[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why Dont People Just Get A Class III (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/13/2004 7:45:30 PM EDT
I have to admit I know next to nothing about this topic so please be nice to me. But why dont people fork out the cash for a Class III liscense instead of paying huge amounts for transferable rifles? Also a few other questions if you qualified for a type 1 or 2 ffl couldnt you just pay the yearly tax? What is the cost Ive heard anywhere from $100-$500 a year? If you qualified and bought a semi-auto rifle and converted it to select fire would you have to go from a class 3 dealer to a class 2 manufacturer? And would it pretty much give you the freedom to do what ever else you want to a firearm such as SBR or suppressors without any other taxes or waiting periods. And last if you lived in Kansas which does not allow full/select fire firearms would it be possible to qualify for a Class 3 and if so could you possibly open a range that would allow rentals. Also I understand that this is not a one time tax and the firearms would either have to be legally transfered or destroyed if one decided that a Class 3 were not for them.
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| First Im not really interested in it at this moment being a student but I could be in the near future. Also I wouldnt be looking into it just to buy a few cans and a couple SBR. In Kansas correct me if Im wrong John Doe just cant go out and purchase a transferable machine gun. You might say move but there are several family buisnesses here that I have to much pride in to let close down just so I can move. Also I will probably never get a class 3 liscense just really interested. |
I have a cousin and uncle who are in town with me I would trust them both with my life both being very religious and loyal people. My uncle inhereted the family moving buisness which is being ran out of buisness by large corporations. They just recently auctioned off all there large equipment (trucks, fork lifts, Etc.) and have decided just two have it a small two man moving team, Uhauls, and longterm storage. My cousin and I are both gun collectors and shooters and within the next few years his father is planning on retiring and he will receive the buisness with two large warehouses and and land in and out side the city limits I also have access to about a 1000 acres of land outside the city limits of course. Would we be dreaming if me and my cousin formed a corp opened a shop in the old moving and storage office and built a range outside the city limits or possibly in one ofthe warehouses. Also both warehouse are very secure and if I remember correctly there are two walk in safes for proper storage. |
What if I had post dealer samples for sale would I be required to actually sell one? I have seen all sorts of items for sale such as select fire ak's but cant really see a police agency purchasing one of these. If not for police and not transferable to a class 3 without a LEO then who are these marketed to?
What if I purchased a semi auto and did the convesion inshop? There is a local range here that has a class 3 they dont sell of transfer stuff for people, they just rent dealer sample guns This is what Im interested in. I cant think of a single range in Kansas like that. I live in a town that is at least 20% military and college there is a market for for something like that. |
I doubt that this is at all true, because it would be VERY illegal. But they probably only handle LEO orders/transfers, and not the general public. -Troy |
Sorry should have worder better. They dont do Class 3 transfers, have asked, and asked others, they dont do them for people. They will do normal transfers It says you cant use to increase collection. So cant you sell a few guns at cost or close to it just to sell them? Your selling guns with your FFL, your just also getting stuff for yourself. |
Because a Class III license only allows you to deal in MGs. If I want a MP5 it will still cost $14,000 just like it does you. Also most people CAN'T become a Class III, or more correctly a SOT, because they aren't an FFL. And you can't get an FFL for "personal use." |
You are missing all kinds of stuff. First NO SOT actually owns dealer samples (post86) they rent them. Just because you bought and paid for that Post 86 MP5 the minute you don't renew your SOT you have to get rid of it. You CANNOT keep it. Also you need a Demo Request Letter for EACH Dealer Sample weapon you want. And you can only have ONE of each type. If you want a MP5 you can keep after you close your SOT you need to buy a pre86 transferrable like everyone else. You can buy a pre86 dealer sample and keep that but you can never sell it to anyone else but another SOT. Post86 Dealer samples you absolutely cannot keep. |
I posted this topic to help me and others interested in this info sort everything out. Even though its probably not for everyone including me Im sure its always been in the back of peoples minds. |
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| Hey SteyrAUG I understand that I wouldnt be able to keep the firearms as long as I want as I originally posted "Also I understand that this is not a one time tax and the firearms would either have to be legally transfered or destroyed if one decided that a Class 3 were not for them" I probably didnt word that exactly right but is that kinda the general idea. Also dont ge me wrong Im not trying to say I told you so I do appreciate any info you can add. |
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Corrections. You are missing all kinds of stuff. First NO SOT actually owns dealer samples (post86) they rent them. They are inventory that is owned by the SOT. When one gives up thier SOT then they are no longer able to own them, but thier assest are still thiers do sell or destroy as they see fit. Just because you bought and paid for that Post 86 MP5 the minute you don't renew your SOT you have to get rid of it. You CANNOT keep it. Also you need a Demo Request Letter for EACH Dealer Sample weapon you want. And you can only have ONE of each type. Actually you can have as many of the same weapon as you can justify, or as you have responsible persons listed on your license. So if you can document to the ATF that the dept. demo you are doing is large enough that it can not practically be done with one MP5 then they will approve multiples. However many responsible persons you have listed on your license, then you can get 1 sample for each responsible person, since each may have to demo the same type gun at different locations at the same time. If you want a MP5 you can keep after you close your SOT you need to buy a pre86 transferrable like everyone else. You can buy a pre86 dealer sample and keep that but you can never sell it to anyone else but another SOT. Of course one can always sell any NFA to police depts. and government agencies also can be sold to foreign embassys. Post86 Dealer samples you absolutely cannot keep. |
LOL. WHich basically means you RENT THEM for as long as you have the SOT.  Did you ACTUALLY THINK I was seriously saying you rent them? What the hell did you think this referred to? Just because you bought and paid
Last I heard it was one per SOT.
