Sig Sauer is kicking A** (Page 7 of 9)
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Originally Posted By tgmr05: Another perfect example of an emotionally based response/stance. Rational people want to have the best, most accurate information to make an informed decision. Not anecdotal, but true solid 100 percent verifiable/repeatable information. If you can provide the 100 percent verifiable/repeatable specific problem showing a current unmolested p320 can fire without a trigger pull - I will support you and help spread the word. Otherwise, well, you know… Lol, rational people must not make many decisions, because almost nothing is in life is 100% verified. Rational people play the odds: X is more/less likely to happen than Y, so X is the correct decision. If someone has two ways to work and one of them more often is backed up, a rational person says "that way is usually a standstill, so I'll take this other way". They don't say "well that way is usually backed up but it's not 100% verified today, so I'll take it". Rational people say "huh, there sure are a lot of reports of 320s going off, so I'm going to buy a Glock/M&P/PDP/P-10/Echelon, or even a 365." An irrational, emotional based person would say "I think all these lawsuits, news reports, videos and chatter is bunk. I like the gun, therefore it's all engineered outrage and false." |
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Originally Posted By glklvr: Lol, rational people must not make many decisions, because almost nothing is in life is 100% verified. Rational people play the odds: X is more/less likely to happen than Y, so X is the correct decision. If someone has two ways to work and one of them more often is backed up, a rational person says "that way is usually a standstill, so I'll take this other way". They don't say "well that way is usually backed up but it's not 100% verified today, so I'll take it". Rational people say "huh, there sure are a lot of reports of 320s going off, and I'm really not happy about how SIG is handling it, so I'm going to buy a Glock/M&P/PDP/P-10/Echelon, or even a 365." An irrational, emotional based person would say "I think all these lawsuits, news reports, videos and chatter is bunk. I like the gun, therefore it's all engineered outrage and false." A rational person does not stick with an emotionally based decision/opinion after years of not being able to truly 100 percent back it up. Especially as lawsuits/videos/etc are actually revealing different outcomes and completely debunking/destroying the initial emotionally charged response. Still waiting for your 100 percent verifiable/repeatable evidence to support your years long initial emotionally based opinion that can finally be truly 100 percent verified to support that opinion. I can get behind you and support you, if you can do that. Edit for: Just to clarify so there is no confusion. Show how a current, unmolested, stock sig p320 can fire without the trigger being pulled. 100 percent Repeatable/verifiable proof. |
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Originally Posted By tgmr05: A rational person does not stick with an emotionally based decision/opinion after years of not being able to truly 100 percent back it up. Especially as lawsuits/videos/etc are actually revealing different outcomes and completely debunking/destroying the initial emotionally charged response. Still waiting for your 100 percent verifiable/repeatable evidence to support your years long initial emotionally based opinion that can finally be truly 100 percent verified to support that opinion. I can get behind you and support you, if you can do that. Edit for: Just to clarify so there is no confusion. Show how a current, unmolested, stock sig p320 can fire without the trigger being pulled. 100 percent Repeatable/verifiable proof. You assume not buying a 320 is an emotionally based decision. That is why you fail. Simple questions for you: has the SIG P320 design ever had an unintended discharge issue, and if so, what was SIG's initial response? |
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Originally Posted By glklvr: You assume not buying a 320 is an emotionally based decision. That is why you fail. Simple questions for you: has the SIG P320 design ever had an unintended discharge issue, and if so, what was SIG's initial response? This response makes no sense whatsoever. Not a very good try to spin away from the unanswered topic at hand. |
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Originally Posted By tgmr05: This response makes no sense whatsoever. Not a very good try to spin away from the unanswered topic at hand. Originally Posted By tgmr05: Originally Posted By glklvr: You assume not buying a 320 is an emotionally based decision. That is why you fail. Simple questions for you: has the SIG P320 design ever had an unintended discharge issue, and if so, what was SIG's initial response? This response makes no sense whatsoever. Not a very good try to spin away from the unanswered topic at hand. Nobody is spinning but you. |
