[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Nuke Question (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/9/2004 10:26:30 AM EDT
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This is a spinoff from the Suitcase Nuke thread. Have any of you guys worked with "special weapons" in the past, or have real knowledge (The ability to recite dialogue from Dr. Strangelove doesn't count!)? One of the points about the missing Soviet nukes is that they've been gone for some time now. Are there critical components that require periodic maintenance? If they are neglected for an extended period will they become relatively useless for creating a nuclear detonation? What's the shelf life on these things? I've heard that Stingers go bad (battery and other things) over time, and a nuke has to be more complex than a shoulder launched IR missile. |
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Tom Clancy talks about the use of tritium in nuclear weapons in "Sum Of All Fears" I know he is not a nuclear phyisicist, but I believe he has researched this or at least based this on something he believes to be fact. Tritium is a good booster for a nuclear weapon, but it breaks down quickly so is usually not added until there is a high likelyhood that the warhead would be used. In a suitcase bomb, the tritium would break down quickly and would significantly reduce the yield or even make it so the bomb is a fizzle (fairly big explosion, realizes a lot of radiation, but doesn't go fully critical) |
I can't talk about this stuff but get Richard Rhodes "Dark Sun" if you want to learn about how it all works. His "Making of the Atomic Bomb" is a must read!  
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Well, this makes me fell much better now knowing this. Since this IS the Russians we're talking about, I know we're fine. Because they'd have naught to gain from terrorists striking at us. Because they'd NEVER have technicians working on an enemy's weapons systems as our teoops are moving in. Because of these things..... I know there's simply no chance a Russian would supply the terrorists with the means to keep a bomb in working order, be that parts or the technicians themselves. |
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Yes...for seventeen years. All nuclear weapons constain "Limited Life Components", or LLCs. They do degrade over time, as do virtually all radioactive materials. The rate of decay for each of the components is very predictable. Shelf life for different weapons is somewhat variable. For that reason, every so often the weapons in the stockpile are sent to the depot for an "overhaul". The LLCs are replaced and the old ones recycled and newed. Permitted to age, the yield of the weapon will degrade with time. The warhead yield is greatest on the day it leaves the factory. What specifically do you seek? Try here for more info: nuclearweaponarchive.org/ |
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Sorry guys, Nukes are like Diamonds and Guns-They are with you forever-or at least as long as you are alive. Tritium is used to increase yield, the Russians were famous for using it in their weapons because they were unable to get the delivery acuracy that we did so they made their warheads bigger and dirtier. Tritium does have a long half life, don't know off hand, but the quoted 12 years sounds about right? I've got a lay-down timer for a B-28 (tactical nuke), and let me tell you, that thing will outlast the cockroaches. It was made in 1958 and still looks new. No corrosion, plastic insulation on the wires and rubber wire sleeves are still very flexible. You can't go by maintenance intervals to determine how effective they may or may not be. This is a game where we and the Russians are wayyy overzealous in maintaining the weapons... Believe it or not, we X-ray the washers that go into nukes. Ever seen a washer crack, especially one tightened properly with a torque wrench? Dave |
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In my way of thinking a low yield nuke would be worst then a high yield regular bomb. Even if it was only at 10% full power it'd still take out, what, a couple miles. In a city like New York or L.A. you'd have hundreds of thousands killed if it was done durring peak hours. If they did that to 8 cities the people in this country would go nuts. Heck, when a city wins a freakin' sports game they almost burn it down to the ground. Can you stop and think what would happen if 8 to 10 of our major cities were nuked? I'm damn glad that I live in the boon docks away from any major city. Prepare for the worst, pray for the best. 
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| I worked as a CA at a "hard" site in Germany, and the ordanance company that took care of 'em was very frequently performing maintenance of one kind or another on 'em. I don't know exactly what they were doing, though; all I did was open my side of the bunker door lock, and stand guard to the exclusion area. |
Doubt that DOE/DoD uses cost accountants the way commercial industry does, Designing and building stuff to last forever (save for things like decay) is easy. Designing it cheaply is the trick. I would never bet against a nuke going bang. |
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Wouldn't comment on the specifics of mechanisms, but I can tell you that circuitry (to do any function) that not only can, but absolutely will work, and do so over time, is not as tough to do as it sounds (but it is not cheap, hence the reason you don't see it in your car or toaster). And it is infinitely easier now than it was in the days of vacuum tubes. That being said, I still wouldn't bet against one going bang, although the likelihood of a "dirty dud" may be greater (depending on provenance and vintage) |
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It's not really so much the mechanical parts as the material. Fission weapons usually use an "initiator" that spews out neutrons at exactly the right time. that's a radioactive component, and has a half life, which means it goes bad over time. Polonium (Po-210) can be used--it emits alpha raiation, which is combined with Beryllium, which absorbes alpha and emits nuetrons, and the neutrons start the chain reaction. Po-210 has a half life of only 140 days. So you can guess that after a few years without maintenance the trigger could go bad, resulting in a fizzle if someone tried to detonate the bomb. |
Beryllium is a neutron reflector and doesn't emit neutrons! Electronics degrade over time due to the Ionizing radiation. Same thing happens to High Orbit Satellites, the Ionizing radiation destroys even the hardened electronics over time! |
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Depends on the structure of the electronics (some are more susceptible to upset than others) combine that with other stuff and suffice to say that I don't think electronics would be the weak link in the chain. It is interesting that the ramifications of a dirty bomb could be as serious (economically) as a suitcase unit going off as intended... (either way the area would be perceived as uninhabitable for decades) |
From pearl1.lanl.gov/periodic/elements/4.html
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Thanks for the Correction fizassist!!!!  I had pretty much forgotten its use with Polonium! I am very familiar with its use as a reflector! Its a nasty metal by the way, We use to keep our Beryllium EOD tools locked up!
