[ARCHIVED THREAD] - How To Become A FFL... (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/7/2004 11:37:24 PM EDT
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Edit: Hi folks. I had originally came here with a comprehensive post on how to successfully obtain a FFL. I covered everything from roadblocks in the application process to how to set it up in the most cost effective way. I concentrated specifically on areas where ATF will lok to deny a person a FFL. And I noted areas where I have seen people lose their FFL. Then David came along to argue some points. They were fairly ridiculous and I addressed them. An example is a home based FFL. Now being in a rural area like Nebraska there are still places in the sticks where there is no regulation and I noted that in my original post but that wasn't good enough for David and he felt compelled to call me on it and some other minor nitpick issues that anyone with a brain could figure out. And as a Texas dealer pointed out many of Davids "facts" are not in order. Then CAMPYBOB came along to refute my claims that a person could not be a hobby dealer for "fun money and guns at cost" with a declaration of BULLSHIT. Well by all means when you guys fill out that application please indicate per CAMPYBOB that this will be a recreational FFL for beer money and to acquire guns for your personal collection. Just tell them CAMPYBOB sent you and your application is sure to go through. Then NAM showed up to help. He is keeping score and is the official cheerleader for the other two. Since these 3 are here my services are no longer necessary. I have helped a few ar15.com members become a FFL but that is NOTHING compared to their contribution of arguing and declaring bullshit. So please see David Hineline, CAMPYBOB and NAM for all your FFL needs. They are here to help and they know everything. |
Clarification: Arrests, or Convictions. MAJOR differences there, just wanting to make sure everyone understands the requirements. You can be wrongly arrested for many reasons, even though you did nothing wrong, such as being in the wrong place and looking like the wrong person. Or driving a white van while the cops should be looking for a blue car, etc. |
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Well you have put a lot of opinion here , not all based on facts. Your primary source of income can be any damn job you want. As long as you try to make a profit then you are in business, if your license is from a commercial location you can loose money for ever, you must try to make a profit but many businesses loose money for ever. You can also. Do the businss from your home and then you need to show a profit 3 yrs out of five, IRS rules not ATF. Many Many places alllow home based businesses, check with your local zoning, ATF will verify. As for hours of operation, you can list your hours as 1:00AM to 2:00 AM on Sundays only. ATF does not get to set your shop hours, also ATF can only do routine inspections durring your shop hours or by an appointment they make with you. As for no criminal record, Yankton SD just got a new FFL/SOT dealer in machineguns, a convicted felon who has his conviction pardoned by Governer Janklow, the now convicted felon himself, no problem getting the license. I pay my sales tax yearly not quarterly because I do not do enough volume to justify quarterly payments. Your state may vary. I order direct from Bushmaster, Rock River Arms, Springfield Armory, Armalite, DPMS, DSArms, Robinson Armament, Gemtech, AAC, I order from wholesalers like guns Unlimited, JerrySports, Davidsons, RSR, SOG, CDNN, FAC of Minnesota, Dennys Guns I have dealer accounts with Cabellas, and many many more I can not pull off the top of my head. After 5 yrs of doing this only one distributor Ellot Brothers cared if I had a store front. As any home based business it is really a good deal tax wise for the first two years. As for costs, The FFL 01 is $200/3yrs then $90/3yr renewal, FFL 07 manuf. is $150/3yrs same for renewal. Adding $500/yr SOT steps it up to NFA weapons. $1000 is you do a high gross volume. More licenses available on top of those for more money. costs are listed on the form 7 FFL application. |
My ATF compliance inspector (in Houston) told me that at a minimum the hours had to match when they worked...i.e. sometime during the weekdays between 9am and 5pm. 1-5pm on Friday would be fine. Sunday hours would not. Your milage may vary. |
I guess if you loose money for ever it really does stay Loost! |
Lots of requirements for EPA type stuff. Like "how do you plan to dispose of hazerdous waste?" Also, I believe there is a rather expensive State Dept. license involved. |
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A dealer here in Huntington Beach CA seems to operate out of his home but I know he has a shop elsewhere in town where he works on firearms and manufactures parts. Hard to say whether his actual place of business is his home or the shop. My wife had a home based business so she could buy craft supplies and flowers wholesale. It was a hassle to fudge up some information for the IRS and then pay the Accountant to file the forms. |
FFL or just anything? I can answer the non-FFL business side of this. Back in 2003, right before OIF, I happened on to some "peace" pins and had an order filled out for 300 "Peace Through Superior Firepower" pins. I put them up on ARFCOM and surprisngly sold them all in 12 hours. So I figured there was a market there. So I came up with a name for my new mail-order business (Life, Liberty, Etc.) and started looking into carrying t-shirts and other items. We've been doing this about a year and a half and it's very successful. Yes, you can run this from your home. If you have any specific questions, let me know, but I will try and cover the basics for my web-based mail-order business. 1) You MUST have the ability to accept credit cards. Verisign has a program call PayFlow where their site does all the credit card processing. Once an order is authorized, you can go back and capture the money from the customer's account when you ship the order. IIRC, it costs $200 to start their service and $20/mo in recurring costs. 