[ARCHIVED THREAD] - American RPG (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 11/24/2004 4:05:31 AM EDT
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I was wondering why the US does not produce and use a Rocket Propelled Grenade launcher. The enemy seems to love theirs. I know we have one shot disposable rockets and larger guided rockets. Would it make more sense to dedicate a man to use an RPG (he'd have an M4 also) than to have several men carry bulky disposable rockets? I would think you would have a more consistent supply of rockets this way. Here's my idea 1. The US-RPG would be able to use RPG ammo. 2. The US-RPG ammo would not function in an RPG. 3. One kind of ammo would have a warhead much larger than an RPG 4. One kind of ammo would be very similar to the standard RPG ammo Comments on my idea 1. In practice you would not want to use the possibly defective or booby trapped RPG ammo. But if we give them to our allies in Iraq or Afghanistan they would want to be able to use this cheap and available ammo. 2. This should be done in a way that cannot be easy overcome. Maybe a small computer chip in the round. 3. This would be the same warhead as the one shot disposable rocket or the larger guided rocket or something in between. 4. This is just lighter and easier to carry than the heavy round. I could be convinced to drop this one in favor of just the heavy ammo. Sorry is this has been brought up before but I cannot search the general forum. |
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I fully agree. Well thought out. I have always said that the RPG was a superior weapon and wondered why we do not have something like it. I do not think we even use LAWs Rockets anymore and if I am not mistaken it was the smalles weapon of the typ we ever fielded... |
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The Marines have the SMAW, which is RPGish. Uses disposable rockets, and to boot has a 9mm (not Luger) spotting rifle ballistically matched to the round, so the point of impact can be determined before launching. The SMAW was developed by the Israeli's. Semper Fi |
RPG is not our style of warfare, Just think of how many poor "innocent civilians" would be killed by "evil" US forces "marauding" around by RPGs. |
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Not invented here syndrome. The advantage of the RPG is that the warheads size is not limited to the size of the launch tube like a LAW or AT-4. HEAT warheads, there is a direct correlation between penetration and warhead diameter. Also RPG warheads come in a wide variety of types like FAE, HE, HE-FRAG, etc. |
| We have the M203 and it works rather well. Not teh same as an RPG, but its effective. The LAW (not LAWS) is still used sometimes. The AT4 is great but pretty damn big for a throw away. The SMAW is the best bet for RPG likeness. But unlike the enemy. We actually know how to aim our weapons and unlike their AK's our weapoins are accurate. We dont need to fight like them. |
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The RPG is basically a streamlined Panzerfaust. What advantage does that weapon have over a M203 on an M4? The RPG takes a rifleman out of the squad. Our way doesn't. When you need to destroy a tank or bunker, bring up the AT-4 or call in air support. It's effective like most Soviet weapons though: simple, cheap and easy to produce. I would think a bag of rockets on a guy's back makes him a target. G23c |
YEP!.........I concur!! |
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I always thought an American RPG would be a good thing also, but I have learned a few things that I did not know about the RPG. I guess it is not very accurate, and has a high failure rate. With the exposed warheads and the tube on the back, if those get damaged then you are screwed. |
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This guy is a good read. His politics are another story, but he's a good writer when it comes to military gear. Most Valuble Weapon: The RPG And 23 RPG's to destroy an M1? I'm sure if you hit it frontally, you could ding an M1 all day, but M1's have been disabled by RPGs pretty frequently including wounding the crew inside. The article below is of no relation to this, just cites the probs with taking an M1 into the MOUT environment. RPG vs. M1 |
I love "INSTRUCTIONS: Fire Like This" on the side. Man..if I pick up something like that, I want a bit more instructions myself. |
You work for the DOD or the Pentagon? |
No just smart enough to know the difference between reality and crap. The RPG was designed to be used by poorly trained troops and IS AT BEST MARGINALLY EFFECTIVE, there are effective and cheap countermeasures that can be used on vehicles the can easily defeat it. The RPG is getting far, far more “insurgents” killed in Iraq that US soldiers the vast majority of US casualties are coming from IDEs not RPGs. The “insurgent” that exposes himself long enough to make a semi-accurate shot with a RPG in Iraq ain’t going to walk away from it. It is weapon designed for Russian monkey conscripts not professional soliders. |
Well, if we made it, I am pretty sure the ammo would be more reliable and safer. I am willing to bet alot of the duds are from the Hadji't total lack of proper storage of the warheads, who knows how old the warheads are, and lack of quality control in manafacture if produced in the Middle East. Accuracy would be enhanced with proper training, even the best weapon is a hunk of junk if the operater doesn't have a clue. I am willing to bet a bunch of Rangers could wreak havoc with RPG's. 