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actually, clearances are one of the good things about this area... any of the bad guys who read anything will be forced to assume it was written by people who don't have any direct connection in the field, and those of us that speculate (either right on the mark or way out in left field) will be of absolutely no use and may even screw up someone who is trying to get useful info... sometimes the 'net metes out it's own special brand of justice 
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You ain't kidding. There's a lot of research into CBD at Los Alamos; it's bad stuff. In a way, it's good that so many of the things necessary to make a good nuke are really bad for a person. It discourages the casual experimenter.
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Its my belief, unless your highly trained in the Nuclear arena, you will kill yourself before you even get a device built by either one or multiple maladys like berylliosis, heavy metal poisoning, radiation sickness either thru inhalation,/injestion/too much exposure/ criticality event! I saw the slide show of Dr. Louis Slotin as he wasted away from a 1,000 rads recieved in a criticality event! Not pretty but would be cool for any terrorist type to go that way! |
I read the report that included the pics of Dr. Slotin about thirty years ago. His was not a pretty death. About twelve years ago, I had an opportunity to discuss his accident and death with Dr. Edward Teller. Teller confirmed what I had suspected: Slotin was foolishly careless and it cost him his life. I'll give him this though: During his neutron flux experiment, when his screwdriver slipped and the two hemispheres of nuclear material came in physical contact, beginning a critical mass reaction, Slotin immediately recognized that (1) he was doomed, (2) the entire lab and possibly the site might be doomed; at which point he reached in and grabbed the two masses and separated them, ending the danger. The dragon can get real angry if mishandled. |
I thought so. He was a sharp dude. One eye wandered a bit and he struggled a bit to get around...but he was as bright as a new penny. I wish we'd had more time, I wanted to ask him about his work with Stan Ulam on the two-stage implosion bomb. I considered myself very privileged to be seated next to him discussing the early years. |
Ahhh, Beryllium Contact Disease....very nasty... We use beryllium / copper tooling in our Capacitance Discharge welders at work...VERY TOUGH material... |
If Slotin had paniced, it would have gotten real ugly! IIRC, he was lucking that the acted so fast as a second or two more the two masses would have melted and would have gotten some yield ( very dirty)! A few others died similarly will playing with the "Dragon", not a pleasant way to die! Fascinating that you got to meet and talk to Dr. Teller, definately an honor! Dr. Teller along with being a brilliant Physicist was spot on about the dangers of Communism! |
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Quoted: It's a lot harder to get that can of sunshine to do it's thing than most people think. The circuitry for, and the timing/detonation mechanism itself is absolutely critical, and doesn't withstand getting knocked around much. If all the detonating charges don't go off at the same instant, critical mass isn't achieved, and you end up with a "dirty" bomb. Believe me, the lay down timer I described is very, very sturdy. In fact, the weapon it belonged to had several versions that entailed swapping nose cones for different missions. In the role that this timer would have worked, the weapon has a tungsten penetration tip like a spear that allows the bomb to penetrate 3 feet of reinforced concrete, wait for a predetermined time, then detonates itself. The idea is to take out airfield runways and advancing armor in the mountains. Drop the nuke and have it timed to go off when the tanks get there. Everyone goes home safe-unless the KGB assasinated the pilots before they showed up for work. I wish I could post pictures... This thing has a thick, heavy magnesium case, CNC machined gears and eccentric cams that were cut with wire EDM. We didn't have that technology until 20 years later in industry..... It's scary what the .gov has available at their disposal. Oh, BTW-you talked about explosive charges having to detonate at the same time for the weapon to detonate. That's only true of implosion weapons like the Hydrogen bombs used in WWII. Current weapons are "gun" type where the explosive is only used to drive a pellet into the pit where it impacts with the mass. Similar principal in that you are compressing the fissible material to get it to hand off electrons (start the chain reaction), but MUCH more reliable. Ask Oppenheimer how close the nuke program came to being snuffed for the failed tests... Dave |
Here is what I think; 911 tells me when they used planes to bomb buildings they did not have the shit to detonate any nuclear device. and if they did have the device in there possession its a dud! see when they have to build improvise bombs instead of bringing stuff here which we know they have plenty of over there somebody is doing there job to keep it from being brought over here. after 911 they have blown there chances of setting a nuclear bomb off because paranoia is at full alert! |
All current U.S. Special Weapons are implosion devices, the last gun-type weapons we had in operation were for Artillery projectiles! |