2) Your SHOULD offer other forms of payment. We accept PayPal, checks and money orders. Put PayPal's policies aside and make it flexible for the customer. 3) Expect to invest some of your own money to buy some inventory to start out with. I think I put about $10k into t-shirts and stickers and such to get going. 4) Unless you can find someone to drop-ship, expect to spend a good deal of time packing orders and shipping them. On average, it takes us about one hour to pack twenty orders. We also have to buy shipping supplies (boxes, tape, labels, peanuts & padding, etc). Uline is a great source for all sorts of shipping supplies. 5) If you're running it out of your house, make sure you have enough room for your inventory. We have boxes all over the place: t-shirts, coffee mugs, mailing supplies. Make sure your wife can put up with it.  Luckily, mine can and she also helps me run the business. 6) Since you have no physical presence for people to see, there are two ways to get customers: word of mouth and advertising. Word of mouth works pretty well for me as I'm in a niche market and most of my stuff is unique. You can't go to some other site and buy a Molon Labe shirt for example because we're the only one that sells them. So people will see someone wearing our shirt, say "Hey, that's cool, where can I get one?" and eventually end up at our web site. Advertising. It usually costs money to get a new customer. The main advertising we do right now is through blogs, specifially conservative web logs. Check out Blogads. We get an AWESOME return for our advertising dollars with many blogs. We also advertise in some print publications (Small Arms Review). Someone told me that it takes a few months of advertising in print to see a good return. I thought they were nuts, but sure enough, we've been in there a few months and are finally seeing a decent number of sales from the ad. Here's our print ad. We also advertise on Ann Coulter's web site. It's expensive but has been totally worth it. 7) Repeat business. You'll never see the company grow if you don't offer new products and keep your customers informed. We try to add a new product at least once a month. We have free content (The Range Bag) that gives customers something to come back and see. We also have a mailing list that we use to notify customer about new products and content. 8) Customer service, customer service, customer service. IMHO, this is key. You can sell good products at decent prices all day, but it'll never work if you don't have good service to go along with that. Occasionally, we screw up. We'll ship the wrong shirt, forget something in an order or have something backordered way longer than expected. In those instances, we'll eat the cost for fixing the problem to make the customer happy. You might lose a profit on that one order, but when a customer sees that you're going above and beyond to make things right, they'll almost always return and will also let their friends know. Personally, Ammoman and CRKT have gone above and beyond for me and I have given them more business because of it. 9) It's still work. Don't think running your own business will make you rich overnight. I still work a day job and do the mail order stuff on the side. I still have to make sure orders are shipped promptly, customers needs are addressed quickly, advertising is purchased and monitored, inventory is managed, mailing supplies are in-stock, fresh content is added to the web site, new products are designed, etc. I always say, "If running your own business was easy, everybody would be doing it". However, I really enjoy the business, especially being able to get out and meet my customers at shooting events and gun shows. Plus, it's helping to promote RKBA. |
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As far as the "arrests" thing goes. I'm 27. When I was 18, I got a speeding ticket, and failed to show up to court or pay the ticket. The judge issued a bench warrant for "Contempt of Court: Failure to Appear/Failure to Pay Fines". A warrant was issued for my arrest. About 6 months later (still 18), I called the police to a break-in to my apartment. My information was ran, I was arrested, taken to jail, fingerprinted, cited, released with a new court date. Went to court, plead guilty, paid my fines. I have a non-violent misdemeanor on my record for this. This prevented me from getting my CHL until I was 22 (Oregon law apparently says no CHL within 4 years of any misdemeanor). I have my CHL now, so no issues there. Does this count towards the whole "NO FFL FOR YOU!" bit? |
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Yeah, I think some clarification is needed on arrests and convictions. I had a similar incident as kythri, but when I found about it (after it went warrant) I went down to take care of it and subsequently arrested. I was never convicted of anything. Does this disqualify me? I also have my CHL. |
www.lifelibertyetc.com/ You run that business?....cool. Please expect an order from me in the near future. |
DVDTracker THANKS ALOT! Thats some great info for me. Ive been selling stuff on gunbroker for a couple years now to help fund college. Infact I think I might have even sold you a AMD parts kit if my memory is correct. You are right inventory and shipping are some major factors. Being in small cramped apartment with picky roomates doesnt allow me to have a large stock pile of items in my living room so I pretty much have to try to keep it somewhat organized in my bedroom. I am not yet married but have a girlfriend of 2 years that has been very helpful with shipping and could see how it would be very difficult to get by with out a wives approval and assistance. I sell anywhere from 5-10 items a week which works fine since I have limited inventory but have only one more year of college left and have some big plans for expanding. Also ebay pollicies put a huge dent in my sales since they banned any "assault rifle" related items.