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Originally Posted By tgmr05: A rational person does not stick with an emotionally based decision/opinion after years of not being able to truly 100 percent back it up. Especially as lawsuits/videos/etc are actually revealing different outcomes and completely debunking/destroying the initial emotionally charged response. Still waiting for your 100 percent verifiable/repeatable evidence to support your years long initial emotionally based opinion that can finally be truly 100 percent verified to support that opinion. I can get behind you and support you, if you can do that. Edit for: Just to clarify so there is no confusion. Show how a current, unmolested, stock sig p320 can fire without the trigger being pulled. 100 percent Repeatable/verifiable proof. The only thing that is irrational is that you feel that in a machine with various parts, different tolerances, conditions, that you will be able to achieve this. There are far too many variables that can be introduced to do this, in any handgun. So all a rational person can do, is look at the dozens of examples of videos, determine if they feel it is user error versus equipment failure, and make their own *rational* choice. As someone who owned half a dozen of these pistols, that's what I did....after considering the number of these that are in daily carry versus other brands, and the distinct lack of video evidence presented by other platforms....in addition to sig's own in house testing that revealed a shocking failure rate of their poorly designed striker block. You can't achieve what you are asking for, and you know it, which is why you still push this absolutely absurd argument, and call anyone that disagrees with you "emotional" or "irrational". Critical thinking. Try it for a change. What you claim is irrational and emotional is actually quite the opposite for anyone with an IQ above room temperature. |
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For the record, Glock has been sued a boatload of times over their pistols primarily because of the requirement to press the trigger to take the pistol apart. That has produced more negligent discharges than I can begin to count, and often with significant injuries. A deputy client of mine worked 4 cases of people pressing the slide into their hand to disassemble without having cleared the pistol properly first in an 18 month period. This happens a frightening amount. Requiring a trigger press to take a pistol apart will have consequences when you give the weapon to pink squishy monkey creatures who make hundreds of mistakes per day. (That would be human beings) Because it's a pistol with about a 6.5 pound trigger and no manual safety or means of blocking the firing mechanism, the next most popular way they've hurt people is discharging while reholstering. Something would get in the trigger guard as the pistol was being holstered (jackets with drawstrings are notorious for this, as are flashlight lanyards) and as someone forces the gun into the holster the trigger is pulled and BAM. I have personally met someone who had a chunk of his buttock taken by a Glock that discharged due to the snap of his department mandated holster worked into the trigger guard of his issued Glock as he tried to hurriedly reholster to assist another officer making an arrest. The next most popular vector for accidents with Glocks involves aftermarket triggers. A good many of them out there will cause serious issues when installed into a pistol or one of the "Glock builds" that is now a thing and it will result in all manner of havoc. The one negligent discharge that my late friend Todd Green had in class was due to someone with an incredibly stupid and incredibly light (read: unsafe) Glock trigger he got on the trigger too early on during the draw, shooting himself. That was not a fun day for him. These, of course, aren't on Glock. I'd say the least occurring vector is people pressing the trigger on a factory gun during the draw. This happens but tends to be relatively rare compared to other Glock accidents. Serpas or similar are often involved for obvious reasons. All of those things are real and received media coverage. What is different from the P320, however, is you do not see an accumulation of video evidence and firsthand witness testimony showing Glocks going bang without the gun being directly acted upon by human hands the way you do with the 320. I know of one documented instance of that happening and it resulted from somebody carrying a Glock too close to an MRI machine while guarding a prisoner getting scanned. Other than that, it isn't happening. Meanwhile we have video of a police officer getting out of his cruiser with both hands far away from the pistol and the gun discharging spontaneously. We have guns that were holstered in a bag discharging. We are not seeing these videos from M&Ps, Walthers, Glocks, Staccatos, you name it. The only time we see a police officer's backpack hanging on the grip of a pistol and the gun discharging happens to be with a P320. Might just be a clue. |
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Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: Cool. Now explain why Cohen is bad. Prior to Cohen Sig manufactured almost all of its parts in house and put those parts through multiple quality control checks, including the few parts they got in from external suppliers. I can tell you that after Cohen arrived one of Sig's most famous contracted federal government contracts received an entire batch of P229 pistols where the trigger would not pull. They got in new trigger bars, skipped the testing that was traditional (and mandated by the contract) and it resulted in shipping hundreds of guns that were non functional and could not be issued. This resulted in having to go on site and fix them all and have a meeting with said agency to try and calm them down by LE reps. I knew the LE rep involved. You could point to the DHS officials that made plea deals by essentially taking bribes from sig to select their weapons. You could point to Cohen's plea deal for violating German weapons export laws to send guns to Colombia. There's no shortage of things to point to if someone wanted to make the "Cohen bad" argument. It is equally true that the company has never been more profitable than with him at the helm. He was brought in precisely to make the company profitable. The shortcuts and shady deals fueled the company's growth most definitely. Whether or not that's a fair tradeoff for how the company has grown, or the risks those decisions pose for the future is an open question. Bad MIM quality control isn't just an Indian problem for sure, but subjecting contracted parts to proper quality control checks would eliminate end users being QC inspectors by surprise. But, again, that's one of the first "innovations" he brought to the company. |
