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I'm not really clear about the "unauthorized" nature of the knife -- specifically, who gives a shit? I also wouldn't care if, in this situation, the cop was using an unauthorized 44mag or whatever. Dude got what he asked for. It sucks, but the lawsuit sounds retarded and some of the reporting sounds even more retarded. |
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Originally Posted By Justinandfreyja: People who have never engaged or experienced violence will have a hard time coming to grips that you will stab, jab, gouge, anything to win the encounter. Violence isn’t textbook. This Everything is all CSI and insert cop drama here title until shit really happens |
Here’s Johnny!
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Originally Posted By cyclone: there is no such thing as a fair fight Originally Posted By cyclone: Originally Posted By Justinandfreyja: People who have never engaged or experienced violence will have a hard time coming to grips that you will stab, jab, gouge, anything to win the encounter. Violence isn’t textbook. there is no such thing as a fair fight Wrong. The correct take is: “the only fair fight is the one you win.”  
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“At the end of it all, it's the code you live by that defines who you are.”
“There’s no greater enemy than the mortal enemy of a friend.”
“There’s no greater enemy than the mortal enemy of a friend.”
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Originally Posted By fxntime: The knife identified as a police firearm and is therefore legal to use. While legally fine as long as the deceased was fighting, the officer is going to get questioned about the dozen stab wounds, I guarantee that. |
Can't believe I actually said "scrotum lady" out loud. - Agent Funky
Zero to DeeJ in about 5 posts. - Troutman84
Zero to DeeJ in about 5 posts. - Troutman84
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Originally Posted By WesJanson: Gotta say, as far as ambulance chasing lawsuits go, this one is really swinging for the fences. Ask for $27 mil, secretly probably hoping to score $27k just to go away. This one isn't going to result in some crazy payday for anyone. The same agency has paid out on stuff like shooting a suspect who pulled a gun (but he was black…). So most likely they will pay out a million or so. This kind of shit happens when you pay instead of fighting BS lawsuits….. |
a loaded gun won’t set you free, so you say…
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Originally Posted By 2tired2run: Turning off cameras is a stupid move and this would be a no question slam dunk if that camera had been on. The only time that camera should be off is if they're in the shitter. My bet family gets paid cop should be fired. Self defense might be justified but the camera turned off isn't. Pretty sure his camera turned off during the fight due to suspect's body deactivating it. |
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Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR: Pretty sure his camera turned off during the fight due to suspect's body deactivating it. Half the folks here can’t understand that during a life and death fight, a button got bumped…. Guess they have never been in any kind of fight? |
a loaded gun won’t set you free, so you say…
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The chest mounted fixed blade/dagger is a great tool. I try to keep mine as close to my center line as possible so I can grab it with either hand. Paul Howe was the first guy I saw really pushing the idea years ago. The major issue with the chest mounted knife, or any weapon you carry, is that you have to make sure you are training to retain it during a fight. |
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Originally Posted By Sierra5: “Weapon of opportunity” Not really- I had one folder Spyderco for doing regular old knife stuff. The others, well those absolutely were intended for stabbing people if they were going for my handgun….. Weapon of opportunity is more like using a flashlight as an impact tool- because its main role is illumination, plus I carried an ASP plus a PR24 in the vehicle…..and yes, I used the flashlight for things other than illumination occasionally. |
a loaded gun won’t set you free, so you say…
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Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR: The chest mounted fixed blade/dagger is a great tool. I try to keep mine as close to my center line as possible so I can grab it with either hand. Paul Howe was the first guy I saw really pushing the idea years ago. The major issue with the chest mounted knife, or any weapon you carry, is that you have to make sure you are training to retain it during a fight. Main issue I saw was in having them obvious to the suspects. Know of several incidents, including a buddy who I had previously told that his vest mounted push knife was way too obvious. He only bought into my line of thinking after someone grabbed it… My vest mounted knife meanwhile just had the clip visible, could be a mini flashlight or similar, but I kept it mounted just as you said-towards the centerline of the chest. |
a loaded gun won’t set you free, so you say…
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Originally Posted By TheJudgeHolden: If only people in GD had any idea what the fuck they were talking about. ALL electronic devices must be turned off around the breath test machine to prevent interference. That includes cell phones and body cameras since body cameras all have cell connectivity these days. There are plenty of times it's okay to turn your camera off. We turned ours off during the breath tests because the video in the booking room was running Some people here don't understand that a BWC doesn't have enough battery to turn continuously for an entire shift. Especially if it's an older camera |
*post contains personal opinion only and should not be considered information released in an official capacity*
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Originally Posted By tac556: Main issue I saw was in having them obvious to the suspects. Know of several incidents, including a buddy who I had previously told that his vest mounted push knife was way too obvious. He only bought into my line of thinking after someone grabbed it… My vest mounted knife meanwhile just had the clip visible, could be a mini flashlight or similar, but I kept it mounted just as you said-towards the centerline of the chest. I use a Skallywag Tactical D2. To keep it concealed , I have my hand mic and cable routed over it |