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A rag-tag bunch of militia did a pretty effective job of knocking out 2 Blackhawks choppers, the basis for the book/movie Blackhawk Down. The many USA soldiers & trucks have been hurt by RPGs. |
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the RPG is past its prime. its still effective like the AK but there is better. the AT-4 out classes it and if you want to look at armor performance the javelin embarrasses it. if the 203 or the .50 wont will it an AT-4 will. no room for an RPG in our arsenal. have you handled one? i have. its a piece of shit!!!! |
It's a genius weapon designed for everyday schmo use. When properly employed it's a devastaing weapon and that's been proven time and time again. Research or casualties in Iraq, many are from RPGs. Just like any piece of gear in the US arsenal, if properly employed it'll work. Otherwise if you elect to try and RPG a US column by situating yourself in the middle of the street away from any semblance of cover, take the time to carefully aim, give a few "ALLHU AKBHARs!!" before lighting off your RPG, you may end up on the internet as the Darwin Insurent Nominee. I could tell you that had that guy stepped out from behind a wall, after two RPK gunners had provided suppresive fire, you'd be seeing a different conclusion to that video. Easily defeated? Last I checked it's pretty hard to wrap a rifle comapny in chain link fence or clad them in personal reactive armor. Look at the cost to kill ratio of these things. They'd make a Pentagon watchdog group do back flips. Tiered level repair? Sending it out? What? Just fix it at the combatant level. What's so much better? An over engineered American, high maintenence, years from design to production built by low bid contractor piece of gear? This is M-16 vs AK-47 all over again. |
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The RPG forced us to build the M1 and Bradley. The weapon has caused American forces nothing but trouble since it was introduced. Lots of helicopters were lost in Vietnam to RPGs in Hot Landing Zones. The Israelis captured lots of them in 1967 and 1973 and issued them to their own troops. The SMAW is an evolution of the RPG, a cheap, crude weapon that has paid for itself thousands of times over. |
It seems to me, the RPG is more of a defensive weapon, rather than an offensive weapon. We are usually on the quick offensive, little use for an RPG style weapon when we do have things such as M203's, Armor, and close air support backing us up. |
I think alot of it also had to do with pure manpower on the Russia side, how many did they lose at Stalingrad (sp?). Also add in the long Russia winter and the hugh German supply chain. |
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In the after action reports from OIF many Marines stated they RPG was the most effective weapon deployed against them, and stated they desired something simular in their arsenal. Personally, I'm partial to the TOW2, IME the LAW, AT4, and Dragon all suck ass. The Javelin is after my time. Most disposable system are too bulky. The SMAW is loud. SMAW gunners suffer more hearing loss than any other Marine MOS. |
The Russian losses where truly horrendous. I was just making a point, Hitler thought he would easily defeat them, he was very wrong. I saw a program on Stalingrad not long ago about Russians who hunt for the dead and make money selling the "dogtags" and other info back to Germany so the lost war dead can be accounted for. They showed this huge field in the Steppe and you can still make out some of the battle lines. They then said when the battle was over some 200,000 dead bodies littered that field. 
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I would disagree, the rpg is a classic low cost infantry weapon that can just as easily be used in offensive as well as defensive measures. A lot of ambushes are started by either IED's or RPG volleys followed up with small arms. You start the ambush with your biggest weapons first! And hey what kind of name is PolyAk anyway? 
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Why would we want an RPG? As someone pointed out, we have the M203 grenade launcher, has about the same killing radius. True it won't penetrate armor like an RPG, but has about the same effective range (everything I have read says that the RPGs max effective range is about 300 yards, and that's pushing it) We could either have our soldiers carry a RPG with three reloads, or a M4/M203 combo and carry up to 24 grenades in his vest. Hmmmmm, guess which one I would pick. Another problem with the RPG is that it is inherently inaccurate. The fact that it pops the rounds out before the rocket takes over decreases its effectiveness. I have also heard that since it does not fire from a tube like the AT4, sometimes the rocket will fly in unexpected directions. When I was stationed in Fallujah, Iraq we were attached to the 82nd Airborne. They had a Humvee come back in after getting in a fight. An RPG had punched thru the passanger door and came to a stop in a MK19 ammo can. The rocket failed to detonate and I am sure everyone needed to change their underwear after that. I would bet money that if this was an American AT4 or even a 40mm grenade from a M203 that hit them, the story would have ended a lot differently. |
I've heard this too. That was the idea behind my point about having a really large warhead. The US-RPG would be able to punch a hole through a sandbagged bunker that a m203 could not. I got this idea watching Fallujah videos. I'm thinking about heaving a big bomb 100 yards down the street at dug in terrorists not knocking out a T-90 at 500 yards. I read a review of the RPG a while back that said that increasing the size of the warhead would make it more effective against our armor. I doubt the Iraqis can expect shipments of new weapons but I expect we will face them somewhere else in the next few years. That USMC rocket launcher looks like a good idea. The fact that it has a scope implies that it is accurate. |
You make a very good point here. The ammo for an RPG is heavier and it does not come attached to a rifle. Your point is even better when the issue is clearing a house.