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It's arbitrary, like most things and enforcement depends upon the disposition of your local ATF office. The license ONLY is $200 for the first 3 years. |
Doesn't matter how you intend to market the guns, the home would still be the licensed facility. ANd if your locals say you can't run a gunshop out of your house then that is the end of it. There is no such thing as a gunshow or internet license. The address on the FFL is the licensed premise. |
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Now if you own a hardware store and plan to add a gun counter then you will be ok. But if you are a law clerk who works 40+ hours downtown and are thinking you can run a part time FFL for fun money and guns at cost, think again. ATF will not approve you. bullshit. |
Mods: 2 SteyrAUG: 0 |
Sorry no. I have watched ATF close out a few local FFLs because they were deemed "hobby dealers." Again it will depend upon how aggressive your local ATF branch is.
Again, not opinion. I noted that unicorparated and rural areas may still allow home based FFLs but this is not the norm unless you live in the sticks for the most part.
Pardoned. What I was pointing out is that just because you have bought guns with a conviction in the past does NOT mean you will get a FFL.
My state offers no exceptions.
Meanwhile Benelli, Kimber and H&K are much different. Now I know you are just an argumentative person with a poor disposition but I am actually trying to help people. Your ridiculous nitpicking is frankly a PITA. Everything I said was true based upon experience and you know it. I cite specific examples to further elaborate but rather than understand what I'm telling people you tell me about Cabellas. If you want to help please start your own damn topic and don't troll this one. You are not helping. I've helped a few ar15.com members get their FFL. Have you helped any? Or are you just here to try and argue? |
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Also remember the ATF views Gunsmiths and Dealers diffrently. I move at most 5 a year. All my income comes from repair/refinishing, custom jobs and parts. In the 13 years that I have been a smith I have been visited twice. My hrs are 3pm to 7pm M-F. I do transfers. $25 per visit. IF you can pull a FFL.. Give it a try if they say no. Well what is your loss. Remember... HE WHO DARES WINS! |
Not possible. David is always right. As they do things in Nebraska is how it is all over the world. 
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Save your bullshit. Seen enough FFLs denied. Fun money and hobby FFLs are specifically denied. Ask ATF. It's even an application question. |
And both wrong. You are helping how? Are you an FFL? |
You are misrepresenting your opinion and your experiences as fact. |
Sorry, like the other two I have corrected you are wrong as well. I addressed them and corrected all of their opinions. |
Good thread Steyr- thanks You know be all live in barely contained envy of you. Me thinks that the disconnect expressed on a few of the details is simply a difference of how the local BATF runs things. I encounter nonsense like that all the time with the FAA (same executive branch  ) The locar czars are allowed to run their own little fifedoms pretty much as they please. |
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as david hineline pointed out, you are posting opinion as fact. i work 50+ hours/week at my day job, and no where on the app. does it state anything about fun money, sad money, mad money or monopoly money. in fact, there is no requirement to show a profit or any specification about 'how much money' has to be made annually. you can lose your ass and still be an ffl. hell, you can BE an ass, and still be an ffl...i know plenty that are. there is no requirement about the hours your store, shop or manufacturing facility need be open. none. zero. nada. zippo. |
Much as I love ya Steyr, he's absolutely right. The ATF has no idea, nor do they care how much money you make. You can also avoid having posted hours of operation buy not having a call in number for background checks. If you're not running background checks on your FFL you don't have to post hours of operation. |
INCORRECT. It is even a question on the application. And if you ANSWER that do NOT intend to have a FFL as a real business you will be denied. What I sad specifically was THIS. law clerk who works 40+ hours downtown and are thinking you can run a part time FFL for fun money and guns at cost, think again. ATF will not approve you. MEANING if it is a "hobby FFL" you WILL NOT get it. Now if you work a full time job AND run the FFL as a full time serious business you will probably be ok. But that won't apply to 99% of the people here. And you are further INCORRECT about showing profts. One of the specific requirements is to "be engaged in business for profit." That is verbatim. Don't take my word for it, contact ATF. And finally, like I told David, just because your local ATF branch is lax doesn't mean everyones ATF branch is commanded by Andy Griffith. Anyone living in any kind of populated area is going to run into exactly what I described. As my post was directed to the ar15.com community at large I addressed ALL areas from rural unicorporated areas where I specifically noted a home FFL may still be possible to the more urban areas where you may not even get a FFL approved for the business district. You coming here and decreeing I am simply offering opinion is ridiculous.It is fact based upon experience. But again DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT. CALL ATF. Ask about a Hobby Home Based FFL for fun money. |