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Originally Posted By John_Wayne777: Prior to Cohen Sig manufactured almost all of its parts in house and put those parts through multiple quality control checks, including the few parts they got in from external suppliers. I can tell you that after Cohen arrived one of Sig's most famous contracted federal government contracts received an entire batch of P229 pistols where the trigger would not pull. They got in new trigger bars, skipped the testing that was traditional (and mandated by the contract) and it resulted in shipping hundreds of guns that were non functional and could not be issued. This resulted in having to go on site and fix them all and have a meeting with said agency to try and calm them down by LE reps. I knew the LE rep involved. You could point to the DHS officials that made plea deals by essentially taking bribes from sig to select their weapons. You could point to Cohen's plea deal for violating German weapons export laws to send guns to Colombia. There's no shortage of things to point to if someone wanted to make the "Cohen bad" argument. It is equally true that the company has never been more profitable than with him at the helm. He was brought in precisely to make the company profitable. The shortcuts and shady deals fueled the company's growth most definitely. Whether or not that's a fair tradeoff for how the company has grown, or the risks those decisions pose for the future is an open question. Bad MIM quality control isn't just an Indian problem for sure, but subjecting contracted parts to proper quality control checks would eliminate end users being QC inspectors by surprise. But, again, that's one of the first "innovations" he brought to the company. I was in an agency with a similar experience. In 2009 we transitioned from P2340/P2022s to a combination of P229s and P239s. They all came with a plastic recoil guide rod. During our transition course (basically shooting our qual over and over and over) fully a third of the plastic guide rods on the 239s broke. SIG sent metal guide rods as replacements. |
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Originally Posted By glklvr: Simple question: has the 320 ever had an unintentional discharge problem, and if so, what was SIG's response? Still waiting for your 100 percent verifiable, repeatable proof showing a current unmolested stock p320 can fire without the trigger being pulled. The issue is this, in the simplest form. Claiming a sig p320 can fire without a trigger pull - based off testimonials and videos is what started this. The true question is do you believe it can. That is what the entire issue is based on. If you do, it is time to prove it. No one else has. Otherwise it may be time to let it go and realize/analyze what really made you feel it could. |
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Originally Posted By tgmr05: Still waiting for your 100 percent verifiable, repeatable proof showing a current unmolested stock p320 can fire without the trigger being pulled. The issue is this, in the simplest form. Claiming a sig p320 can fire without a trigger pull - based off testimonials and videos is what started this. The true question is do you believe it can. That is what the entire issue is based on. If you do, it is time to prove it. No one else has. Otherwise it may be time to let it go and realize/analyze what really made you feel it could. Originally Posted By tgmr05: Originally Posted By glklvr: Simple question: has the 320 ever had an unintentional discharge problem, and if so, what was SIG's response? Still waiting for your 100 percent verifiable, repeatable proof showing a current unmolested stock p320 can fire without the trigger being pulled. The issue is this, in the simplest form. Claiming a sig p320 can fire without a trigger pull - based off testimonials and videos is what started this. The true question is do you believe it can. That is what the entire issue is based on. If you do, it is time to prove it. No one else has. Otherwise it may be time to let it go and realize/analyze what really made you feel it could. You can't prove a thing in life. Stop trying to base a discussion on it.  Prove Jesus Existence ?? | Cliffe Knechtle Dont get tangled in the weeds that the above short is about God. Its about evidence vs 100% proof. |
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Originally Posted By tgmr05: Still waiting for your 100 percent verifiable, repeatable proof showing a current unmolested stock p320 can fire without the trigger being pulled. The issue is this, in the simplest form. Claiming a sig p320 can fire without a trigger pull - based off testimonials and videos is what started this. The true question is do you believe it can. That is what the entire issue is based on. If you do, it is time to prove it. No one else has. Otherwise it may be time to let it go and realize/analyze what really made you feel it could. Originally Posted By tgmr05: Originally Posted By glklvr: Simple question: has the 320 ever had an unintentional discharge problem, and if so, what was SIG's response? Still waiting for your 100 percent verifiable, repeatable proof showing a current unmolested stock p320 can fire without the trigger being pulled. The issue is this, in the simplest form. Claiming a sig p320 can fire without a trigger pull - based off testimonials and videos is what started this. The true question is do you believe it can. That is what the entire issue is based on. If you do, it is time to prove it. No one else has. Otherwise it may be time to let it go and realize/analyze what really made you feel it could. When I had my early P320, it could fire when dropped. No trigger pull required. |
