[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Christian Soliders (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/2/2005 10:01:07 PM EDT
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This issue has been on my mind for a solid 2 years and after exhausting all other areas of advice(ive asked everybody i know TWICE!!!) i thought i might as well try the ar15. please bear with me. i know there are alot of Christians here like myself. Alot of people whos main concern is serving the Lord also who have been in the military and to them this question is mostly addressed. To cut to the chase Ive been thinking of joining the military but theres still a naging feeling in my heart. weve all seen the results of military action in iraq and afghan. and i dont think anyone can deny it was worth it. however my main concern is your job in the military is to take a gun and go kill people and i guess im just scared that when i die and get to go talk to God ill find out id rather have liked to have chosen another profession(one without killing) like being a missionary or a crpentar or whatever i have spoken to many many people about this and theyve all said pretty much the same thing that yes war is biblically allowed and that in war killing is ok because theyre trying to kill you. im just looking for answers. ive been trying to think what Jesus would say if he were here (Live by the sword die by the sword and My kingdom is not of this world if it were my followers would fight for me) but then theres also Romans which talks about God using governments to punish the wicked and burdens being shared by all. im 19 btw im very torn so any nuggets of wisdom would be appeciated |
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Think about it this way, if you hesitate pulling the trigger on some enemy soldier and that hesitation gets fellow soldiers killed, would those fellow soldiers want you fighting next to them? ETA: If you can't kill, don't join up. You will be a detriment, not an asset. I know I wouldn't want you next to me. I'm sorry. ETA2: If you can find righteousness in what you may do in combat, you theoretically should not have a problem. For example, our military in Iraq. Saddam's regime is over, and millions of people no longer live in fear of death by their own government. That to me is a righteous act. Germany invading Europe was not a righteous act, but the US and its allies fighting the Germans was. |
Just look to your history my son, Christians have been Killing , force converting 'infidels' and the like for 1700 years!! Jesus AKBAR!! We must sacrafice our enemies the way Abraham offered his son. There is only one God and Jesus is his son! To kill the followers of Satan (non-christians) is a holy , sacred duty. Just look to the teachings of the first Christian Emperor Constantine and the popes. For example "turn the other cheek" just applies to other brother christians, not infidels. You know how many German pagan kings were granted victory in battle by the God of jesus? All of them! at which point they converted and forced their whole tribe to convert as well. How do you think most of Europe became christian?? Truly this was the work of the prince of peace and not Satan! AMEN! Oh and BTW, God told me to skin you alive............... Well, Anyhew I hope the pep talk has cleared up any questions your young mind might have about the growth and role of christanity in Europe and the rest of the world. |
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Let me put it this way... I wrestled with joining up for several years, and my many friends who are current and former service have told me that is exactly why I should not join (barring some WW2 style need for troops). It sounds like you probably shouldn't join. That does not mean you are a bad person. EDIT: And ignore t-stox. He's a 
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I am not a military man but I am a Christian and have been known to defend my beliefs with passion and sometimes action. There is this prayer that goes like this: God, I give you all of me, the good and the bad, to do with me and build with me as THOU will. Relieve me from the bondage of self so I may better serve those of Thy love, Thy power, and Thy way of Life. I say this every morning, notice the highlite in red. It is my understanding that God uses my good and bad points as He see fit for His over all plan when I say this prayer, which is daily. So if I am doing His work that is all that matters regardless of what that work may be. SGatr15 |
That's a great rationalization. If you're a good boy, God is happy. If you fuck up, it was God's design....so no big deal. So, then, taken to its logical conclusion, that I don't believe a bit of Christian doctrine is also God's plan, and he wants me to live as I do, right? Cool, I like this new way of looking at things. You ain't half bad Sarge. Just when I start feeling like maybe I'm missing out on God and Jesus, you let me off the hook. I'm going to go rape some teenage hottie, and maybe rob a liquor store. God's plan and all that stuff. |
Listen to sgtar15, if its right its right but you already know to pray for guidence. I grew up in my teen years with Ronald Reagan and was and still am anti communist, and was willing to serve volunteer style to stop it. The Soviet Union was the evil empire. I had a great time for two years and twenty years later still talk to accouple guys form my old unit. In my older age I think of Gods judgement much more often and base my desisions on what I think God would aprove of. Knowbody knows what God thinks, if you think it's the right decision then join up and pray what sgtar15 prays in the morning. I may start praying that myself.  swingset=nonsighted moron |
