[ARCHIVED THREAD] - This Minuteman Project..... (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/10/2005 9:28:57 AM EDT
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Guys, Please enlighten me, As A Brit Arfcommer, I have no real idea how big the illegal immigrant problem is in the US. I read on here about the Minuteman Project and have always known that there has been problems along the US's border with Mexico, but how big a problem is it. What kind of numbers are we talking about? How many cross over, how many get caught?? Is it as violent and dangerous as it's made out to be??? Enquiring minds want to know Thanks Mark |
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Oct. 1 - Dec 31, 2004 there were 97,731 apprehensions in Arizona. That's more than half of the Border Patrol's 186,713 apprehensions all along the Mexican border in that time period. Lot of crime, drugs, illegal smuggling, violence along the border. Car theft is a major problem in Arizona, along with uninsured drivers, property crimes. You can read some good background here www.azstarnet.com/sn/border/ |
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Illegal immigrants is a major problem all along the souther USA border with Mexico. I personally don't have any first hand experience with the illegal aliens in other states, but here in Southern Californial, about 125miles/140Km south of Los Angeles, on the road U.S. Interstate highway #5 near San Diego California, which is the main highway traversing the state going north/south, there are signs warning of illegel aliens crossing, this high speed highway where automobiles are travelling in the 80MPH/100kmh range, and of course some of those people were killed. The illegal aliens take advantage of free medical services in the USA. Many expectant moms travel to the USA so that their babies can be born free of charge, and they are automatically USA citizens. The free medical care is so burdensome, that many hospitals have closed down. Here in Los Angeles County, which comprises of many cities, we had to pass a special tax to keep our trauma centers open because so much public money was diverted to the hospital system. Unfortunately it was ruled illegal by the US Supreme Court(our highest court of the land) that you must supply medical to the illegal immigrants. A few years ago, the predecessor to the Minuteman, Ranch Rescue was watching the borders, but was shut down because the USA defined them a as terrorist organization and its founders were thrown in prison. |
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I was talking with people in London a couple years ago and they were complaining about British illegal immigrants and they were legal immigrants. At least 5% of the current population of the US is illegal immigrants, most from Latin America. It wasn't such a big drain on the economy when it was just workers, but now it is their whole families. Courts require us to give them free education. |
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Another report from a Minuteman Volunteer Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 Robin is a Minuteman participant from Southern California who just returned from Arizona. She has a different format of report but still offers lots of interesting observations. That they're much different than the usual news reports tells you how slanted the mainstream news is. Also, the people who own the Bible College where the MInutemen set up their communications center told us that Arizona's governor wrote them a letter advising that they're on her blacklist (whatever that means). It's located on Arizona state highway 92, and MMP volunteers reported lots of state police patrols issuing tickets to cars with out-of-state plates in the area of the Bible College-1 mph over the speed limit, broken taillights, failure to use a turn signal, etc. I didn't have that experience when driving up and down SH 92, but then I didn't stay at the Bible College and my car is registered in Arizona. ================================================================================== MINUTEMAN PROJECT I was on the Naco, Arizona/Mexican border 6am - 2pm daily from Sunday to Wednesday, with two other Minutewomen and two Minutemen. Below is the story a rancher's wife told me, who lives on 800 acres of land, in the family since the 1880s. Their ranch begins at the Mexican border. Her name is Robin. She and her husband, Edward, have four children. They came to our Minuteman post requesting that Minutemen be stationed on their nearby property. Robin said she hears gunshot every night on her ranch. Has no idea exactly where it is coming from. Since the Minutemen arrived, she claims the gunshots have stopped. Recently, a drunken illegal alien wandered onto their ranch at night. She was home alone with her children. The illegal alien pounded on their front door. Robin said she and her terrified children crawled on their stomachs to the back of their house to get away from him. While retelling this event, her pretty eyes were filled with both terror and humiliation. The family's ranch is stampeded by illegal crossings. Years ago, they said their ranch was