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Originally Posted By thirsty: When I had my early P320, it could fire when dropped. No trigger pull required. But but but that's different. The trigger was still pulled by inertia. [Even though SIG still- to this day- refuses to admit there was a problem, which is why the VUP is voluntary, except neither SIG nor Grayguns will work on a non-upgraded 320] |
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Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: Cool. Now explain why Cohen is bad. I’ve argued that he saved SIG and has led the company into being the innovation leader. I also recognized that the common argument against him is that he somehow ruined Kimber, which, if true, would mean Kimber would have done a 180 and become the best firearm manufacturer ever. What’s your rebuttal? Let me guess: diamond plate P938s and shiny blue P238s. Yeah, not my thing either, but they sold. I’ve also proposed that there is no evidence that parts from Indo-MIM are inferior. Perhaps you have solid evidence to the contrary? Every time I’ve asked these questions, no one has a logical response. They default to Cohen is cheap (Jewish stereotype) and Indians are incompetent and just go around doing nothing but shitting in the streets all day. While it may be true there folks in India shitting in the streets, it’s also true in California. What’s also in California? Other than a lot of bullshit, a lot of tech. A LOT of tech. So it doesn’t mean the people shitting in the streets are the ones making parts. But let’s hear your well reasoned arguments. To be fair Cohen misled a lot of Gen 1 MPX adopters and told us we'd have 40S&W conversions. |
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Originally Posted By tgmr05: Still waiting for your 100 percent verifiable, repeatable proof showing a current unmolested stock p320 can fire without the trigger being pulled. The issue is this, in the simplest form. Claiming a sig p320 can fire without a trigger pull - based off testimonials and videos is what started this. The true question is do you believe it can. That is what the entire issue is based on. If you do, it is time to prove it. No one else has. Otherwise it may be time to let it go and realize/analyze what really made you feel it could. Plenty of them with hands clear. If it was a safariland issue, Glocks, Walthers, and HK's would be doing the same. But they aren't. |
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Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-: I’ll pass on the India made modern Sig stuff. We just need to import more people to the USA because obviously we do not have enough people here to work at sig to make parts. JK, I would never buy any of their shit. Over priced poorly engineered, poor support and on and on. And the ceo, fuck him. Yes I own lots of Sigs, German of course. |
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What is the official Sig appologists answer for this? This was the first video that I am aware of a 320 going off in a holster. It's 16 seconds long. The pistol was not being holstered or drawn, and the officers hands were no where near the pistol.  Montville police officer’s handgun went off inside the Montville Police Department |
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It is apparent some cannot see that the tide is turning, much less why. Simplest breakdown - the moment the emotionally invested folks felt like the 320 was gone and sig with it, actually eventually led to more rational folks clearly see what had happened. Bad news sells and social media allows a very vocal emotionally charged minority to influence so many people with perceptions that are unproven, yet understandably merit review. The problem became backing it up and what the perceptions lead to. What gets reported one way, turns out to be false. And worse is the impact it had on people trying to cover up what happened by blaming an unproven yet very widespread emotional narrative/perception. |
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Originally Posted By tgmr05: It is apparent some cannot see that the tide is turning, much less why. Simplest breakdown - the moment the emotionally invested folks felt like the 320 was gone and sig with it, actually eventually led to more rational folks clearly see what had happened. Bad news sells and social media allows a very vocal emotionally charged minority to influence so many people with perceptions that are unproven, yet understandably merit review. The problem became backing it up and what the perceptions lead to. What gets reported one way, turns out to be false. And worse is the impact it had on people trying to cover up what happened by blaming an unproven yet very widespread emotional narrative/perception. Yep, that explains all the videos, Sig blaming a holster maker, Sig's failed internal tests that were revealed, them making multiple changes to the manual to include "rough handling" and "loaded", oh, and them quietly introducing a subtle dingus into the 385. Yep, nothing to see here. The gun is fine. Y'all are too emotional! 