Holy Crap. You ACTUALLY CORRECTED ME ON SOMETHING. Yes I forgot PDs, and government agencies, etc. Course they are so easy to sell used 86 post samples to.  Thanks Dave, I was actually kind of run down tonight. Now I'm in a great mood. 
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One of each model per specific letterhead request. I know a few SOTs who demo'd the HK UMP to a local PD and HK would only send them one. Was a real PITA to have 12 SWAT guys wait their turn. |
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I have had the class 3 SOT status on and off for the last 20 years. If I was a class 3 dealer again I think the best way to do the DEALER SAMPLE guns would be stuff like regestered (dealer sample) H&K sears so they can be removed and destroyed if you give up the class 3 status. I think you could do the same with a regestered (dealer sample) DIAS for AR type guns, .223 , 9mm, 7.63x39. Other guns like stens should be cheep enough for a dealer sample it will not hurt to bad to turn it in. A dealer sample FAL should not cost to much, use a cheep receiver and strip off the parts when you are done with it. You should be able to do a SAR 1 to a dealer sample AK-47 for not to much. Maybe a dealer sample 10/22 also. And all the suppressors and SBR and SBS you can afford. Back when I was Class3 I had lots of friends who where also class3, we would trade and sell guns and suppressors amongst ourselves so it would appear that we had a active bussiness. And sooner or later you will do a transfer to an individual on a form 4. Going Class 3 is just filling out a form and sending in a check once you have the FFL. Sometimes getting the 01 FFL can be a hard nut to crack. Good Luck, Court .223 |
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I never tried to get a letter for a Dealer Sample, I always thought if they will not sign a form 4 what are the chances they would give me a letter asking for a demonstration. Anyways ,I found this on the ATF site. Court .223 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27 CFR 179.105: TRANSFER AND POSSESSION OF MACHINEGUNS Applications to transfer two (2) machineguns of a particular model to a Federal firearms licensee as sales samples will be approved if documentation shows necessity for demonstration to government agencies. ATF Rul. 2002-5 The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) has received inquiries from dealers in machineguns concerning the justification necessary to obtain more than one machinegun of a particular model as dealer sales samples. Specifically, the inquiries are from machinegun dealers who demonstrate machineguns to large police departments and Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) teams, which requires the firing of thousands of rounds of ammunition during a single demonstration. Section 922(o) of Title 18, United States Code, makes it unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun, except a transfer to or by or under the authority of the United States or any department or agency thereof or a State or a department, agency, or political subdivision of; or any lawful transfer or lawful possession of a machinegun lawfully possessed before May 19, 1986. The regulations in 27 CFR 179.105(d) provide that applications to register and transfer a machinegun manufactured or imported on or after May 19, 1986, to dealers registered under the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, will be approved if three conditions are met. The conditions required to be established include (1) a showing of the expected government customers who would require a demonstration of the weapon; (2) information as to the availability of the machinegun to fill subsequent orders; and (3) letters from government entities expressing a need for a particular model or interest in seeing a demonstration of a particular weapon. The regulation further provides that applications to transfer more than one machinegun of a particular model must also establish the dealer's need for the quantity of samples sought to be transferred. The dealer sales sample regulation in section 179.105(d) is a narrow exception to the general prohibition on possession of post-1986 machineguns imposed by section 922(o). It requires that dealers submit letters of interest from law enforcement agencies to ensure that dealers possess post-1986 machineguns only for the purposes permitted by law, i.e., for sale or potential sale to government agencies. Qualified dealers in machineguns often demonstrate weapons to all officers of the department, requiring the machinegun to fire thousands of rounds of ammunition during a single demonstration. In the case of new model machineguns, a department may wish to have thousands of rounds fired from the weapon before they are fully satisfied of its reliability. ATF is aware that after firing hundreds of rounds a machinegun often gets too hot to safely handle, resulting in the dealer's inability to demonstrate the weapon