Stopping the motor of the world. (Page 2 of 2)
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Originally Posted By R2point0: The modem drug cartel didn't exist until the 70's, after Dune was written. CHOAM wasn't modeled on the Sinaloa cartel, it was modeled on OPEC. You are imputing influence to things that didn't exist when Dune was written. It's like feminist criticism of Moby Dick. Illegal drugs didn't exist before 1965? lol Also, we note you didn't support your previous claim about the domestic oil production figures in 1965. Is there a reason for that? My point stands. It's about cartels controlling substances that people need, or think they need, to feed their addiction. Drugs are the closest modern example. Oil is a piss poor example. Somebody, who shall remain nameless, wrote this: Dune was written in 1965, when US production was on the downswing |
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Originally Posted By R2point0: Fossil fuels power the motor of the world. Originally Posted By R2point0: Originally Posted By Lou_Daks: I do not understand the OP. Is OP saying Iran is the motor of the world? I've been assured that Sharona makes the motor run. |
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Originally Posted By Lou_Daks: Illegal drugs didn't exist before 1965? lol Also, we note you didn't support the previous claim about the domestic oil production figures in 1965. Is there a reason for that? My point stands. It's about cartels controlling substances that people need, or think they need, to feed their addiction. Drugs are the closest modern example. Oil is a piss poor example. Somebody, who shall remnain nameless, wrote this: Dune was written in 1965, when US production was on the downswing I didn't support my previous claim about US production because I was wrong. Unlike some I won't continue to argue about facts when I am proven wrong. Drugs cartels are a modern example of cartels. But it's not like cartels didn't exist before the 70's. DeBeers. OPEC. The NCAA. The NFL. Why would Herbert need to hypothesize the rise of drug cartels when he had OPEC right there in front of him? Oh, let's not forget a desert people, outside control of their resources, religious fanaticism, etc. WTF do they have to do with modern drug cartels? You aren't going to convince me that Frank Herbert wrote Dune as a drug cartel allegory. And honestly, you probably aren't going to convince anyone else. |
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
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Originally Posted By Dumak: The Saudis could stomp out the Houthis and Iran. The question is why they are not doing this. |
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
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Originally Posted By Hesperus: Also the necessary resource for transportation works on people like a combination of cocaine and psilocybin. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/383325/86A02BC7-A277-4284-AC8D-1C4BEFB1BCDD_jpe-3830391.JPG And because I like Dune memes… https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/383325/C1B44B8C-4FC5-485D-82A4-0D2FD667CF30_jpe-3830392.JPG I doubt many people under 50 will 'get' that......... 
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Originally Posted By R2point0: Drugs existed. Drug cartels like we have now did not. I didn't support my previous claim about US production because I was wrong. Unlike some I won't continue to argue about facts when I am proven wrong. Drugs cartels are a modern example of cartels. But it's not like cartels didn't exist before the 70's. DeBeers. OPEC. The NCAA. The NFL. Why would Herbert need to hypothesize the rise of drug cartels when he had OPEC right there in front of him? Oh, let's not forget a desert people, outside control of their resources, religious fanaticism, etc. WTF do they have to do with modern drug cartels? You aren't going to convince me that Frank Herbert wrote Dune as a drug cartel allegory. And honestly, you probably aren't going to convince anyone else. Welp, bub, you made the claim it was an allegory about oil. Glad to see you've retracted that claim. Good on ya. Drugs are the closest analogy to Spice in Dune. They are both drugs, after all. And addiction. And cartels who control the drugs. And the wars fought between the cartels. I mean, what's so hard about that? |
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Originally Posted By Hesperus: Spice Melange in large doses allows one to see the future and extends human lifespan.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRBmH3T8BVsCan’t see why a rich, old, powerful person might get hopelessly addicted to that.  It's been a few decades since I read Dune, but I thought that spice was necessary and used by the spaceship navigators to be able to guide the spaceships. Of course, I only read the first book, not any of the sequels. |