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Attached File Sig sent me a t-shirt. Two more pages and I get a set of steak knives. |
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Originally Posted By DR2341: What is the official Sig appologists answer for this? This was the first video that I am aware of a 320 going off in a holster. It's 16 seconds long. The pistol was not being holstered or drawn, and the officers hands were no where near the pistol.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSAI_HUZDI0That one’s been discussed a ton, don’t know where you’ve been. Pretty clear the pistol is jostled against the officer to his right. Pistol isn’t properly holstered and had a foreign object in the trigger guard. Until that point, it’s just resting there. Bumping the officer presents downward force, resulting in a trigger pull. When you have a foreign object interfering, a trigger pull can occur by either pulling up on the object (standing up with jacket pull strings stuck, competition kid putting hands up with shirt caught) or pushing down on the pistol (this case, and several Glock videos). |
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Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: That one’s been discussed a ton, don’t know where you’ve been. Pretty clear the pistol is jostled against the officer to his right. Pistol isn’t properly holstered and had a foreign object in the trigger guard. Until that point, it’s just resting there. Bumping the officer presents downward force, resulting in a trigger pull. When you have a foreign object interfering, a trigger pull can occur by either pulling up on the object (standing up with jacket pull strings stuck, competition kid putting hands up with shirt caught) or pushing down on the pistol (this case, and several Glock videos). Is there proof there was something in the trigger guard? Or is this hypothetical? Are you saying the trigger was pulled? Because if its jsut "jostled" well I need a pistol that can handle being "jostled" in the holster without discharge. |
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Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: That one’s been discussed a ton, don’t know where you’ve been. Pretty clear the pistol is jostled against the officer to his right. Pistol isn’t properly holstered and had a foreign object in the trigger guard. Until that point, it’s just resting there. Bumping the officer presents downward force, resulting in a trigger pull. When you have a foreign object interfering, a trigger pull can occur by either pulling up on the object (standing up with jacket pull strings stuck, competition kid putting hands up with shirt caught) or pushing down on the pistol (this case, and several Glock videos). Using tgmr05's logic, prove it. We will wait. |
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Originally Posted By Marksman14: Yep, that explains all the videos, Sig blaming a holster maker, Sig's failed internal tests that were revealed, them making multiple changes to the manual to include "rough handling" and "loaded", oh, and them quietly introducing a subtle dingus into the 385. Yep, nothing to see here. The gun is fine. Y'all are too emotional! Originally Posted By Marksman14: Originally Posted By tgmr05: It is apparent some cannot see that the tide is turning, much less why. Simplest breakdown - the moment the emotionally invested folks felt like the 320 was gone and sig with it, actually eventually led to more rational folks clearly see what had happened. Bad news sells and social media allows a very vocal emotionally charged minority to influence so many people with perceptions that are unproven, yet understandably merit review. The problem became backing it up and what the perceptions lead to. What gets reported one way, turns out to be false. And worse is the impact it had on people trying to cover up what happened by blaming an unproven yet very widespread emotional narrative/perception. Yep, that explains all the videos, Sig blaming a holster maker, Sig's failed internal tests that were revealed, them making multiple changes to the manual to include "rough handling" and "loaded", oh, and them quietly introducing a subtle dingus into the 385. Yep, nothing to see here. The gun is fine. Y'all are too emotional! Except there are videos of Glocks going off. And it’s from poor handling skills, just like the current P320. I don’t blame Glocks for these:  Drawstrings can cause guns many law enforcement agencies use to fire  Glock 43 Goes Off When Bending Over |
