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Posted: 6/6/2001 3:31:39 PM EDT
My mom and I were having a conversation yesterday about the consequences of committing a significant wrong against another person(who did nothing to deserve it). She feels that some day, some how, that "wrong" will come back to the person who committed it. She really thinks there's no question about it, that the perp WILL get his/hers for what they've done. It might be in a week, might be in a year, might be in ten years...whatever. According to her, the consequences will come for those who choose to live by a shitty personal code. I told her that everyone has ups and downs in their lives, and that inevitably the perp will experience "bad news" simply by living his/her life. I told her that to me, that doesn't necessarily mean the two instances are in anyway connected. The discussion was really based on the subject of revenge. She feels that holding on to an anger and revenge mind set is self destructive to live with. It does that person no good. I told her that even if she's right, if the perp involved gets hit by a bus 10 years from now, I wouldn't be around to see justice served and that's what gives me satisfaction, seeing with my own eyes that a wrong has at least been personally addressed. It's comforting, what can I say? What's your take on the whole Karma thing, and what my mom seems to think? I know it depends on the circumstances of the wrong in question, but generally how do you feel about this sort of thing?
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 3:41:04 PM EDT
Its a matter of how you want to live your life. Karma goes beyond this life for buddists. The bad guy may come back ot earth as an earthworm. Basically what goes around comes around. Ultimately you have to be happy with yourself and the kind of life you have led. You dont want regrets when you are on your death bed. You wont get the satisfaction but youll be content with yourself. This is a common theme on Christianity, Islam and many other religions. Revenge and bad feelings towards others will ultimately effect you and your happiness. Then you lose. If you kill a guy that your wife is cheating on you with, hes dead but you'll be in jail. Its better to move on and find a better life. Not to mention Tyronne in your cellmate may find you attractive!
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 3:41:47 PM EDT
I like the revenge angle. Like you said, there is something about watching justice served that is satisfying.
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 3:43:34 PM EDT
My karma ran over your dogma. Do you really think there is a cosmic balance ledger marking up rights and wrongs until everyone's even throughout several lifetimes? Sounds a mite far-fetched to me.
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 3:44:27 PM EDT
It better damn be true, because I want to relish the day when all of the people who have tormented and wronged me all of my life finally get their just desserts. Stinkin mean bastards.
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 3:44:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 3:45:13 PM EDT
I don't know if it is Karma or ethics or morals or God's intervention... But I just figure that if you are inherently good, overall good things will happen to you. I will always take the high road, I always help a blind person cross the road, I always turn in something I may find, I always try to treat people well. I don't let it eat me up inside that someone does something bad and does not suffer instant retribution (although I pray for it while swerving around a BMW driver yakking on a cell phone while making a lane change without indicating). I am not responsible for the ills of the world, and I refuse to take on the burden of worrying about some asshole that should be removed from the gene pool. Besides, it makes you feel better just being smug about it, that someday he will get it. If you are Buddhist, then Karma catches up, if you are Christian, the loser goes to Hell. Either way, not your problem anymore, is it?
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 3:47:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: Revenge is a dish best served cold-- unknown
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It has been attributed to Klingons by Khan in Star Trek II. "It is very cold in space."
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 3:51:25 PM EDT
I think these ideas are a way to keep all of us in line and keep us toegther. The morality difference between the communist countries and western countries is interesting. The former USSR is rampant with crime and corruption like many other countries, but they dont feel bad about it because they wee never taught about religion and christian type morality. By the same token, the Russians had nothing to believe in when they were in Afganistan and go their butts handed to them by a very motivated religous enemy. Raf, that saying comes from them Klingons!
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 3:55:57 PM EDT
M4 you have an astute mom there. The desire for revenge can eat you up and cause the other person no problems at all. They will get theirs one way or another. The time will come when you will have the opportunity to resond to something and take immediate action to dispense the justice that is needed. Live and prepare for that time, don't worry about what you can't control for eventually those you seek will be met by a bigger, badder animal that will eat them alive.
