Posted: 3/20/2005 8:29:58 AM EDT
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THIS IS NOT A COP BASHING THREAD!!! Ok, so I was reading the Boston Globe magazine today. There was an article about Boston PD firearms training and they said the average recruit shoots about 200 rounds in training. Can this possiblely be right? Did they leave off a zero or two? Thousands of ARFCOM members would think nothing of sending 200 rounds down range in an hour of informal shooting. Many of these people wouldnt even consider themselves "high volume" shooters. How could the police possibley expect to take someone off the street who has never touched a gun and train them in 200 rounds? This seems insane to me. Any thoughts? |
 Note to self: If compelled to engage in a shootout with police, pick Boston.ETA: I could see a number like that if the PD recruited from an area where everybody started shooting at age 8 and fired 1000 rounds a month recreationally, but I'm betting lots of cops in Boston have shot guns only in connection with their employment. |
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When I went to the academy I think we were only required to bring 500 rds of ammo for a 40 hour course. That would give you enough ammo to run through the qualification course 10 times. Remember you only have to score 70% out of a 100 to qualify. B-27 target keep your shots inside the ring counts as hits. So you only have to hit 35 out of 50 to pass. ETA: We only had 3 runs to actually qualify the rest was for playing except for one night shoot. ETAII: State only requires that a police officer qualify with his weapon onece a year. Our department double that to twice per year. I have head of some departments that require 4 times a year but they are few and far between. And yes I'm sure most of you could out shoot most of the cops I know. ETAIII:Oh and qualifying was considered training. No we did not get say 100 rds a month to play with. |
| Man, I hope it isn't true, if so they are putting both cops and innocent bystanders at risk. The scary thing is the article talks about the "improvement" in firearms training since an incident in the 80's in which one pistol armed criminal took on four cops, won, and escaped. |
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They don't need training. When the time comes, they'll know what to do. They're on a different level than us peons. Disclaimer: I have tons of respect for most police officers. I am commenting on the occasional holier-than-thou, power hungry cop we hear about a lot |
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On the other hand, I've noticed that alot of criminals are also TERRIBLE shots. It seems to me that it's the law abiding gun owners who practice, maintain their weapons, etc. That begin said I'm sure there are good shooters in both groups. I'm sure there are a few Boston cops who happen to be gun nuts, and I'm sure that there are a few criminals who shoot rather well. Being that this is Boston, and not a rural area where firearms are a larger part of the culture, I bet that the police are on par with the criminals (or somewhat better), shooting wise. It's still disturbing, because the cops need to be WAY ahead of those they may encounter. Still, their training is probably more adequate in Boston than it would be in say, rural Texas. Any LEO's care to chime in? |
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One of the local departments issues M-16's off the rack, no one really knows if they are zeroed or not, and if an officer takes one to the range to zero for himself, it's impossible to guarantee he will draw that weapon again. One of the local trainers has tried to impress upon officers that if they keep roaring up close to an incident they better stay covered because one day they are likely to encounter a rifleman that make 150 yard shots with ease. He also tries to reinforce the notion that their rifles do not shoot in a straight line like a laser, and somethimes demonstrates by setting a foam head up behind the 500 yard berm with just the most top part of the head showing, then procedes to drill it with a rifle. |
When My friends got their LE certification in Michigan, it involved shooting their CJ professors .38 wheel gun, 45-70 trap door, and thrown clays with a duck hunting shotgun. That's the kind of thing you get when you leave LE training up to community colleges and universities rather than the agency run acadamies. |
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In my agency we qualify monthly with handgun and rifle. You must fire a minimum of 432 rounds a year. You are allowed to fire a maximum of 26,280 a year. You want to shoot more than that you have to buy your own ammo. We also host a 40 hour low light course that requires 2000 rounds. I cant imagine only qualifying a couple times a year. |
Where did you go? Selma here. I do not remember how many rounds we shot but it was two weeks of range time IIRC. I felt it was sufficient I guess. Of course by that time I was a self trained Mega Force Operative anyway!  (They do call the Academy "Minimum Standards" or "Basic Police"... Too bad so many stop training when they graduate!) |
Based on what I've seen I'd say likely better than 60 - 70%... Of course I am in Alabama. Most of us had a gun at birth. |
so you could draw that much ammo? |
Monthly quals? That's good, but unusual. How many rounds is your qual course? 432 rounds/12months is 36, is it a 36 round course? 26,280 rounds per year? How can you manage that every year? |
There is a daily limit too, and you shoot it right there. |
I currently carry a Glock 19 that has about 50K rounds through it. I use a Glock 26 for CCW & a Glock 17 for HD & Plinking. I shoot more on my own time than on duty. |
Yet instead of directing your comment towards the "most" of them that you respect, you direct it About the 200 rounds for training. Either their training system and instructors are VERY efficient, or that was a typo. edited for my shitty grammar |
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IIRC, the basic firearms portion was about 1200 rounds of pistol and less than a 100 of 12 gauge expended over a 2 week period. You guys who think in terms of hundreds of rounds don't understand the process of taking a raw recruit and starting from zero with them. Theres lots of drawing, dry firing, basic weapons familiarization, etc that doesn't require that hundreds of rounds be dunped down range. You start talking thousands of rounds over a two week period and you are talking about diminishing returns after a while. I have seen threads here where some of you talk about dumping a 1000 rounds in a day, and I have to wonder just how much legitimate practice/ training versus "lets burn up the ammo" is going on in thsoe situations. The 200 rounds you mention sounds like a routine weapons qual. *post contains personal opinion only* |
I took a 40 hour class at gunsite and fired 1200 rounds. The class was of a sort suitable for someone who had never fired a weapon, but everyone there had extensive time behind a gun--and a few had experience in front of one-- and we moved very quickly. |
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When working on accuracy; stance, grip, sight picture, sight alignment, trigger control, follow through, trigger reset. 50-rounds is about my limit befire my concentration starts to suffer and I start having more called flyers. When working on speed; Follow through, trigger reset, double taps, multiple target drills then you can shoot many more rounds. Hundreds even. A person would have to have outstanding mental concentration to fire hundreds of perfectly aimed shots in a single training session. |
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200 per day (pistol) sounds about right. Keep in mind there is classroom/live fire scenario training needed too. It's not all just punching paper. No way is the TOTAL 200 rounds. I'm scheduled for my shotgun refresher next month. 250 rounds of 12 gauge in one day.  I can shoot all the ammo I want in my assigned duty weapon calibers whenever cadets are not on the range. Can't take it home though. 
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Your point? The police basic school assumes the recruit has NO knowledge with any firearms, let alone the agencies duty weapon(s). They have to start at the ground floor and work their way up to a specified level of proficiency within a relatively short time. Your class at Gunsite had students that were already somewhat proficient in firearms, as are the students at the gun courses I have taken. Its two entirely different things. |
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There are many administraters that think like our own darm441 in that the odds are that a LEO will go his/her entire carrier without having to fire his/her weapon so why spend all that money for something that ain't never gonna happen no ways. This same mindset runs even worse to the civilian populace. Look at the incredibley lame CCW and firearms trainning courses offered to most of the populace, it ain't really gonna happen so why be prepared? It's all about the $$$$$$ [shrug]  click here------------>  
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We followed the syllabus designed for new shooters. Most people were relearning all of their weapons manipulation. The only difference is, we fired more rounds--a class of noobs would have spent a little more time dry firing. |