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Originally Posted By John_Wayne777: Prior to Cohen Sig manufactured almost all of its parts in house and put those parts through multiple quality control checks, including the few parts they got in from external suppliers. I can tell you that after Cohen arrived one of Sig's most famous contracted federal government contracts received an entire batch of P229 pistols where the trigger would not pull. They got in new trigger bars, skipped the testing that was traditional (and mandated by the contract) and it resulted in shipping hundreds of guns that were non functional and could not be issued. This resulted in having to go on site and fix them all and have a meeting with said agency to try and calm them down by LE reps. I knew the LE rep involved. You could point to the DHS officials that made plea deals by essentially taking bribes from sig to select their weapons. You could point to Cohen's plea deal for violating German weapons export laws to send guns to Colombia. There's no shortage of things to point to if someone wanted to make the "Cohen bad" argument. It is equally true that the company has never been more profitable than with him at the helm. He was brought in precisely to make the company profitable. The shortcuts and shady deals fueled the company's growth most definitely. Whether or not that's a fair tradeoff for how the company has grown, or the risks those decisions pose for the future is an open question. Bad MIM quality control isn't just an Indian problem for sure, but subjecting contracted parts to proper quality control checks would eliminate end users being QC inspectors by surprise. But, again, that's one of the first "innovations" he brought to the company. Originally Posted By John_Wayne777: Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: Cool. Now explain why Cohen is bad. Prior to Cohen Sig manufactured almost all of its parts in house and put those parts through multiple quality control checks, including the few parts they got in from external suppliers. I can tell you that after Cohen arrived one of Sig's most famous contracted federal government contracts received an entire batch of P229 pistols where the trigger would not pull. They got in new trigger bars, skipped the testing that was traditional (and mandated by the contract) and it resulted in shipping hundreds of guns that were non functional and could not be issued. This resulted in having to go on site and fix them all and have a meeting with said agency to try and calm them down by LE reps. I knew the LE rep involved. You could point to the DHS officials that made plea deals by essentially taking bribes from sig to select their weapons. You could point to Cohen's plea deal for violating German weapons export laws to send guns to Colombia. There's no shortage of things to point to if someone wanted to make the "Cohen bad" argument. It is equally true that the company has never been more profitable than with him at the helm. He was brought in precisely to make the company profitable. The shortcuts and shady deals fueled the company's growth most definitely. Whether or not that's a fair tradeoff for how the company has grown, or the risks those decisions pose for the future is an open question. Bad MIM quality control isn't just an Indian problem for sure, but subjecting contracted parts to proper quality control checks would eliminate end users being QC inspectors by surprise. But, again, that's one of the first "innovations" he brought to the company. Great! That’s the most coherent argument I’ve ever heard. But it still doesn’t show how he ruined SIG. Yes, there’s obviously people here that hate him and the company. But that’s clearly not the majority. The simple fact is SIG is the number two pistol manufacturer. That doesn’t happen when people hate your product. Cohen didn’t just cut corners to make the company profitable. He brought mass appeal. They could still be 150 employees and be profitable, being sixth or lower in market share. They’re not. They are both profitable and big. If Cohen sucked, neither would be true. The company was already on very shaky ground when he came in and if he was bad, it would’ve folded. As for plastic guide rods, Glocks been using them from the beginning. Whether SIG sourced bad ones, or the design differences don’t permit them, or what, I can’t say. So switching to a plastic guide rod in itself isn’t a worry for me. If you spec’d the change wrong or got a bad run, that’s something else. |
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Originally Posted By Marksman14: Yep, that explains all the videos, Sig blaming a holster maker, Sig's failed internal tests that were revealed, them making multiple changes to the manual to include "rough handling" and "loaded", oh, and them quietly introducing a subtle dingus into the 385. Yep, nothing to see here. The gun is fine. Y'all are too emotional! I haven't looked deeply into any of the events. A while back when I had read about a few it was mentioned that after testing they weren't able to duplicate the accident. Have any of the incidents been replicated in testing? I've mentioned before that watching the bullshit go down with the Remington 700 including the lawsuits make my default skepticism. Once the idea exists and spreads like wildfire true or not everyone jumps on board because of the nature of the world and how possible liability is handled. The Air Force 320 situation was a good example and I'm glad it got cleared up but lots of time it doesn't. |
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People who don't like motorcycles are just... weird.