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Originally Posted By Lou_Daks: Welp, bub, you made the claim it was an allegory about oil. Glad to see you've retracted that claim. Good on ya. Drugs are the closest analogy to Spice in Dune. They are both drugs, after all. And addiction. And cartels who control the drugs. And the wars fought between the cartels. I mean, what's so hard about that? You've been consistently mis-stating my position and statements and then claiming to defeat them. While simultaneously completely ignoring my other points, and ignoring problems with your own argument. You just keep saying "it's obviously about drugs because spice is a drug" as if that is a definitive argument. It's the equivalent of "It's so obvious there's no point in discussing it " Who taught you to argue? Liberals? A wife? |
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
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Originally Posted By huntingAz: It's been a few decades since I read Dune, but I thought that spice was necessary and used by the spaceship navigators to be able to guide the spaceships. Of course, I only read the first book, not any of the sequels. |
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
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Originally Posted By R2point0: Inspired by TE Lawrence. Outsider leads desert tribes, teaches them new techniques. Oh, and the tribes are sitting on top of *the* necessary resource for transportation. Originally Posted By R2point0: Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Originally Posted By R2point0: Originally Posted By Torf: Yep, it's a philosophical treatise about refusing to participate in one's own torture and destruction. It's not a "Who's Who" of total world domination. Big if true And “Sabres of Paradise” |
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Originally Posted By R2point0: Lol. I retracted my claim about US oil production on the downswing in 65. That's it. That was one leg of a multi-point argument. You seem to have grabbed onto that and think you've proven me wrong while completely ignoring the rest of my points. You've been consistently mis-stating my position and statements and then claiming to defeat them. While simultaneously completely ignoring my other points, and ignoring problems with your own argument. You just keep saying "it's obviously about drugs because spice is a drug" as if that is a definitive argument. It's the equivalent of "It's so obvious there's no point in discussing it " Who taught you to argue? Liberals? A wife? Dude. It's a novel. It's a good story. It has some possible allegorical comparisons to modern life, one of which isn't oil. That is all. 
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Originally Posted By Lou_Daks: Dude. It's a novel. It's a good story. It has some possible allegorical comparisons to modern life, one of which isn't oil. That is all. |
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
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Originally Posted By dirtyboy: How many acres of desert will this take? Originally Posted By dirtyboy: Originally Posted By SystemFailCoreDump: When energy companies find a way to make as much money off of producing fuel oils from algae in the desert as they do pumping fossil fuels out of the ground, fossil fuels will become obsolete. The problem is now economics not science. How many acres of desert will this take? |
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Originally Posted By R2point0: Dune was about oil and the middle east.
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"This is a free country, and I have the permits, background checks, licenses, and tax receipts to prove it." --Zippster (4/10/13)
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Only the countries that have become dependent on middle east oil. The US and Canada would not need it if we didn't allow politicians to get rich on the CCP tit by blocking domestic production. |
Think of how stupid the average person is and realize half of them are stupider than that.
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Originally Posted By Torf: Also, I have to congratulate you on the thread slide. Atlas Shrugged to Dune. Nice. 
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"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
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Originally Posted By R2point0: To do what? Are the algae tanks solar powered? Originally Posted By R2point0: Originally Posted By Torf: Acres of desert are cheap. Probably hundreds of thousands. |
"This is a free country, and I have the permits, background checks, licenses, and tax receipts to prove it." --Zippster (4/10/13)
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Originally Posted By R2point0: Hey, I just made a side comment. It's not my fault someone decided to tell me I was wrong. Originally Posted By R2point0: Originally Posted By Torf: Also, I have to congratulate you on the thread slide. Atlas Shrugged to Dune. Nice. I’m definitely not opposed to it.  Fatboy Slim ft. Bootsy Collins - Weapon Of Choice [Official 4k Video] As for growing algae in the desert. It’s certainly something we have been doing on a small scale for awhile, but enough algae to fuel western civilization? Even with genetic engineering, that’s a few billion fucktons of algae. The Saudis would have the land and plenty of seawater for a project like that if it was commercially viable on that scale. But that sounds like a lot of work. They would have to farm it out to foreigners as per usual. |
Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague.