peaceful and safe. That it was rare to see illegal crossers. The husband, Edward, said he was recently on his property and was astounded to count over 200 illegal crossers in a group nearby. He said he called the border patrol on his cellular phone. He was told by the woman on the phone that it was not possible to see 200 hundred crossers because they would never cross in such a large group. As he was being told this, the 200 were crossing right before his eyes! This ranching family thanked us profusely. They said if we needed anything - food, showers, rest - we were welcome at their home. The gruff rancher husband had tears in his eyes when he said goodbye, thanking us. OUR MINUTEMAN TEAM In our sector, teams of Minutemen from two to five set up on a hillside along a dirt road ten paces from the border of Mexico. I think we had a total of nine teams. Although too far to talk, you could see a Minuteman team on either side of you. We communicated with each team via walkie-talkie radios. It was very well organized. We had a MMP supervisor driving by periodically. Each team was encouraged to fly their state flag. A New York flag was flying from the team to our west and a Florida flag flying from the team to our east. Our team flew an American and a Californian flag combo. For 8 hour shifts around the clock, Minutemen - a giant neighborhood watch - were armed with binoculars, cellular phones and handheld walkie-talkie radios. We set up lawn chairs and umbrellas. Posted a sign that read, "Californians for Secure Borders." In our spare time, we threw a boomerang, flew a kite. We played CDs. In short, we were noisy and visible. Chris Simcox had said noise was a good thing at a Minuteman post to deter would-be crossers. There was a showing of border patrol helicopters, border patrol SUVs, sheriff vehicles, border patrol on scooters. In short, there was a steady stream of law enforcement on this normally deserted stretch of border land. We were told by local ranchers that they have never seen so many border patrol. That this show of force was for the MMP. THE FENCE/the trash The barbed wire border fence is a joke. It's about shoulder high. Our team's section of fence, about a two block area, had four crossing areas. The barbed wire has been stretched and cut to accommodate crossers. On the Mexican side, trails through the desert shrubs lead up to the passage holes in the barbed wire fence. Some of the holes are large enough to accommodate a pair of crossers walking hand in hand. Our area was littered with many Gatorade bottles. Many, many plastic bags. Tins of foot fungicide. Deodorant cans. There were endless numbers of cans, sweatshirts, a hair brush, razors, a cell phone, a little Spanish Bible, many backpacks, sandals, tennis shoes, blankets, a powder puff, tuna cans, Tequila bottles, beer cans, a well used address book in Spanish. We found three one dollar bills rolled up and covered in dirt. One of our Minutewomen found a black ski mask. There were many toothbrushes and tubes of toothpaste. It is heart breaking to see the beautiful desert literally covered in trash. The trash is just spread all over. If you walk a few steps there is some form of trash within view. Many, many plastic bags fly on trees and shrubs. The size of bags vary from those big, black outdoor trash bags down to the small postcard sized plastic bags. Where the hell are the environmentalists on this issue of unbelievable trash? Is there anywhere else in the United States with such out of control environmental destruction that gets so little environmental attention? It is perplexing. The Mexican side was desolate except for a train track and a highway in the distance. Desert foliage was crisscrossed with paths leading to the fence. MEXICO BEEFS UP ITS FORCE We read in local newspapers that the Mexican government had beefed up their forces where the MMP were stationed. For example, a Mexican group on Mexican soil that supposedly rescues crossers, called Grupo Beta, was stationed to encourage crossers approaching the 20 mile MMP teams to return home. We were told military were also in the area. The Grupo Beta wore bright orange shirts and drove new orange trucks. We usually had one to two trucks within our binocular vision, with several orange coats per truck. The local ranchers told us that they had never seen these "orange coats" before. It was a first for them. We watched the orange guys with our binoculars. From our lawn chairs, armed with walkie-talkie radios and bottled waters. We watched them drive around in their orange trucks. They would park under trees and eat their lunches. Get out and walk around. Go under bridges where migrants camp. We would from time to time see people who may have been migrants [translation: illegal aliens] get in the backs of their orange trucks. One time we saw a group of about 8 single file coming over the horizon. Our entire 9 team section activated. We were radioing each other. All posted with binoculars. We were a-buzz! Well, they turned out to be reporters! American reporters interviewing the Mexican national government workers. They all walked up to the fence, with the "humanitarian" workers and we talked