 No, swingset - the point is that if you are earnestly following God's will, you will know what is right and will strive to do it. You will do the very best with what you have. You will think of others and lessen your selfishness. You will strive to be more Christ-like. |
| It's "Thou shalt not murder", not "Thou shalt not kill". If you want to join the military and you feel it's where you're supposed to go in life, do it. I think if God can bless a man to the point that he can kill entire armies using the jawbone from a donkey, he can bless you enough to join the military and hurl tiny chunks of lead at his enemies. |
Actually it IS "thou shalt not kill". But it means thou shalt not murder. You have to take into consideration all the times God actually literally commands the Israelites to kill the philistines, midianites, moabites, etc etc. Including their women, children, and farm animals. Also the Bible says "There is a time to kill." You can be a christian and a soldier. Just make sure its what God wants you to do. |
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Jesus himself hung out with soldiers, construction workers, fisherman and prostitutes. They only time soldiers are directly adressed, they are told to be happy with their wages. He told His followers to sell their cloaks and buy a sword because "the days were evil". This was for self defence (killing if necessary). He personally DROVE (beat up) the thieves in the temple... Here is your problem: Liberal thought has infiltrated the Church. Our soldiers are not given the personal respect they used to... The bottom line here is that we would all be forced to worship Allah (or whomever) if we did not back our freedom up with "the sword". Go fight for good. When you die, you'll have no problems with God. Quit looking for approval/blessing from the sheep at your church. Look at this site. Gabe Suarez talks a lot about this (he is a Christian who has killed in the line of duty...): www.warriortalk.com/forumdisplay.php?s=163fc78ff032caa53662e3bca2c99173&f=24 |
I'm not even religious, and I can tell you missed the point. Anyway. To the original poster, if you don't believe that killing another human being is moral in any circumstance, that is why they created the Conscientious Objector. Nothing wrong with it, by the way, but it's up to you to decide. Here's a few questions that might help for you to think about: - Do you think that killing another human being in self defense can be morally justified? - Do you think that killing to defend others is justified? - Do you have faith in the government to use the military to defend your country and family? - Do you believe that war, outside of a strictly defensive war, can bring upon positive changes and help do God's work in the world? The fact of the matter is, once you sign in, you are duty bound, both by law and honor to see it through. You don't get to pick and choose if you agree with the battles you may be put into or the causes behind them. In many ways you're taking a leap of faith in the government to control what it is that you do with part of your life. Remember, you will be doing the government's work, you have to trust that that work is consistent with God's work. I'm not trying to scare you off, but if you don't feel right about it in the end, I'd suggest that you don't put yourself in that situation. However, if you want my take - There are a lot of wicked, evil people in this world, some of whom have created ideologies based on hatred, oppression, and religious fanaticism which does not tolerate dissent or freedom of thought. Unfortunately, the footsoldiers of the enemy are little more than indoctrinated fools that picked the wrong side of the line to be on, and therefore, in a theater of war, must be killed and defeated in order to defeat the ideology and prevent its evil from spreading. A human life is lost, but not by your rifle, but rather by the people that coerced and brainwashed the enemy into becoming little more than a dangerous zealot. It's kind of like putting down a rabid animal - it's not the animal's fault it is what it is really, but you can't let it hurt you. Likewise, the terrorists and other baddies we face in the GWOT must be stopped, before they hurt others. I'm getting dramatic, it happens when I'm sleepy I guess. |
Yeah, no duh. I'm ridiculing the idea that we have even an inkling of God's will or would know that doing wrong, in his name, is allowable so long as he ordains the act. It's history's most convenient loophole for wrong doing, and it's a coward's excuse. There have been billions of men, serving their lord, who committed some pretty questionable acts over the course of human history. I'd question anyone, ever, that pretended to act with violence on his behalf or according to his direction. I don't believe in a god that works that way, sue me. |
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Romans 13:3-4 "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil." |
McKenzie if you do sign up, I wish you well. hard decission. on another note, this thread is quite educational. seems the ROP and the Christians are not really all that far apart in their beliefs.  Chris |
excuse me?  Christianity doesn't advocate killing non christians. And I can't think of any denomination which does. The RoP has quite a large following of people who think killing christians and Jews is a one way ticket to Allah. Not all of them, to be sure. But ALOT of them feel that way. And most of the rest don't appear to be too terribly overwrought about those that do. |
That must be a redneck execution. Huntin from the back of the truck... sheeeeit. |
Where the heck did this come from?