until it cools. In addition, it is not uncommon for machineguns to jam or misfeed ammunition after a large quantity of ammunition has been fired. Accordingly, dealers who demonstrate machineguns to departments with a large number of officers have asked that ATF approve the transfer of two (2) machineguns of each model as dealer sales samples. The purpose of the dealer sales sample provision is to permit properly qualified dealers to demonstrate and sell machineguns to law enforcement agencies. Neither the law nor the implementing regulations were intended to impose unnecessary obstacles to police departments and other law enforcement agencies in obtaining the weapons they need to carry out their duties. Accordingly, if a dealer can provide documentation that the dealer needs to demonstrate a particular model of machinegun to an entire police department or SWAT team, ATF will approve the transfer of two (2) machineguns of that model to the dealer as sales samples. This ruling should not be interpreted to imply that under no circumstances may a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) receive more than two (2) machineguns as sales samples. Consistent with past practice, an FFL who can show a bona fide reason as to why they need more than two (2) machineguns, may be able to receive more than two (2) if the request is accompanied by specific documentation. Held, applications to transfer two (2) machineguns of a particular model to a Federal firearms licensee as sales samples will be approved if the dealer provides documentation that the dealer needs to demonstrate the machinegun to all the officers of a police department or the department's SWAT team or special operations team. An FFL who offers other bona fide reasons for their need for two (2) or more machineguns may get more than two (2) with specific documentation. Date signed: September 6, 2002 |
Probably should of worded that differently. If you were a class 3 couldnt you do that? As court223 said that way you could keep the Hk's if you dropped your status and just transfer or destroy the sear. |
No a SOT could NOT do that. Sears made after 86 are simply "parts" with no special status. If a SOT put a sear made after 86 in a HK rifle it is just an unregistered machine gun, he cannot register it. The manufacture of Title II (registered sear and registered receiver conversions) ended in 1986. As for keeping HKs by destroying the sear, it won't work. HK declared the receiver to be the machine gun on post 86 HK rifles and SMGs. The ONLY thing you can do, besides sell it, is destroy it per ATF regs which will leave you with the same kind of parts kits you can already buy without a SOT. |
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If you have an 07 FFL with an SOT then you can make / manufacture the NFA firearms you would like. You DO NOT need ANY type of LEO letter if you are an 07/SOT to make a machine gun. Simply...go to the shop....drill the required hole..do a little milling...and file your Form 2 with the ATF. Of course...like mentioned...this is now a post dealer sample machine gun and if you don't keep paying your yearly SOT (on top of maintaining your FFL) then you have to dispose of the machine gun. |
Yes..an 07/SOT can make and register (Post Sample) an auto sear for the various firearms around. However, if installing the sear requires you to do a modification to the host firearm that the ATF would consider to be a machine gun in and of itself without the sear then you have two machine guns. It is not always the case with HK rifles and SMG's as you can do a sear conversion without the host HK firearm being considered a machine gun. I am of course talking about taking a semi auto HK and converting it to full auto using a registered sear. Also an 07/SOT can make a lighting link or drop in auto sear for the AR15...register the link or sear...and move it around to various hosts all he/she wants. |
(semi-off topic analogy) The IRS has been scrutinizing people's home businesses from time to time. It's fine if you have a business and just aren't any good at making money, but if the IRS decides you're faking it, they'll declare your business a hobby and there go your tax breaks. (back on topic) I'm not sure if the ATF goes to the same lengths to scrutinize whether a person is is business or just doing it as a hobby. An aquaintence does Class II fun and he said the ATF came by once for an interview, he's still not exactly sure why. A friend used to have a home-based FFL, and was able to keep it going for a bit...but gave it up not too long ago. (hijack topic) Didn't the wacky-9th Circuit Court include in a recent ruling that a person could make their own machine gun that wasn't for interstate commerce? It's only for the 9th Circuit area (Western states), but I don't know anybody even close to brave enough to try and test it out on those grounds. Personally, I'm saving for something transferrable...but it may be awhile..which by then, they'll cost more! 