for quite a while. The humanitarian Mexican worker spoke no English. But interpreters said they wanted to show us a baggy they handed out to crossers with snack bars and water They offered to give us food and water. Another Mexican national farmer approached us later on horseback and stated illegal crossers only want to work. Again, we had a peaceful conversation. But what we can say is that while we were posted for 24 hours at our section not one illegal crosser traversed the well-worn paths. They did not walk through the openings in the barbed wire, as they normally do. Our presence stopped illegal crossings in this area - normally commonplace. On Tuesday, we did see a young man appear among the orange guys who had a huge rifle slung over his shoulder. The Minutemen in my group knew the rifle make and said it had a scope. This guy was in his 20s, in a tee shirt, black pants and baseball cap. No uniform. Our entire line watched him through binoculars. He would zigzag around. Talk to the orange coats. Zigzag more. Our radio walkie-talkie info finally declared they thought he was police. He eventually walked out of view over a hill. When I related the event to a local rancher who stopped by to talk with us, he told me that the guy was definitely a coyote. He also said anyone out there on the Mexican side is part of the bribery and smuggling even if they are government employees. BORDER PATROL AGENTS There were border patrol supervisors who would drive around and talk to the press. They would spin a line worthy of Bush and DHS. But when there were no supervisors around, the rank and file border patrol would occasionally speak to us. It was brave of them as they wear name badges. One border patrol agent told me that the Mexican humanitarian orange coat guys routinely shake down the crossers. He laughed when I called the Mexican orange coats humanitarians. Another agent told me that the border patrol was very glad we were there. When we asked about the so called sensors Minutemen were setting off, he laughed and said the spokesmen were saying what they'd been told to say. He gave us a thumbs up when he drove off. They also communicated that the illegal crossing activity is very well orchestrated and run. RANCHERS and locals Our arrival has been controversial among the locals. I stayed at the Bible College and went to the Bible College church on Sunday. Two pastors focused their talks on their gratitude for the Minutemen. One pastor asked for Minutemen to stand. There were only about five us in attendance. The pastor then told the church people to go to us and shake our hands. But the churchgoers approached us and hugged us! Some held onto me like I was a life safer! A line formed as mothers, children, old ladies, teens embraced the Minutemen. We did have locals express discord about MMP, but they were the exception in my experience. Our night shift had said that a rancher had pulled up in his truck, emerged from the darkness, holding the hands of his two small children and thanked the Minutemen over and over. The night shift Minuteman told me that that the rancher had tears in his eyes as he thanked them. The Minuteman who listened to the rancher and told me of the experience, is a tough, muscular, no-nonsense former military guy. But when he told me this story about the rancher, he said his eyes welled up with tears too when the rancher expressed his gratitude. When a group of us were at a local cafe, a local guy came up and grilled us. Gave us his stories about his mother's property being ransacked by crossers. He then wrote down the name of a section where he asked the Minutemen to go to. I told the locals that would give me suggestions that they should contact the leadership of MMP with their referrals. I was a peon just following the orders. If you were a Minuteman, someone would inevitably request you patrol some section. It absolutely makes my blood boil to think of government letting these hard working American citizens' ranches literally be invaded! I told them all that they are heroes. Most said they will never leave their ranches! ACLU The ACLU types showed up. They wore white tee shirts with orange letters that read "Legal Observers." As we did a shift, it was always a treat to talk to anyone new. Locals. Reporters. Photographers. Minutemen wandering about. It wasn't any different when you would come upon an ACLU person. I talked to all of them I saw. We would just chitchat about whatever. Most seemed to be college aged. I told a couple I spoke to that I was glad they were there. I said they didn't want violence and neither did we. I thanked them for being there watching. After all, with them standing among us, they only made our numbers look bigger before the illegal crossers. In that regard, they made us appear larger in force. Personally, I had no problem with the ACLU at the MMP. They would just stand around quietly in their matching tee shirts. As the week wore on, I noticed the number of ACLU observers diminished significantly. It was apparent that where we stood illegal crossings stopped. The shift went by fast because there was always some rumor flying around. Like the day when the rumor went