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I think what Swindle1984 is saying is that "Thou shalt not murder," is a better translation from the ancient texts. "Thou shalt not kill," is overly broad. |
right there in red. seems both sides are willing to kill anyone who doesn't believe, just to be "the one religion".yeah, the christians aren't doing it right this second, but sounds as if they'd just as soon kill all the infidels as the terrorists would.  By Gods or allahs will,they're interchangible depending on the time in history IMHO.Chris |
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You might want to read about other Christians thoughts on their experiences in the Iraq war. www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0849918235/103-0705623-5015857 My mother read this book and has gone on and on about it. I intend to read it when I get some time. A comment posted at Amazon.com: "LT. Carey H Cash is a Chaplain serving with the U S Marines, "A Table in the Presence" is his story of Iraqi Freedom as he saw it, heard it, and lived it. If you are in a quandary over the rightness of this war, reading this true narrative will give you unexpected insight into the experiences of our fighting men. Wounded men marveled that they were alive, and thanked God. One soldier after another tells their story of Miracles that they saw and experienced. You will share in the joy of the troops as they watch parents being united with their children ages 5 to 15 as they free them from the prison where they were held. Children, pale and emancipated, left the prison at the age of 16 when they were conscripted into Saddam's army. As hundreds of them fled the jail, they hugged the soldiers. Page after page, LT. Cash draws word pictures that give you a new perspective on war. War is not the place most people will think to look for GOD, but after reading this true tale you will know different." |
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Here's my take on it. When some soldiers came to John the Baptist for advice: Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?” He replied, “Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely–be content with your pay.” (Luke 3:14) Essentially he told them to act honorably and don't complain about what you volunteered for. As for killing, I haven't waded through the previous posts, but odds are one of our resident scholars probably pointed out that the word translated "kill" in the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" means to murder, to shed innocent blood. Look through the OT. Frankly, it is a pretty bloody book. There was a lot of righteous killing going on. Using these references, I had no crisis of conscience in my military service. |
| As someone has already pointed out, the Bible is replete with instances of God directly ordering the Israelites to kill their enemies---including women and children, for that matter---so no Christian who actually believes his Bible should have any problem killing in war as a soldier. |
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Christ commanded us to go into the world and preach the gospel, not kill people. It has never been, nor will it ever be, proper for "christians" to run around and kill non Christians. What did Christ say? Love your enemies and pray for those that despitefully use you. NEVER did Christ or the Apostles say "kill the infidel." That being said: There is such a thing as a just war. There is such a thing as fighting for a cause that is just, and fighting justly for that cause. As Christians, we are entitled to defend our lives, families, friends, and freedoms from violent attack. We are allowed to use deadly force. For an example of proper and improper killing, look at the life of David. David was a warrior from a very young age who killed many men with a sword as well as by ordering the armies of Israel into battle. God gave him victory over Goliath, and every single subsequent enemy he faced. But God didn't just kill all David's enemies for him. David still had to pick up a sword and fight. David killed many men, yet God said that David was a man after His own heart, who would execute all His will. God had a very close relationship with David....Until he comitted adultery and had Uriah the Hittite killed to cover it all up. That sin disqualified David from being the one who would build the temple. After that, God called David a bloody man. God forgave him and restored him, but David had taken innocent blood. There is a lesson here: There are conditions when it is just to take a human life in defense of self, family, friends, or country. When confronting violent men who are armed and engaged in the buisness of trying to harm you, your family, your nation, or other innocents, it is morally just to take their lives to stop their evil. But God also "hates the hands that shed innocent blood." If you, deliberately or negligently, kill an innocent person, that is where you have crossed the line from justified force into murder. If a person is not a threat and you deliberately or negligently kill them, then you are committing murder, regardless of their race, religion, or creed. God has never gotten glory in the death of men: ""As I live,' says the Lord GOD, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die?" Ezekiel 33:11 "12"What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish." Matthew 18 God is not a