vent will solve the problem. A regular dehumidifier needs to get rid of the water, but there isn't a drain nearby. I don't think a Goldenrod dehumidifier will do the job. 4) Water leakage - there's a water line to an outside spigot that goes through the ceiling in that room. I'd want to see if there's a way to prevent leakage while still giving access to the line in case of a repair need. 5) Fire suppression - I think I'll save my money and forgo any type of fire suppression. If the fire is gettting into that room, the house is engulfed and it's falling into the basement. 10 minutes of suppression won't help. Any comments or suggestions? Thanks. |
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I like the idea of the hardibacker (if this is the stuff that you put down before you tile a surface, anyway) too. You basically need a carbide tipped saw blade to get through it with any authority. The other stuff you mentioned is good too. At first I was going to champion putting a big, quality safe in the garage with a dehumidifier inside. But the more I thought about it, the more I thought about how far away it is. I like the idea of being closer rather than farther from the toys. |
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Hidden Doors, Secret Passages and Safe Rooms www.cafepress.com/hiddendoorplans www.hiddendoors.com/ |
 Yeah, that's rich! The other reason I'm not too keen on having the safe room in the garage is that I WILL have all kinds of tools there. Not smart. Besides, I'd rather have the arsenal on MY side of the line of scrimage, you dig? 
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8" cmu fully grouted will get you a two hour fire separation (much longer than some safes on the market). Build safe room at a slab on grade area of the house (garage). -provide concrete footings (top of footing 8" below finish floor elevation, minimum size 1'-8" wide x 10" deep (depends on soil conditions and local codes)) -build 8" cmu walls w/ (2)-#4 reinforcing bars in every cell (one each face), grout cells full (the reinforcing is more for security than strength) -construct roof of safe room out of a reinfored concrete slab. Minimum thickness = 4 3/4" to maintain two hour fire separation. Slab will require reinforcing and the amount of reinforcing depends on the size of the safe room. -provide fire separation door. this item could be the weak ling in this construction. I am not sure if two hour doors are available. -provide outlets and lights on the inside. consult local code on how to install to maintain two hour construction. -optional-provide conditioning in room. if wall is penetrated with duct work, penetration will have to be fire proofed. -optional-add horizontal reinforcing to cmu walls (adds expense to the construction, another layer of steel to cut through for the would be thief) Estimate: excavate for footings: $2/lineal foot (depends on footing size) concrete and reinforcing for footings: $274/cubic yard cmu wall: $7/square foot (add for horizontal reinforcing) average 5" thick reinforced concrete slab: $6/square foot (depends on span and forms) door: $350 outlets/lights/conduit/etc.: $ conditioning w/ required fire proofing: $ |
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I asked the question because you gave no reason in your post. Most houses I have seen in the past 20 years or so have had concrete floors. Ypu mentioned building a safe room which may also be very heavy, possibly heavier than the safe, but it does make sence that if you build it in place you could carry each piece through the house as you build. I have moved some very heavy safes by myself when they are on a flat surface of concrete. |
You misunderstood me. I was worried about putting a safe on a second floor due to the weight. I also specified that I could not build with brick, cinder block, or cement on the second floor due to weight, hence the need to use drywall and the like. |
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somewhat smaller, and maybe a bit obvious - but what are you doing with the space under the staircase? I am still trying to figure out a clean way to have hidden (easy) access to that unused space in my house. My masterbedroom (upstairs) has the masterbath and closet on an outside wall. Without a tape measure there is almost no way I could tell if the back of the long closet is 1 or 2 foot shorter than the outside wall. Likewise, the end of a hallway could easily be a little short, or the like. People see what they want to see. Inconsitancy could easily go unnoticed if it is consceivable that the space is just a closet from a different room. |
*Sigh* I guess there's got to be SOME reason I live here ... 'cause the humidity sure isn't it |
The closer the better I think. My primary safe is in the basement. To me, that is too far away, but the wife doesn't want it upstairs in the living room. Personally, I think with a little wax the safe would look great in the living room.
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I think you are on the right track with the safe room. Re-inforced walls and all, but I can't understand why you would forgo the safe type door for the room unless it's the money factor.(then I understand) I know this is a little hokie looking,Ok,real hokie, but have a look here. Good luck on your build. www.wholesalegate.com/doorgates.html |
I had my safe in Miami in the garage with just a goldenrod dehumidifier. Never had a problem with rust. |
It's the money. For what the door costs, I can get a safe, and save myself the cost and work of constructing the rest of the room. I am told that a solid-core wood door will give up to 1 hour of fire protection. Even assuming that's true, I'd have to find a way or reinforcing the door against burglars. It would such if they took my cordless saw and just cut their way in. 
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Yep. No denying it. If the floor goes, then goodbye everything else.
Anything special? Can one of those be found at Home Depot? |
You could get the solid door and get steel plate 1/16 thick and screw it in with one way screws . To make it even more secure you could do the same to both sides of the door. Also hinges have to be reienforced. The only real down fall of this is the holes to be cut for the handle and dead-bolt(s) |
Well, I'm not entirely sure I'd get a crappy room for the same money. I think I'd get a more comfortable setup with the tradeoff being some security, but not too much. At this point, I'm trying to get an idea of the materials options so I can then run a reasonable estimate and compare it to a safe (or two). Personally, I prefer the safe room at first glance. Just want to be sure that glance is accurate. |
| for theft portection doors are a weak point. use a steal door and steal frame. On your framing in the stud wall for the door take one of the heavyer steel studs and insert a standard 2X into it when framing the wall this will add to the strength of the frame work holding the door into place. Lots of good ideas here you just have to pick and choose what fits your needs |
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My hangup is finding a metal door and frame that is 30" wide and can be had for <$500. The area required for the rough in just isn't there without moving king studs and such. I think I'm gonna have to look harder or just have one made. Check these doors out: Rediframe Metal Doors and Frames Ceco Metal Hurricane Door Total Hurricane Door How about 3/4" plywood on horizontal around the room and ceiling? Lay it over the current drywall and drywall 1/4" over that? Secure with 3.5" deck screws. Re-enforce the point of entry with Simpson Stong Tie brand hold downs. Probably work best on the first floor They do have holdowns for multiple story dwellings. ...hang your door and your on your way. PHD Predeflected Holdowns |