round that 12 rancher skinheads were going to attack the Bible College. There was always somebody new coming up to investigate our team. Minutemen and ranchers would drive by with all sorts of comments. Reporters from London, Mexico, all over the US were constantly wanting to talk and be led around to see various sites. And you could look through binoculars and watch the orange guys. Or birds. The media loved to film you looking through the binoculars. I would sometimes just be watching a bird or a butterfly when I was being filmed looking through my binoculars by the media. I only regret I couldn't stay for the full Minuteman Project! It was awesome. I met some great people from New Hampshire, Massachusetts, New York, Kansas, lots of Texans and Californians. Most were just run of the mill, salt of the earth typical hard working American citizens. And we had a saying, "What happens at the Bible College stays at the Bible College!" Oh, the rumors and stories we heard! |
Why? They are just trying to get the cheapest labor possible so you can enjoy cheap prices. Do you want to pay out of your ears for all your food? I do not think so. If we stopped illegal immigration our economy would go all to hell. |
You forgot to mention that, for every 1 illegal immigrant that is caught officials conservatively estimate that 4 get through. |
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Me too, I love to pay higher taxes because of illegal aliens and their families for Medical benefits, More schools, Traffic acciodents because they can drive without licenses or insurance Drugs Drug related crimes NAFTA (North American Free Trade Alliance) (DEA and Customs agents call it the "North American Free trafficking act") AND, least we forget, once they kill or kidnap someone here in America, they can just run back across the border without fear of being extradited. The list is endless of the things I like about illegal aliens. NOT ! |
I just can't see spending another 35 cents for a head of lettuce. I was trying to hire an illegal 18 y/o babe for cleaning around the house and blow jobs but my wife wouldn't go for it. 
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Illegals are actually good for the American enonomy. They release more skilled workers to do things society values more. Also they work for cheap so you can save money on your goods and services and invest that money you save back into the economy. Now where the question comes in is how much is it worth to you to see crime go down, etc. Is it worth more than what you are saving by having illegals. If it is thent it's a good thing to close the borders. |
You are aware that legal immigrants do the same thing for about the same price, yes? Lets not mention that produce in markets are running at about a 90% margin, and raised labor costs could be taken on without any raise in price. |
Yes.
No. It would merely 'readjust'. On balance, we would have a net gain as a nation. Also, without cheap labor the Ag companies would simply mechanize in order to compete with foreign companies. Illegal immigration actually impedes our progress in producing cheap food. |
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Here's my experience with illegal immigrants from mexico. I'm a FL LEO and my city has ALOT of them and we're on the other side of the country! A great deal of my arrests consist of them, and no, not for crossing the border illegaly but for other stuff like DUI, driving with no Driver's license or insurance and theft. What really pisses me of is arresting the same person several times who you know is illegal but no one has done anything because the feds won't take him from the jail to be deported unless it's a serious crime, so the jail won't take him from me if all I have on him is his illegal status. They come here and disrespect us and our laws and we allow them to do it. |
The high cost of illegal immigration on American society is NOT offset by their "productivity". Arizona and California have recently estimated the cost of illegal immigration on their state's economies and they have concluded that illegal immigration costs residents of those states FAR more than the benefit of "cheap labor". And that does not take into account the REAL cost in terms of loss of innocent lives due to so many illegal aliens who are violent criminals in our streets, businesses and homes. If the only justification for the direct damage, crime and loss of life due to so many illegal aliens is that lettuce is cheaper - then that is the most disgusting bit of rationalization I can imagine. The reason lettuce and landscaping is cheap is because it's paid for in blood by innocent victims of illegal aliens who are allowed in mixed among the "hard workers". If it costs 35cents more for lettuce or an extra 5 bucks an hour for unskilled laborers in exchange for enforcing our laws and reducing violent crime, property loss and innocent deaths due to illegal aliens - it's worth it. We can't stop them all, but we can't stop all burglars and trespassers either. Doesn't justify allowing them to roam free. |
Sorry, I found on a thread here in the ARFCOM GD. I can't seem to find that thread.