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 4:15:10 PM EDT
I believe in Karma to a degree. It's not a system of vengence but a system of balance. Just like Yin/Yang, good/evil, full/empty, positive/negative, growth/destruction. When one side grows to powerful, the other side will either spring back and equalize or destroy both sides trying to. Everything in the universe likes to exist in a state of equilibrium. It makes sense that this would apply to good/evil too. If you are a person who continually acts out in negative or evil ways, it will eventually catch up with you. Not necessarily in an eye for an eye, but in a cumulative negative effect. Since evil behavior is in itself destructive to begin with, that person's own actions will lead to his or her own demise.
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 5:34:50 PM EDT
An eye for an eye....that's an interesting point. What if you are in a position to get a little retribution minus any legal problems? I can understand that dwelling indefinitely can cause you more harm than good, but is there nothing to be said for settling a score? Please, without any follow up sermons, I am an atheist and I don't personally subscribe to the invisible notion or faith that all injustices will be settled without any input from me. For me, it's a matter of whether or not I can feel comfortable walking away from a situation where I've been grossly wronged, and be able to live with total inaction on my part. To some extent I feel like I'm degrading my own value as a person if I fail to assign value and reaction to being wronged by another. I do everything I can to be a stand-up guy, and I feel that's worth something. Being the brunt of another persons wrong doing just seems to eat at me, when I've done nothing to wrong them. I guess I just don't feel comfortable walking away, doing nothing, while I'm left to deal with the f*cked up actions of another. Who, by the way, has no pangs of guilt about what they've done. If I don't "remind" them that what they've done to me is unacceptable, who will?
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 6:00:19 PM EDT
M4 you've a got a good point. But you have to choose your battles very carefully. I too try to live a honorable life. If I do something wrong and someone calls me on it, I will say I did it. There have been situations where I felt it was right to speak up and offend someone so that I could go home and look in the mirror. There are other docs at the hospital that kisses ass and makes me puke! But they were offered jobs and I as a trouble maker who speaks up and points out what is wrong did not get a job! Youre right when someone does me wrong, It eats me up, but is it worth your emotional and mental anguish? There are a lot of weasels in the world, but you sould like a standup guy and I think youll do what is right for you.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 12:06:05 AM EDT
The Golden Rule: Treat people how you wish to be treated, and it will come back to you. M4, is this the Girlfriend thing again?
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 12:52:06 AM EDT
I don't know about Karma or any of that other stuff.....but somehow the scales always seems to balance out...... [:D]
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 2:28:53 AM EDT
M4, I am going to agree with your mother. My perspective on this is going to be from the Christian/Biblical one, as that is what I have studied the most. I am also a police officer, for 26 years, and have seen and dealt with a lot of people and their circumstances. I have literally watched some people grow up from children to become adults and then die or get killed. A study of the Bible reveals most of our world has been established on a principle of "sowing and reaping" - as in how a farmer sow's seeds and then reaps a crop or harvest. God frequently used agricultural terms in examples for us simple people to understand easily. That principle is also restated in "treat others as you would like to be treated". It comes down to life choices for us and the reaction of the world around us to the choices. If you have determined in your heart and mind to be a gorilla, and "gorilla" your way through out life taking what you want because you can people will start reacting to you in that way. No consideration or kindness (other that your mother) will be given to you. On the other hand living your life giving kindness and consideration - being a friend to as many as you can - will usually cause almost everybody to give back to you the same. To the point: I have never seen anybody that has done wrong - AND NOT REPENTED FOR IT - ever not "get theirs" usually sooner than later. Always it comes. Of course wrongs severe enough can be violations of man's law and result in criminal prosecution. I phrased it "man's law" because many violations of God's law - which we know as sinning - we see typically as crime or violations of our laws. That is one reason I am opposed to convicted persons that get probation. They are not getting the full punishment they deserve. Revenge: It is usually associated with hatered and bitterness that is a very consuming thing. It fills your life and "contaminates" all of you. Bitter people are hard to live with and are ususally extremely unhappy people. We are not meant to live like that. We cannot carry the load without much adverse affect. What's important? Having a good life without extra stress, or going around bitter and unhappy all the time. In 10 years what will the infraction against you really have meant, anyway.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 3:52:20 AM EDT
Ok this is why I can't make fun of the tin foil hat topic, I have some strange ideas of my own. I am not a buddists, but I buy the idea of karma, I've seen it happen to me and others, in good ways and bad. If you think about it, isn't the message of the Bible, esp Jesus you get the love you give?? And like Patton I think we get more than 1 trip through life... I think that even if you don't get yours in this one, you may get it in the next.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 6:31:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raven:
Originally Posted By raf: Revenge is a dish best served cold-- unknown
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It has been attributed to Klingons by Khan in Star Trek II.