| I am a Sig owner and fan of the 365. I am not a fan of how they handle the 320 debacle, and it makes me skeptical of them as a company. |
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That man is a homo and a liar-TrojanMan
Hell, a Ford just breaks down on you. It doesn't fall apart AND try to kill you at the same time-Bloodsport2885
That man is a homo and a liar-TrojanMan
Hell, a Ford just breaks down on you. It doesn't fall apart AND try to kill you at the same time-Bloodsport2885
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Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: Except there are videos of Glocks going off. And it’s from poor handling skills, just like the current P320. I don’t blame Glocks for these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrJMQupYxaw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENT2X4TeZIMProve it. A video of a Glock with a drawstring, and the other unholstered is not equivalent to the Sig videos. |
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Can a sig p320 fire inside a holster with a initial slight trigger pull from an object or clothing and then be jostled/moved slightly more. Yes, 100 percent repeatable and verifiable. Can a sig p320 fire inside a holster without a trigger pull - and can that be shown repeatedly/verifiably. After years of trying, still NO. Zip, Zero, Nada. Now which one of those is an example of an emotionally based stance? |
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Originally Posted By tgmr05: Can a sig p320 fire inside a holster with a initial slight trigger pull from an object or clothing and then be jostled/moved slightly more. Yes, 100 percent repeatable and verifiable. Can a sig p320 fire inside a holster without a trigger pull - and can that be shown repeatedly/verifiably. After years of trying, still NO. Zip, Zero, Nada. Now which one of those is an example of an emotionally based stance? Every gun can fire with a trigger pull. So, prove all those videos of Sigs going off included a trigger pull. That is the standard you have set. Proof. We will wait. |
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Originally Posted By tgmr05: It is apparent some cannot see that the tide is turning, much less why. Simplest breakdown - the moment the emotionally invested folks felt like the 320 was gone and sig with it, actually eventually led to more rational folks clearly see what had happened. Bad news sells and social media allows a very vocal emotionally charged minority to influence so many people with perceptions that are unproven, yet understandably merit review. The problem became backing it up and what the perceptions lead to. What gets reported one way, turns out to be false. And worse is the impact it had on people trying to cover up what happened by blaming an unproven yet very widespread emotional narrative/perception. Lol cope |
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CO, USA
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Originally Posted By tgmr05: Can a sig p320 fire inside a holster with a initial slight trigger pull from an object or clothing and then be jostled/moved slightly more. Yes, 100 percent repeatable and verifiable. Can a sig p320 fire inside a holster without a trigger pull - and can that be shown repeatedly/verifiably. After years of trying, still NO. Zip, Zero, Nada. Now which one of those is an example of an emotionally based stance? This is the Impossible proof fallacy. I don't need to prove its repeatable. Only that it's possible. Sig did not prove that there was anything in the officer's holster in the above video. It is only said that it is a possibility. The police department itself does not believe the foreign object theory in that case and they are the ones with the eye witnesses. There will never be a situation in the wild where someone can't think of hypothetical cause to support their position. One cannot reasonbly demand proof of something to a degree that is not possible while expecting others to accept their hypothetical excuses in the face of proof. |
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Originally Posted By Marksman14: Every gun can fire with a trigger pull. So, prove all those videos of Sigs going off included a trigger pull. That is the standard you have set. Proof. We will wait. It has been done repeatedly. You can pull a striker fired trigger back without firing the gun, and then jostle the gun and it will fire due to the slop in slide to frame fit of the striker fired design. Youtube has the videos and they are in a lot of the big 320 threads. But because it is not bad news, the emotionally based folks tend to not see it, much less look for it. Obviously you missed all that proof when it came out. Look in the sig pistol forum and see the sticky for info/videos only. It is in there, I posted one of them. To help you some, yes - any gun fires with a full trigger pull. But what so many struggle with is how a partial trigger pull can setup a simple slide/frame jostle making it go off. On striker fired guns, it is a 100 percent repeatable verified reality. |
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Originally Posted By Marksman14: Prove it. A video of a Glock with a drawstring, and the other unholstered is not equivalent to the Sig videos. Originally Posted By Marksman14: Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: Except there are videos of Glocks going off. And it’s from poor handling skills, just like the current P320. I don’t blame Glocks for these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrJMQupYxaw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENT2X4TeZIMProve it. A video of a Glock with a drawstring, and the other unholstered is not equivalent to the Sig videos. Every ND glock video is an obvious case of a drawstring or shirt. The people in the video come out saying it was an ND. The sig videos are slowed down frame by frame by the cope brothers saying that's not a shadow, that's something partially pulling the trigger at 8am and then and 5pm it was jostled and went off. |
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Originally Posted By DR2341: This is the Impossible proof fallacy. I don't need to prove its repeatable. Only that it's possible. Sig did not prove that there was anything in the officer's holster in the above video. It is only said that it is a possibility. The police department itself does not believe the foreign object theory in that case and they are the ones with the eye witnesses. There will never be a situation in the wild where someone can't think of hypothetical cause to support their position. One cannot reasonbly demand proof of something to a degree that is not possible while expecting others to accept their hypothetical excuses in the face of proof. You just destroyed your entire position without knowing it. Can debris cause the issue? Yes. 100 percent verifiable and repeatable. Can no trigger pull cause the issue. At this time, it is possible that particles from space traveling at light speed can cause the issue. Are you in support of that? Or would a more rational approach be better… |