fool, however, and realizes that some men in this world will never cease to be evil, and will never cease to be a threat. This is why Jesus' own disciples were armed even while He was on this earth with them. He commanded them: "35And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. " Luke 22 Christ would not have commanded us to take a sword if He had no intention of us using it for defense. We are allowed to use violence JUSTLY, to defend ourselves, our families, our nations, and other innocent lives. Think of the GI's who fought to stop Hitler and his madness, or the Japanese and their pillaging of the entire continent of Asia. They stopped men like Hitler from taking over the whole world and extinguishing the entire Jewish population of the planet. Those men who fought did so in a just cause of defending their freedom, and stopping the world from being taken over by madmen. When our military fights for the same principles, then they are engaged in a righteous cause and if they conduct themselves with honor on the battlefield, (meaning no killing for fun, no killing innocents through deliberate or negligent actions, etc...) then there is no sin in what they do. |
Moses was a killer. He made the cut. Eddie |
How many times must I say this? IF a person completely violates the life, example, and teachings of Christ, THEN THEY ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN, NO MATTER WHAT THEY CLAIM!! A murdering "christian" makes about as much sense as describing a kosher hog. It just isn't correct. |
Bottom line is to pray about it, and, see what god tells you about it. You might look to the story of Alvin York, who was kind of in your shoes. Do a search for SGT York, and, I'm sure it will come up. You may consider joining as a 91B (Medical Specialist), otherwise known as a Combat Medic. You may well be assigned to a combat arms unit, as I was, so you still get boots on the ground, but, your primary job is treatment of wounded. I knew a few medics who would not carry weapons due to CO status. Life wasn't easy for them, but, they stuck to thier principals, and, were some of the best medics I knew. Realize, that this is coming from a former Christian, but, I still know the party line  Also, seek counsel from your minister. |
| Also, if you want to talk to me about being a medic, IM me, or e-mail me [email protected]. |
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I wonder if those of you who get off on attacking Christians have the balls to admit you are bigots. I'm talking in real life, not here on the good ole anonymous internet. Do you admit it to the people you encounter thru the day or do you click your tongue and shake your head and mumble "those assholes, I can't believe people act like that" whenever you hear somone denouncing a bigot. |
MacKenzie - listen to John_Wayne. He probably explained this as best as anyone could. The story of Saul, Jonathan, David, and Solomon is probably the best example that I can think of right now. It is chronicled mostly through 1 and 2 Samuel. 2Sa 22:1 When the LORD saved David from Saul and his other enemies, David sang this song to the LORD: 2Sa 22:2 The LORD is my protector; he is my strong fortress. 2Sa 22:3 My God is my protection, and with him I am safe. He protects me like a shield; he defends me and keeps me safe. He is my savior; he protects me and saves me from violence. 2Sa 22:4 I call to the LORD, and he saves me from my enemies. Praise the LORD! 2Sa 22:5 The waves of death were all around me; the waves of destruction rolled over me. 2Sa 22:6 The danger of death was around me, and the grave set its trap for me. 2Sa 22:7 In my trouble I called to the LORD; I called to my God for help. In his temple he heard my voice; he listened to my cry for help. 2Sa 22:8 Then the earth trembled and shook; the foundations of the sky rocked and quivered because God was angry! 2Sa 22:9 Smoke poured out of his nostrils, a consuming flame and burning coals from his mouth. 2Sa 22:10 He tore the sky open and came down, with a dark cloud under his feet. 2Sa 22:11 He flew swiftly on his winged creature; he traveled on the wings of the wind. 2Sa 22:12 He covered himself with darkness; thick clouds, full of water, surrounded him; 2Sa 22:13 burning coals flamed up from the lightning before him. 2Sa 22:14 Then the LORD thundered from the sky, and the voice of Almighty God was heard. 2Sa 22:15 He shot his arrows and scattered his enemies; with flashes of lightning he sent them running. 2Sa 22:16 The floor of the ocean was laid bare, and the foundations of the earth were uncovered when the LORD rebuked his enemies and roared at them in anger. 2Sa 22:17 The LORD reached down from above and took hold of me; he pulled me out of the deep waters. 2Sa 22:18 He rescued me from my powerful enemies and from all those who hate me--- they were too strong for me. 2Sa 22:19 When I was in trouble, they attacked me, but the LORD protected me. 2Sa 22:20 He helped me out of danger; he saved me because he was pleased with me. 2Sa 22:21 The LORD rewards me because I do what is right; he blesses me because I am innocent. 2Sa 22:22 I have obeyed the law of the LORD; I have not turned away from my God. 2Sa 22:23 I have observed all his laws; I have not disobeyed his commands. 2Sa 22:24 He knows that I am faultless, that I have kept myself from doing wrong. 2Sa 22:25 And so he rewards me because I do what is right, because he knows that I am innocent. 