Again I was addressing the "application process" where there is a specific question about intent to be engaged in business for profit. If you answer "No" then No FFL. And you very much do have to list hours of operation. And how in the hell are you gonna have a FFL without doing background checks? I don't think it is possible. Again your FFL is not allowed for personal use only. And on your first ATF inspection when they go through you books if they see you are only getting guns for yourself do you think you are going to keep your FFL? If you transfered 2 guns ALL YEAR do you think they may have grounds to declare you are not engaged in a business for profit? That key phrase is one of those arbitrary tools at the discretion of ATF to revoke your license. |
Nice job guys. Some of us here actually wanted this information. I had already looked into a FFL and found that I couldn't run one from my home just like he said. I saw this post this morning and it had a lot of good alternative ideas as well as guidance on how to fill out the application so it won't be rejected. I get off work and it is gone because your efforts. And from a mod no less. Bravo. |
There was no misrepresentation. Please see my answers to the other posters. Point out the part you don't understand and I will explain it again. |
After reading all of this thread & others by Steyer, there is no doubt that he is an authority & has few peers. Keep up the good work Steyer!!
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I don't claim to be an authority but I do have experience here. And my experience is not limited only to my personal situation as I have helped a few ar15.com members from all over the country get an FFL. The dispute here comes down to perception and in one case simply a poor disposition and a need to argue. A perfect example is the notion of a home FFL. As I stated in my original post it is "possible" but not in 99% of the cases. But if you live in a rural, unicorprated area with no restrictiosn then you can absolutely do it. This is what guys like David and to a lesser extent Campy failed to appreciate. Not all of us live in the sticks and a guy trying to pull a FFL in say Houston (despite being in a gun friendly state) is gonna run into code and zone roadblocks to a home FFL. Furthermore I don't know where Campy got the notion that a recreational FFL is gonna fly. It is absolutely not allowed and any indication on the application that you intend to run anything other than a serious firearms business will get your application denied. Perhaps he simply didn't take the time to read and comprehend what I wrote and went off with a knee jerk response and that is rather common on this forum unfortunately. David is just David and his reply doesn't surprise me at all. I have no idea what NAM was attempting to accomplish and I have no idea what he thinks he knows about applying for a FFL. But long story short I tried to help the general forum with information on how to SUCCESSFULLY obtain a FFL and it is far from my opinion on how to do it, it is how I've seen it done based upon those who I've seen fail and those who I've seen succeed. This included me, my application was processed without incident. |
| SteyrAUG, put your original post back up. It had a lot of useful/practical info in it. It was clear to me that it wouldn't necessarily reflect the exact experience someone in a different geographical area might experience with their local ATF office. You stated that several times. People can evaluate for themselves the various comments that were made by others who expressed differing opinions. |
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Believe what you want. Your facts are skewed, Who are you going to believe. Home base FFL dealers active on this board, like myself, and Circuits. Or a shop based FFL who has shown his past comtempt for home based FFLs who undercut him on transfer costs. The Army of One trying to convince others that they can not possibly get thier own FFL and cut him out of the loop. |
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Steyr, I only deal with home-based FFL dealers (great way to get dealer price without markup... call me cheap, I don't care)... do you mean to tell me that I haven't and their existence is imaginary? Well, shit, who have I been having do the transfers for me all this time?
I think Steyr would prefer it if we believed "normal peons" like ourselves couldn't possess FFLs... Many shops and dealers would probably like this. |