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Originally Posted By tgmr05: It has been done repeatedly. You can pull a striker fired trigger back without firing the gun, and then jostle the gun and it will fire due to the slop in slide to frame fit of the striker fired design. Youtube has the videos and they are in a lot of the big 320 threads. But because it is not bad news, the emotionally based folks tend to not see it, much less look for it. Obviously you missed all that proof when it came out. Look in the sig pistol forum and see the sticky for info/videos only. It is in there, I posted one of them. To help you some, yes - any gun fires with a full trigger pull. But what so many struggle with is how a partial trigger pull can setup a simple slide/frame jostle making it go off. On striker fired guns, it is a 100 percent repeatable verified reality. And not with just a sig p320….. Are you referring to the Glock and M&P videos where they get the striker to release, but it gets stopped by the FPS meaning they can’t fire like the 320 does in the same circumstance? |
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385 looks like it has a dingus? I wonder if the 385 would even exist if the 320 had one originally. |
on the one hand there's [the media] and on the other hand there's the left wing progressives, and you can't really put them in the same camp that easily - JBP
Well, hopefully we will be putting them 'in the same camp' - Michael Malice
Well, hopefully we will be putting them 'in the same camp' - Michael Malice
Joined:
Apr 2022
Posts:
642
EE: 100% (7)
CO, USA
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Originally Posted By tgmr05: You just destroyed your entire position without knowing it. Can debris cause the issue? Yes. 100 percent verifiable and repeatable. Can no trigger pull cause the issue. At this time, it is possible that particles from space traveling at light speed can cause the issue. Are you in support of that? Or would a more rational approach be better… You ignored the point. You also ignored the video and the proof. You are also dismissing people's legitimate concern as emotional, which itself is an ad hominem logical fallacy. It's a weak argumentative style that is often resorted to when you have lost the rational argument. |
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Originally Posted By tgmr05: It has been done repeatedly. You can pull a striker fired trigger back without firing the gun, and then jostle the gun and it will fire due to the slop in slide to frame fit of the striker fired design. Youtube has the videos and they are in a lot of the big 320 threads. But because it is not bad news, the emotionally based folks tend to not see it, much less look for it. Obviously you missed all that proof when it came out. Look in the sig pistol forum and see the sticky for info/videos only. It is in there, I posted one of them. To help you some, yes - any gun fires with a full trigger pull. But what so many struggle with is how a partial trigger pull can setup a simple slide/frame jostle making it go off. On striker fired guns, it is a 100 percent repeatable verified reality. Prove it that the sigs firing were partial pulls that were then jostled. It’s quite emotional of you to have to introduce other brands into this to defend sig. We will wait. |
I meant the comment about the P210's.
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Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: Great! That’s the most coherent argument I’ve ever heard. But it still doesn’t show how he ruined SIG. Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: Great! That’s the most coherent argument I’ve ever heard. But it still doesn’t show how he ruined SIG. That's a subjective standard. There is no objective answer to a classification like that. Sig is larger. It is more profitable. Those are factual assertions. It's also factual to say that they cut out many internal quality control processes and manufacturing standards that resulted in shipping guns that were more likely to experience problems than their reputation was built on. They were a small company known for making incredibly durable and reliable pistols. They are now a large company with a lot more products and a lot more problems. Ruination is in the eye of the beholder. They could still be 150 employees and be profitable, being sixth or lower in market share. They’re not. This presumes there were no alternatives presented in the history of the company. That's not the case. Example: Sigs P226 Navy was originally conceived of by an employee who did a lot of work with military and LE groups. He spent a significant time around SEALs. Seeing as how they were a high profile client he came up with the idea of selling P226 Navy pistols made to the contract spec with all the contract markings for NSW and donating part of the proceeds to the Special Operations Warrior Foundation. The initial run of those pistols sold out immediately with profit for the company and money sent to the SOWF. It was great marketing and it raised money for a good cause. Cohen came in as the project was already in process. Subsequently, the P226 Navy became a model without all the NSWG contract production points and Sig kept all the money. But it still got called the "Navy" despite that. There were people inside the company doing things to help modernize (the entire P229 is exemplar, as it included a new design for modern manufacturing techniques at the time intended to solve problems from customers and make a pistol that needed less armorer attention) and improve without compromising on what made their guns among the most durable and reliable made. There were lots of discussions way back then about modular handgun systems, optics integration, you name it...but how these things would be done (including margins of safety on products) was often hotly contested and people who fought for the customer in these deliberations often left in frustration or were shown the door. The assumption you are making is that Cohen was magic and that absent his leadership Sig would have never done anything else. That's simply not true. |
Sig Sauer is kicking A** (Page 7 of 9)
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