No, they can not. That is where Ranch Rescue got into trouble with the law, they detained people for the US Border Patrol. Mexico Pres. Vicente Fox is also pushing for a pourous border laws because the illegal aliens send back home billions of USA dollars. The costs of illegal immigration is causing tremendous distress in the state and county government because of the expensive medical care pushed on the govts. |
No need to get defensive. Just because we disagree doesn't mean you have to call me a 'dingleberry'. My position is that our economy benefits from illegal immigrants and we could solve all the problems you cite by legalizing them. By giving them a legal status we could deal with every single one of your problems with immigrants. If we kicked them all out our economy would tank overnight. |
I think, at this point, my ranch would become a very large rifle range at night.
SSS |
And all I asked was for you to support that absurd statement with statistics. But you were the one who started getting defensive and dodging a SIMPLE question and turning it into a veiled challenge/attack on me. |
Show me my attack? I asked you to support you statement that illegals hurt our economy. Where I grew up, Green Bay WI, a majority of the workers in the meat packing plants were illegal immigrants. If you go up into Door County, Wisconsin most of the people that pick the cherries are illegals. Most of the hard labor in this nation is done by illegals. By getting rid of illegals you get rid of a large portion of the labor pool. Without labor it is hard to conduct business. Prices would skyrocket. You would then start to complain about how much commodities cost. |
YOU posted in this thread before I did. Look back at these posts. YOU started with your unsupported claim that "A majority of illegals are just here to work" My FIRST post in this thread was asking you to support your claim. Still waiting......................... |
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Tell ya what. Would it make any difference to you if you were presented evidence showing how much economic losses and crime border states have to put up with specifically because of illegal aliens? Would it change your position if you were presented facts showing that illegals cost more than they provide? If you can finish explaining/supporting your position with evidence, then maybe we can move forward with a dialogue. But unless you're able to support your stated position with that you FIRST posted here, the only reasonable conclusion is that you just made it up or else you're mindlessly parroting a line you heard somewhere. |
| Most problems caused by illegals are caused because they are illegal. It is the same deal with the war on drugs. Drugs are a problem specifically because they are illegal. If we legalized illegals on a guest worker program, many of these problems would disapeer. |
More unsupported claims.  Why heap more unsupported crap on top of your first pile of unsupported crap? Go back to your first claim that "A majority of illegals are just here to work" or even your second one that "our economy benefits from illegal immigrants' and provide evidence and data that support it - THEN you can speak with credibility. Otherwise it all just sounds like more unsubstantiated bullshit that you're making up on the spot. |
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Folks you would rethink the "economic benefit" argument the first time your car was stolen, or your house broken into, or you had an accident with an uninsured illegal driving a stolen car. Ask someone in the border states how the hospitals are going broke caring for illegal immigrants. Or how local jobs in construction pay near minimum wage because of the influx of cheap labor. Not to mention the drugs, prostitution, or other criminal behavior. |
Now we can talk. But of course, now I have dinner waiting so, be back later. |
The Minutemen have only two responsibilities, that being observe and report. Any contact is PROHIBITED. No arrests, no contact. If a MM is found contacting suspected illegals, they will immediately be sent home. |
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Thanks. ps I never intended this to turn into a bunfight Mark |
The Value of Undocumented Workers The numbers behind the U.S. - Mexico immigration debate A study by the Pew Hispanic Center ..... Yeah....that's a believable source of pro-immigration info. 
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