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Use of force case. Graham v. Connor dictates that the OBJECTIVELY REASONABLE standard must be applied. If dude went for his gun, then knife is more thab authorized. Unless his department has a *strict* policy of "no knives", then I doubt the family will get much. All the claims of "wasn't authorized" and "didn't render aid fast enough" are a stretch and clear sign they are fishing for a payday. |
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Originally Posted By TheJudgeHolden: If only people in GD had any idea what the fuck they were talking about. ALL electronic devices must be turned off around the breath test machine to prevent interference. That includes cell phones and body cameras since body cameras all have cell connectivity these days. There are plenty of times it's okay to turn your camera off. Originally Posted By TheJudgeHolden: Originally Posted By 2tired2run: Turning off cameras is a stupid move and this would be a no question slam dunk if that camera had been on. The only time that camera should be off is if they're in the shitter. My bet family gets paid cop should be fired. Self defense might be justified but the camera turned off isn't. ALL electronic devices must be turned off around the breath test machine to prevent interference. That includes cell phones and body cameras since body cameras all have cell connectivity these days. There are plenty of times it's okay to turn your camera off. Sounds better equipment is needed. Agencies usually have zero qualms asking for money for the latest whiz bang toys like drones. A camera that works in all environments and doesn't cause interference with other critical equipment seems like a low bar. Also why isn't the breath test room being recorded? That is needed for prosecution. Maybe you should dial back the attitude. Kinda part of the expectation is that all Leo activities should be filmed. |
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
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Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR: Pretty sure his camera turned off during the fight due to suspect's body deactivating it. Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR: Originally Posted By 2tired2run: Turning off cameras is a stupid move and this would be a no question slam dunk if that camera had been on. The only time that camera should be off is if they're in the shitter. My bet family gets paid cop should be fired. Self defense might be justified but the camera turned off isn't. Pretty sure his camera turned off during the fight due to suspect's body deactivating it. Thats new and if true shit happens but also sounds like a bad design. Im coming at this from video solves a lot of problems. If there was video that showed what most were asserting there is not suit. The fact the camera got turned off invites one. |
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
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Originally Posted By 2tired2run: Thats new and if true shit happens but also sounds like a bad design. Im coming at this from video solves a lot of problems. If there was video that showed what most were asserting there is not suit. The fact the camera got turned off invites one. Its been the design of the Axon Body series of cameras since the Body 1. Its long steady pressure for several seconds that stops recording and isnt an uncommon issue. It has happened to me several times over the years. |
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Originally Posted By Coffin-Nail: AI Summary, GD's favorite. Sounds like it was written by the family's attorney. If it was a use of force incident against a deadly threat, he could have used a broken table leg to beat the man. Unissued dagger is scary stuff lol. |
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Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR: Its been the design of the Axon Body series of cameras since the Body 1. Its long steady pressure for several seconds that stops recording and isnt an uncommon issue. It has happened to me several times over the years. Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR: Originally Posted By 2tired2run: Thats new and if true shit happens but also sounds like a bad design. Im coming at this from video solves a lot of problems. If there was video that showed what most were asserting there is not suit. The fact the camera got turned off invites one. Its been the design of the Axon Body series of cameras since the Body 1. Its long steady pressure for several seconds that stops recording and isnt an uncommon issue. It has happened to me several times over the years. We had a different brand with a sliding switch over a decade back. It was MORE prone to getting moved into a non-recording position by rifle stocks and going over fences and such. Plus that brand was prone to occasionally exploding. There just isn't a perfect design. Mine got deactivated twice last night running through the woods, but I caught it and started recording again. It happens. It helps if you keep vibration on and the sound set to "low" so you can notice it. Which usually works to let you know that the status has changed. Usually. Sometimes you are really busy... The Axon cameras are probably the dominant system for a lot of really good reasons, and I do not think there is a cameras system with a markedly better activation, deactivation process. Their evidence management system for the cameras is so easy to use and unified that it takes a great deal of work and time off of the end users. Their cameras could be crappy but the evidence management makes up for it. And their cameras aren't that bad. Even if we wanted the switches moved, Axon doesn't listen to user feedback that much if you want to change something, so everyone is kind of stuck with the current design and it is unlikely that it will change. I did read about a couple of agencies that mandated different uniform placement of cameras because of inadvertent deactivation, particularly SWAT units where rifle buttstocks were consistently stopping recording. |
| The video makes it pretty clear that the attacker, I won't call him victim, was using his superior weight to get control over the deputy when he deactivated the camera. Deputy looks to have been jammed into a corner and being forced onto his back. That's a bad place to be fighting someone 150 pounds heavier than you |
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Originally Posted By Justinandfreyja: People who have never engaged or experienced violence will have a hard time coming to grips that you will stab, jab, gouge, anything to win the encounter. Violence isn’t textbook. Damn straight! |
Technology: the third Anti-Christ.