All this means is that commie/arab made ammo is crap. |
I also think the fact that the warhead is exposed and the rockets are pretty fragile to begin with has something to do with this as well. I don't know if you have ever seen a RPG rocket in the real world or not, so if you have don't think I am trying to patronize you or anybody else here, but the booster charge that's on the end of the rocket is basically made of paper-mache. It doesn't take much to ruin the rocket. The LAW or the AT4 protects the rocket and is a lot more durable. FWIW, I really like the LAW concept. A durable rocket that is protected until it's fired, and small enough to carry around. But back to my original point, I would rather just carry a ton of grenades with me. |
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M203 may not have as explosive of a warhead but you can cary a hell of alot more ammo for it then the RPG. and it doesn't fire like a freaking bottle rocket 1. accurate 2. lightweight 3. already pointed at the enemy as it is attached to the rifle the soldier is carrying |
Ok, fine, you made my point. How many frickin' ambushes are we setting up? We don't set up and wait for an insurgent convoys to come around, so your logic is whacked. If we want to ambush someone, we ahve a lot bigger than a little RPG at our current disposal anyway (read my original back up weapons noted earlier). Right now, we do more house clearing kind of actions as mentioned by others. The RPG does not have a role in that scenario that an M203 hanging under an M4 rifle couldn't do waay better in, with more ammo on you as well. If we know where suspects are hiding, and the M203 can't get to them, our armor, AT4, air support, HUMVEE with TOW, etc,etc,,etc,,, you get the picture. (Just as you saw in that video I sent you yesterday )And BTW, yeah, I'd like very much to change that name 
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The Russians have developed a FAE warhead that is pretty damn big and sends Chechen Hadji's to meet Allah very effectively. I have read that it is devasting when fired into buildings and bunkers. The fact that there are a lot duds with the RPG's over there can probably be attributed to who the manafacturer was(arab countries haven't been renowned for engineering), how was this ammo stored (was it stored out in the sun), and age. A 10% dud rate is considered acceptable. Oh, I have seen plenty of AT-4 Duds, Range 26 at Yakima was full of them when I was stationed there. |
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If you wanted more 'Punch' than the M203 could give why not buy some of FN's rifle grenades? They work on every US Rifle, and with the bullet trap all you need to lauch the grendade is a round of ammo (no blanks, no special grenade rounds, just standard ball ammo). EVERY soldier could carry a couple. I'm sure a sight that attaches to the M1913 rails is availalbe (or could be fairly quickly). Yes the rifle grenades don't have the range of the M203 or even the RPG, but they add a capability for every rifleman, and every soldier gets to keep their rifle. |
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The US Army is trying quite desperately to find the money to buy M3 Carl Gustav's for the whole army, not just the Rangers and SF who use them now. Its in the US Army AARs that are floating around. The AT-4 while used, is not well liked because it only has one kind of warhead, and it does weigh 15 pounds each. You have a choice, have each man in a squad carry just one AT-4, for a maximum of 9 shots, or have each man in a squad carry 3 Carl Gustav rounds, also 15 pounds, which would give them 27 rounds, the HEAT versions of which have not only the same performance, they are the same projectile as the AT-4 but they travel 3 times as far when fired from the CG. And Bofors now makes a Flechette round with 2700 projectiles for the CG family. In adition to the existing air bursting HE/Frag, the delay action HEDP anti-fortification round, and the WP round. The Marines are seemingly very happy with the Mk153. Because its a rocket, not a recoilless gun they have no cannister round, but on the other hand they have a thermobaric rocket for destroying houses that the CG does not have, and might not ever have, because it is a rifled recoilless gun and the Gforces involved with firing demand a thicker walled projectile. Either way the AT-4 is something of a white elephant, its big, heavy, cannot kill tanks or modern IFVs, and is short ranged. And now Rafael has come out with the Spike SR which is only 3 pounds heavier than the AT-4 yet is a full IIR GUIDED missile, with top attack capability and a 1km range, and because of its top attack and tandem warhead it CAN knock out even modern MBTs with reactive armor, and can be fired indoors with just 1m clearance behind it. There does not seem to be much future for disposable rockets. As there are now missiles that are as small and better for the AT role, and reloadable recoilless guns and rockets are better for dealing with fortifications, since they can put out more firepower. The one disposable that might make a limited comback is the old M72, still in production for Israel and Canada, the US Army's own manual on light anti-armor weapons cites it as being as good a weapon for dealing with buildings and bunkers as the AT-4 is. But it only weighs as much as a single Carl Gustav round- or one third of the weight of a AT-4, and if you don't want the weight of bringing a Carl Gustav along, but may need more reach than a hand grenade or a bigger thump than the 40mm it is a very good compromise. |
Every soldier gets to keep their rifle anyway now that we issue M4's instead of M16's.. Rifle grenades were gotten rid of because they were heinously inaccurate, the IDF was the last major army to use them, and they dumped them in the early 90's for the M203, because you could put a 40mm grenade through a window with regularity wherase the rifle grenades they had used with the Galils would be lucky to hit the wall. |
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Screw the RPG, we need the Russian RPO-A Shmel. A thermobaric rocket launcher that creates a huge expanding fireball that consumes everything in a 50m radius. If the heat and blast doesn't kill you first, the deflagration that occurs will suck the air out your lungs. Hiding under cover wont help. Along with AK and 30mm grenade launchers, this was a Russian's best friend in Chechnya. |
The USMC already HAS this with the thermobaric rockets for the Mk153... |
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