2Sa 22:26 O LORD, you are faithful to those who are faithful to you, and completely good to those who are perfect. 2Sa 22:27 You are pure to those who are pure, but hostile to those who are wicked. 2Sa 22:28 You save those who are humble, but you humble those who are proud. 2Sa 22:29 You, LORD, are my light; you dispel my darkness. 2Sa 22:30 You give me strength to attack my enemies and power to overcome their defenses. 2Sa 22:31 This God---how perfect are his deeds, how dependable his words! He is like a shield for all who seek his protection. 2Sa 22:32 The LORD alone is God; God alone is our defense. 2Sa 22:33 This God is my strong refuge; he makes my pathway safe. 2Sa 22:34 He makes me sure-footed as a deer; he keeps me safe on the mountains. 2Sa 22:35 He trains me for battle, so that I can use the strongest bow. 2Sa 22:36 O LORD, you protect me and save me; your help has made me great. 2Sa 22:37 You have kept me from being captured, and I have never fallen. 2Sa 22:38 I pursue my enemies and defeat them; I do not stop until I destroy them. 2Sa 22:39 I strike them down, and they cannot rise; they lie defeated before me. 2Sa 22:40 You give me strength for the battle and victory over my enemies. 2Sa 22:41 You make my enemies run from me; I destroy those who hate me. 2Sa 22:42 They look for help, but no one saves them; they call to the LORD, but he does not answer. 2Sa 22:43 I crush them, and they become like dust; I trample on them like mud in the streets. 2Sa 22:44 You saved me from my rebellious people and maintained my rule over the nations; people I did not know have now become my subjects. 2Sa 22:45 Foreigners bow before me; when they hear me, they obey. 2Sa 22:46 They lose their courage and come trembling from their fortresses. 2Sa 22:47 The LORD lives! Praise my defender! Proclaim the greatness of the strong God who saves me! 2Sa 22:48 He gives me victory over my enemies; he subdues the nations under me 2Sa 22:49 and saves me from my foes. O LORD, you give me victory over my enemies and protect me from violent men. 2Sa 22:50 And so I praise you among the nations; I sing praises to you. 2Sa 22:51 God gives great victories to his king; he shows constant love to the one he has chosen, to David and his descendants forever. 2Sa 23:1 David son of Jesse was the man whom God made great, whom the God of Jacob chose to be king, and who was the composer of beautiful songs for Israel. These are David's last words: 2Sa 23:2 The spirit of the LORD speaks through me; his message is on my lips. 2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel has spoken; the protector of Israel said to me: "The king who rules with justice, who rules in obedience to God, 2Sa 23:4 is like the sun shining on a cloudless dawn, the sun that makes the grass sparkle after rain." 2Sa 23:5 And that is how God will bless my descendants, because he has made an eternal covenant with me, an agreement that will not be broken, a promise that will not be changed. That is all I desire; that will be my victory, and God will surely bring it about. 2Sa 23:6 But godless people are like thorns that are thrown away; no one can touch them barehanded. 2Sa 23:7 You must use an iron tool or a spear; they will be burned completely. Also, it sounds as if you are only looking at the worst possible side of the military; war. There is so much more to the military. Even in war, you have the ability to positively affect others. Ironically, it is often under the worst of conditions that you see the finest examples of God working in us. |
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thou shal not kill it does not keep you from joining the nilitary and doing what a soldier is needed to do do some study, the old testament was written in hebrew, get a concordance, see which word the "kill" was translated from, you will see that it was taken from a word which means murder, or to kill with no good cause, but as the bible says there is a time for killing pray, seek God, let him lead you and direct your steps.... |
| you should probably seek the council of your pastor.... instead of the "expert opinions" expressed here.... good luck and I hope you make the right decision.... I am a Christian, although I do not attend church... personaly I would have no problem with "engaging the enemy"... |
Some of the "expert" opinions in this thread are put forth by people who have actually been comissioned by a church to do ministry... That being said, I do agree that the original poster should speak with his local pastor and consult the governance of his denomination. All denominations of consequence have a stand on this issue spelled out either in their articles of faith or in the minutes of their governance. The local pastor should know these things, or at least where to go to find them out. |
You just can't help yourself can you.
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| You may kill, so many others may live ... and may live in freedom, not just the Iraqi poeple, but your family here at home and many, many other families as well ... you are fighting to protect the freedom God arranged for us in the first place. If someone makes a threat that they will come to my house and kill my family, I am justified in using lethal force to prevent that threat from being carried out. What you are doing is no different. You may find that you have a special place in heaven, as a great protector of God's gifts ..... |