Way wrong. If you even tried to use plutonium in a gun-type fission device neutrons released from spontaneous fission of its even-numbered isotopes would likely trigger the nuclear chain reaction too soon, resulting in a "fizzle" of dramatically reduced yield. |
On other issue about "suitcase nukes" * is command and control. Our nuclear weapons have very discrete safeties and command and control safeguards built into them, and the Russian weapons aren't much different (though not as technologically advanced). Having a weapon may be good, but not only do you have to have the right codes to "unlock" the weapons, the signals used to unlock, arm, and fire the weapon have to be generated in a VERY specific manner. So, without that equipment, the best the terrorists can do is a radiological scatter device, unless they want to reengineer the entire weapon. Contrary to what Tom Clancy says, that's not easy to do. While a scatter device is pretty nasty, it's not the same as a full yield. * I've never liked that term--a "suitcase" nuke would weigh in at a couple hundred pounds and take a lot of care and feeding to make it work. It's not like someone could carry it in a briefcase, in spite of what the movies show! LWilde:  That must have been quite an honor to meet Mr Teller. Can you get into the specifics of how and why? As far as beryllium goes, is it a good idea to buy this off of Ebay? |
Actually, it was. Dr. Teller and I were on the same flight across country. I had not yet retired from the Navy. We met in the gate waiting area. His young female "escort" was just all agog...telling me, "That's Dr. Teller, you know!" I said, "Yes, I know," and asked him if I could join him. We talked for a couple of hours in the terminal and on the flight. He proved to be an extremely sharp old coot. We discussed the Teller - Ulam two stage implosion hydrogen bomb design, his role in developing the "Super", what it was like working for Oppie and General Groves, and how Slotkin killed himself. IIRC, he did say there were more reds uncaught working at Los Alamos, which would back up what we now know from the Venona decrypts. I pinged him on a few technical issues but very little and all UNCLAS. IIRC, the Cold War had yet to end so our conversation didn't cross the line. I remember discussing how badly Slotkin was burned by the "blue flash". I told him about the pictures I had seen many years ago of Dr. Slotkin showing his arms and torso and the incredible damage done by the huge neutron flux that hit him. Slotkin was a good scientist. He worked as hard as he could until the drugs and the damage to his body took over, to give as much info to the medics as he could about how the radiation was affecting him. Eventually, the morpine dosages just got too large and he went into a coma and died shortly thereafter. Oh...FWIW, I have some pics of nuclear weapons, including a fairly good "cartoon" of a B-28 two stage TN bomb around here somewhere. All UNCLAS mind you...in case you're wondering. I'd be glad to share them...but I don't post pics too much. If you are a paying member, does that permit you to post onsite...or do we still have to use a third-party to host them? Forgive my old man ignorance...when I went to school, we used slip-sticks. And...FWIW, I wouldn't have anything to do with that Beryllium device. Beryliosis is a very nasty disease. |
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The original F-14 brakes were made with Beryllium. The old I-Level brake shop at Point Mugu was the last F-14 beryllium brake rework facility in the Navy. When they removed the last beryllium brake assembly they decontaiminated the building. The walls and ceiling of the room where the facility was were torn down and hauled off as HAZMAT. The Navy, California and the EPA monitored the work site for 10 years after they rehabbed the place.
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Was'nt there a move about this? Fat man, Little Boy, with Jon Cusak in it? |
Yes. In the grand scheme of things, the Slotkin death, though tragic, was small potatoes, but the Hollywierds played it up into a major issue in the movie. They also dwelt on Oppie's affair and General Grove's warmonger attitude to nuke the Japs at all costs. 
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Somebody has seen too much tv and read too many Clancy novels. |
IIRC, critical mass of uranium is about 45 lbs. You could make one under 100 lbs without shielding. That might be man-portable if the man was strong enough, but he wouldn't be waltzing down the sidewalk with a spring in his step. |
Hmm, no shielding and 2 masses (gun system) less than 3 feet apart, yikes!!!! I wouldn't want to be around that "suitcase" for very long! |
The B28 was a implosion bomb, here is what I found on Google, here is a good site for info! nuclearweaponarchive.org/Library/Brown/ The B-28 - this is a speculative diagram of the design BTW!!! 
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MY GOD! The freaking terrorists will see this! We are SO screwed! 
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Here is some more good info from that site: nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Weapons/Pal.html nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Weapons/Allbombs.html |
Dont worry, even the most official documentation has been "Modified" in case it falls into the wrong hands. |