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There is so much misinformation flying around in here it's not even funny. no shit! jeezus! the guys that don't know need to clam up rather than lead folks astray. Because a Class III license only allows you to deal in MGs. If I want a MP5 it will still cost $14,000 just like it does you. not really. a form 04 mp5 may cost $14k. a post or pre does not. Also most people CAN'T become a Class III, or more correctly a SOT, because they aren't an FFL. you do NOT need to be any kind of ffl to file for a C2, C3 or C7 ffl and an SOT. anyone can do it and as a business, local law enforcement cannot interfere in interstate commerce. they have no say so in the application process. Also you need a Demo Request Letter for EACH Dealer Sample weapon you want. And you can only have ONE of each type. this is simply wrong. i can own 25 maxims if i so desire and can justify and i need NO letter to construct/procure them. many military and police units want MULTIPLES of each platform onsite for the demo. Last I heard it was one per SOT. you 'heard' wrong. i have multiples of the same types. One of each model per specific letterhead request. wrong. i have a letter from a major in the u.s. army, sf oda group, requesting the demonstration of two of the new fn mk 46 mod 0 version of the 249. in addition to the three weapons, 30k rounds are to be provided, as well as support equipment (cleaning/spares). I know a few SOTs who demo'd the HK UMP to a local PD and HK would only send them one. Was a real PITA to have 12 SWAT guys wait their turn. they sent them one due to financial concerns, not legal ones. do you think i can afford to buy the u.s. army TWO m249/mk 46 mod 0's??? hell no! in my proposal, i stated that i would provide ONE gun and that uncle sam would have to supply the ammunition. |
And I specifically addressed both kinds of DS. Why did you ignore those answers?
You said EXACTLY what I said. You NEED to be a ffl to have a SOT. You don't need to be a FFL to apply for a FFL and NOBODY said anything like that. Now you can apply for a variety of FFLs to add a SOT to.
LIke I said.... Last I heard it was one per SOT. Glad that changed.
No it was due to a specific legal concern. This one was also addressed by Dan Shea in the 4th Edition of the Machine Gun Dealers Bible. Are you saying Dan Shea is wrong? |
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And I specifically addressed both kinds of DS. Why did you ignore those answers? you said you had to pay the same $14k as everyone else. may i re-quote you? Because a Class III license only allows you to deal in MGs. If I want a MP5 it will still cost $14,000 just like it does you. now, no c3 in his right mind is going to fork over $14k for an mp5...unless it is gold plated. i saw nothing in that reply that discussed the pricing of post or pre samples and i still see no explanation as to why a c3 would pay $14k for something he can get at half price or much less than half price. You said EXACTLY what I said. You NEED to be a ffl to have a SOT. You don't need to be a FFL to apply for a FFL and NOBODY said anything like that. Now you can apply for a variety of FFLs to add a SOT to. here is your sentence, once again.... Also most people CAN'T become a Class III, or more correctly a SOT, because they aren't an FFL simply stated, you can hold a c3 ffl in and of itself. no sot required. additionally, there is no prior need for holding an ffl to apply for the sot. i'm looking at my copy of my sot right now. there is no reference to my ffl anywhere on it. what does yours say? please re-read your sentence. LIke I said.... Last I heard it was one per SOT. Glad that changed. me too! No it was due to a specific legal concern. This one was also addressed by Dan Shea in the 4th Edition of the Machine Gun Dealers Bible. Are you saying Dan Shea is wrong? yes, as evidenced by the batfe sourced information posted above. it is quite permissible to receive letters for multiple example demos. it is also just as permissible to give them. do you really think 40 soldiers from an oda line up to watch one weapon get wrung out? the demo with only one 249 mk46 mod 0 will keep too many soldiers waiting too long for an effective evaluation of the system and will undoubtedly cause logistical problems onsite whe stopages, breakage or overheating occur. i can swing a gun, a couple extra pipes and spares, but two is out of the question financially for me...NOT legally. my counter-proposal will probably cost me the demo...not due to legal concerns...just what i can afford to do. wanna help a poor boy out and fund a second 249 for me? btw, jeff cooper and col. hackworth have been wrong, too. me too, but not on this matter. |