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It is actually an old Syrian proverb.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 6:36:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GeneStoner: The Golden Rule: Treat people how you wish to be treated, and it will come back to you. M4, is this the Girlfriend thing again?
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No it's not, it involves a guy that was supposed to be a friend, or so he acted that way for some time. When it all comes down to it, he crossed a line with me that just can't be ignored. What I'm talking about here is not a life long quest for revenge and torment towards him. What I'm talking about is a one day event, a nonviolent, non-illegal, way to show him that he too is subject to having HIS line crossed. After that, end of story, never to be brought up again. I'd like to think of it as the final chapter, which is easily forgotten. Unlike sitting here and doing absolutely nothing? I appreciate the advice, but a lot of it is based on "Gods" rules, and I am a non-believer, so that provides me with little in the way of real life solutions. I respect that some of you feel that God and the universal laws will take care of retribution, but try to understand that I don't believe in that. I have one of two choices, and neither involves faith.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 10:51:28 AM EDT
Alright then, Your two choices are: Rise above it and pat yourself on the back for being a better man than he, having a solemn pride that you ultimately did the right thing; [u]then get on with life[/u], or... Do what you have to do, accept that Karma will take it's toll on you, take your licks, then get on with life. Back to the Golden Rule...would you want to be treated the way you intend to treat him, if you did what he did? Do what you gotta do, bro!
Link Posted: 6/8/2001 2:32:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M4:
Originally Posted By GeneStoner: The Golden Rule: Treat people how you wish to be treated, and it will come back to you. M4, is this the Girlfriend thing again?
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No it's not, it involves a guy that was supposed to be a friend, or so he acted that way for some time. When it all comes down to it, he crossed a line with me that just can't be ignored. What I'm talking about here is not a life long quest for revenge and torment towards him. What I'm talking about is a one day event, a nonviolent, non-illegal, way to show him that he too is subject to having HIS line crossed. After that, end of story, never to be brought up again. I'd like to think of it as the final chapter, which is easily forgotten. Unlike sitting here and doing absolutely nothing? I appreciate the advice, but a lot of it is based on "Gods" rules, and I am a non-believer, so that provides me with little in the way of real life solutions. I respect that some of you feel that God and the universal laws will take care of retribution, but try to understand that I don't believe in that. I have one of two choices, and neither involves faith.
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M4 - If you will re-read my post you will see I dod not say "if you have faith..." or "if you believe in God...", etc., all will turn out OK. The point I was attempting to make in a kind way is you are the sole owner of your decisions and subsequent conduct. If, in your heart and mind, you determine to do what is "wrong", and do not give me that bullshit arguement "who is to say what is right or wrong", then you better accept the fact there is a price to pay. Now - are you to become the chosen implement of retrebution in the world? Probably not. If you have spoken to this person man to man and informed him that what he did is wrong and an offense to you and he has done nothing about it, then you know that person has no respect or consideration, or fear, of you. If you are looking for "reestablishing the line" then the correct time to have reacted to this persons actions was immedately after the infraction occurred. If you did not do that for whatever reason then now what you want is some kind of satisfaction to massage your ego. Bubba, I guess it depends on how mature you are.
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