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Originally Posted By R2point0: Electrical storage technology will need a technological step change in order to replace diesel fuel in transportation. Remember that it's not just cars, it's ships, rail, aircraft, and trucks. And progress isn't "compounding." Moore's law isn't even a law, and it doesn't apply to anything but silicon based microprocessors. Lithium battery chemistry is about as far as it can be pushed, and lithium is the best we have as far as conventional chemistry and physics. I think silicon based PV have a little more headroom for development, but we would still need a breakthrough with a different technology to make solar viable with the land and transmission limitations that are available. Tldr there is no technology that can replace fossil fuels for transportation at a scale necessary to eliminate oil. One may show up, but you can't count on technological breakthroughs. And you certainly can't legislate them. In other words, solar panels are not going to have some grand, redeeming technological breakthrough that changes the landscape of solar power. Most people don't understand or accept this because of the other law you mentioned - Moore's Law. Moore's Law has conditioned people to think that the technological improvements that we see in the world of semiconductors applies to ALL technology. It simply isn't true. We are approaching the physical limits of wind generation as well. Renewables are all out of tricks. Fossil fuels reign supreme. Nuclear is even better. |
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Originally Posted By Torf: Algae is always solar powered, yes.  Don't mind me, carry on.
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"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
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Originally Posted By LipschitzWrath: On Photovoltaics, the term you're searching for is Shockley-Queisser Limit. It's the maximum physical limit of single-junction solar panels, and we're not far off. The limit is ~33%, and we're sitting in the mid-20's right now on commercial panels. In other words, solar panels are not going to have some grand, redeeming technological breakthrough that changes the landscape of solar power. Most people don't understand or accept this because of the other law you mentioned - Moore's Law. Moore's Law has conditioned people to think that the technological improvements that we see in the world of semiconductors applies to ALL technology. It simply isn't true. We are approaching the physical limits of wind generation as well. Renewables are all out of tricks. Fossil fuels reign supreme. Nuclear is even better. |
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
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Originally Posted By Lou_Daks: Wrong. So very wrong. The linked chart shows US production climbing in 1965 when Dune was written. It continued to climb to 1970, when it took a dip. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRFPUS2&f=M Nevertheless, oil is not a relevant comparison with worm poop. Dune was a novel, and the author took some liberties to make it an interesting story. Which it was. At best, it's an allegory about the nature of monoplies on things that people need, or at least think they need. I'd say it's a better analogy about drug addiction, and drug cartels - Spice was a drug. Originally Posted By Lou_Daks: Originally Posted By R2point0: Dune was written in 1965, when US production was on the downswing and the middle east was the only other major source of oil. The 1973 embargo didn't stop the engine of the world but it slowed it down a whole lot. It basically fulfilled Dune's premise, and really did change world politics and the economy. Ironically it was the 73 oil shock that propelled oil exploration in other locations and technological developments. Yes, *now* oil is everywhere, but it wasn't when Dune was written. (Well, it's always been everywhere, but not economical to extract.) And the middle east still exerts way more influence on the world than their population or culture can justify. Wrong. So very wrong. The linked chart shows US production climbing in 1965 when Dune was written. It continued to climb to 1970, when it took a dip. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRFPUS2&f=M Nevertheless, oil is not a relevant comparison with worm poop. Dune was a novel, and the author took some liberties to make it an interesting story. Which it was. At best, it's an allegory about the nature of monoplies on things that people need, or at least think they need. I'd say it's a better analogy about drug addiction, and drug cartels - Spice was a drug. I suspect it was really about the French Algerian war. It was in the news a lot at that time. |
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Originally Posted By Ligore: I suspect it was really about the French Algerian war. It was in the news a lot at that time. The idea that became Dune grew out of work that Herbert was doing on the ecology of the sand dunes of Florence, Oregon. The blue Water of Life was directly inspired by psilocybin. But he didn’t admit to that until many years later because he didn’t want his kids getting into magic mushrooms. But the main thing I always come back to with Dune is this.  Frank Herbert - NBC Interview “Political power may be hazardous to your health.” |
Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague.
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Originally Posted By R2point0: Inspired by TE Lawrence. Outsider leads desert tribes, teaches them new techniques. Oh, and the tribes are sitting on top of *the* necessary resource for transportation. Originally Posted By R2point0: Originally Posted By ELittlefield: Originally Posted By R2point0: Originally Posted By Torf: Yep, it's a philosophical treatise about refusing to participate in one's own torture and destruction. It's not a "Who's Who" of total world domination. Big if true |
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