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"When they arrived, the video shows Layton telling Fogle that he would take off his handcuffs if he cooperated. Once inside, Layton removed Fogle’s handcuffs, and Fogle put his hands on his head. Layton told Fogle he didn’t have to do that, but Fogle said, “This is for your safety.” That's some not-so-fine police work that, IMO, merits a lawsuit more than the knife does. |
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Originally Posted By curiomatic: "When they arrived, the video shows Layton telling Fogle that he would take off his handcuffs if he cooperated. Once inside, Layton removed Fogle’s handcuffs, and Fogle put his hands on his head. Layton told Fogle he didn’t have to do that, but Fogle said, “This is for your safety.” That's some not-so-fine police work that, IMO, merits a lawsuit more than the knife does. Attached File |
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Originally Posted By curiomatic: "When they arrived, the video shows Layton telling Fogle that he would take off his handcuffs if he cooperated. Once inside, Layton removed Fogle’s handcuffs, and Fogle put his hands on his head. Layton told Fogle he didn’t have to do that, but Fogle said, “This is for your safety.” That's some not-so-fine police work that, IMO, merits a lawsuit more than the knife does. You do, at some point, have to remove their restraints. Telling someone to put a hand on their head or some similar sort of command is... extremely common. Layton essentially told him he could put his hands down... and then shortly after the drunk/high trucker flipped his shit. |
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Originally Posted By Echd: You do, at some point, have to remove their restraints. Telling someone to put a hand on their head or some similar sort of command is... extremely common. Layton essentially told him he could put his hands down... and then shortly after the drunk/high trucker flipped his shit. Originally Posted By Echd: Originally Posted By curiomatic: "When they arrived, the video shows Layton telling Fogle that he would take off his handcuffs if he cooperated. Once inside, Layton removed Fogle’s handcuffs, and Fogle put his hands on his head. Layton told Fogle he didn’t have to do that, but Fogle said, “This is for your safety.” That's some not-so-fine police work that, IMO, merits a lawsuit more than the knife does. You do, at some point, have to remove their restraints. Telling someone to put a hand on their head or some similar sort of command is... extremely common. Layton essentially told him he could put his hands down... and then shortly after the drunk/high trucker flipped his shit. Why would you have to remove their restraints before they're in a cell or handcuffed to a wall, especially if you're alone? We had to restrain drunk, drugged, crazy, and uncooperative patients when I was a medic. They stayed restrained until they were turned over to the ER or the MPs. I had seen too many guys just lose it and start swinging when they were under the influence of something. |
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Originally Posted By curiomatic: Why would you have to remove their restraints before they're in a cell or handcuffed to a wall, especially if you're alone? We had to restrain drunk, drugged, crazy, and uncooperative patients when I was a medic. They stayed restrained until they were turned over to the ER or the MPs. I had seen too many guys just lose it and start swinging when they were under the influence of something. We do blood draws and BAC uncuffed if the suspect appears compliant, like this guy did. The only thing I would critique him on is the preattack indicators were there, he just didn’t recognize them. This is also a pretty rural county, I won’t discount someone’s work usually because of location, but I doubt they have dealt with much. |
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Originally Posted By Capt-Planet: The bodycam was on up until they were actively fighting once the suspect was on top of the deputy. It seems like it got accidentally deactivated while fighting. Then he reactivated it after they had secured the guy and were giving medical aid. It being "muted" was during the pre-recording buffer, which is what it's designed to do. There's literally nothing the deputy could do to change the muted portion. Watching the bodycam, I'm inclined to say "good stab". I'd assume he should have secured his pistol before doing the breath test, but the deputy isn't the one who escalated anything. Originally Posted By Capt-Planet: Originally Posted By 2tired2run: Turning off cameras is a stupid move and this would be a no question slam dunk if that camera had been on. The only time that camera should be off is if they're in the shitter. My bet family gets paid cop should be fired. Self defense might be justified but the camera turned off isn't. The bodycam was on up until they were actively fighting once the suspect was on top of the deputy. It seems like it got accidentally deactivated while fighting. Then he reactivated it after they had secured the guy and were giving medical aid. It being "muted" was during the pre-recording buffer, which is what it's designed to do. There's literally nothing the deputy could do to change the muted portion. Watching the bodycam, I'm inclined to say "good stab". I'd assume he should have secured his pistol before doing the breath test, but the deputy isn't the one who escalated anything. Agreed, typical GD PDS crew |
Ad Lucem: Towards Light
This information is a general statement of law and procedure and not a substitute for specific legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.
This information is a general statement of law and procedure and not a substitute for specific legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.
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Originally Posted By curiomatic: Why would you have to remove their restraints before they're in a cell or handcuffed to a wall, especially if you're alone? We had to restrain drunk, drugged, crazy, and uncooperative patients when I was a medic. They stayed restrained until they were turned over to the ER or the MPs. I had seen too many guys just lose it and start swinging when they were under the influence of something. Compliant arrestees are typically uncuffed during the intox process. A part of that is because they are usually in a controlled facility and have been searched multiple times by the time they get to the point of being at the intox machine. Also you need them uncuffed if you are doing SFSTs in that area though thats much less common |
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Originally Posted By JaredGrey: The state should pay for the entire family to go through Shivworks ECQC and the knife course with an attorney, and then get them up on the stand and ask them about fights at close range. Make them experts and force them to answer their own questions. |
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Originally Posted By Kiltakaze: That's exactly what this guy is for https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/293626/IMG_6909_jpeg-3829559.JPG |
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