Posted: 7/5/2004 7:37:20 PM EDT
|
Maryland Public Television is showing a special on the Spartans. And it got me to thinking how much of a blood bath would ensue if they where pitted against any modern day military. With both sides where equally equipped. And well trained to use that equipment. Would they kick ass? Or hold there own? And for those of you that do not know of them, for there time they were a true group of hard asses. I think, considering there way of life they would be eating corn flakes on the corpses of their victims. |
The Marines start at 18 and end at what ever age they are forced to retire at. The Spartans started pretty much as soon as you can walk and ended when you where dead. Plus their entire society was almost entirely built around warfare. Plus they did not have the privilege of being tied to a leash by a congress that did not let them do what needed doing. |
Ugh.. Grrr... Uh, Huh?  God, I love inter-service rivalry! Now go jump out of a perfectly good airplane and get 2" shorter! 
|
|
Sparta lasted for 700 years in a VERY violent and warfare torn part of the world. That should help answer your question. Will America last 700 years? I wish we had Lycurgos' Laws in effect here. Michael Moore would have been exposed as an infant and that would be the end of the matter. |
|
At birth, if a Spartan (or Lacademonians as they called themselves and hence the lamda - inverted "V" they bore on their shields) child looked unhealthy, the child was taken to the mountains and left to die. Cruel but pragmatic if one considers the nature of Spartan society. Around the age of 12 the Spartan male joined his squad and learned to live within the male community. Spartan boys weren't fed much and were expected to steal what they needed. The intent was to make them clever and self sufficient. Woe to the boy who was caught though. Besides atheltics, Spartan boys were taught to speak with few words. Thus, anything they said was very thoughtful and concise. King Leonidas's response of "Molon Labe" to Xerxes wasn't as clever as it was more typical of the "laconic" response in which Spartans were trained (sorry, but I wish I could say it better but with more time and reflection I could). As they grew older, they were taught military drill especially marching. This enabled to serve within the phalanx - the popular military formation of the time. Because the Spartans drilled full time and did not engage in agricultural work or other occupations that distracted them from drilling, they became the best full time soldiers with the highest training of all Greeks. One of their laws was not to fight the enemy. The reason being is that a state engaged in constant warfare becomes progressively better and the Spartans didn't want an enemy who could match them in battle. When the Peloponnesian War broke out, this all changed and many of their enemy states became very proficient. Still, the myth of Spartan superiority endured and this was in part because the men of Spartan training and drill was better. They marched to the beat of flutes (easier to hear a flute than a drum) which provided better unit cohesion during a battle. While other Greek states founded colonies to help with their population, Spartan expanded herself at the expense of her Peloponnesian neighbors. She conquered them (OK, they did find a colony in Italy - Tarantum or modern day Taranto). By conquest she provided herself with a ready supply of slave laborers (helots) who would perform the menial chores including agriculture. Another class were their periokoi (sp) - freeman, who were not Spartans (Lacadaemonians) and did not have any right to vote. Periokoi could serve as peltast or auxiliary roles in the Spartan Army. Because the Spartan society was reliant upon slaves, the Spartans could devote their time to drill. It also had the same inherent fears that any slave society has - slave revolts. Battles were largely shoving matches between phalanxes. The one that shoved harder won. Epimandos (sp?) a Theban who was hostage to the Spartans during his youth understood their tactics. To overcome them, he arranged his men in 16 deep ranks (as opposed to the 9-12? deep Spartan ranks). He also reversed the order of battle and placed his men directly opposite from the normal deployment. Let me digress, the "right" was always considered the place of honor in the battle and thus the biggest, baddest army was placed on the right. Epimandos (sp?) deployed his men on the left flank of his army (of allies). Thus, when the two clashed at Leutra, the Thebans crushed the Spartans. They followed up on their victory by liberating the helots (slaves). This forever broke Spartan hegeomony as now the Spartans could not feed themselves. So, if we were to fight the Spartans using their tactics, we do Epimandos (sp?) did before. We double our ranks to increase the density of men and shove harder. When they break, we pursue and slaughter them. If you would like to read more, pick up Thuycidies (sp) The Peloponnesian Wars. Good wholesome reading, killing, burning, pillaging and plundering. And you can hold your nose up in the air and say you're studying the "classics."  Sorry about the rambling but all this stuph is off the top of my head and I read it over 20 years ago.
|
|
Sparta would have lasted longer if they had been more obsessed with preserving their nation and culture instead of their race. Their only downfall was not being able to produce enough Spartans, because they were mongamous and to be a Spartan citizen BOTH parents had to be Spartan citizen (women were citizens without sufferage in Sparta). The Agoge was lethal enough but the plague and the long war with Athens and Thebes killed so many Spartans they were not able to keep up the supply of boys. They were unwilling to allow polygamy, or accept youths with only one Spartan citizen as a parent as this would pollute the race. So they expired. Prior to the war with Athens, the Spartans had been though the Greek city the LEAST involved in war. |
Even with how long they lasted it would be an interesting spectacle to witness. Using the United States as an example we are raised to fight with a certain type of farness, even in war. Like giving the other guy a chance to surrender before we kick in the door and eat the babies. Where as the Spartans would not ask for, nor give quarter. No matter whom their adversary would be. And except for there need to replace the slaves, if at all necessary I do not think they would ask for or accept surrender from their opponent. They might have looked upon it as a sign of weakness that needed to be removed.
We can always wish. Stick him a jar and through him off a cliff. ETA: What 4v50 stated above so eloquently. Despite that I think they way they where raised and lived theire life made them a bunch of tough assed bastards. |
|
The Spartans tried to lead a revolt against the Macedonians. The heavier Macedonian phalanx (along with their longer spears) crushed the Spartans. Their tactics were obsolete and attempts to reinvigorate themselves failed. Even if they did win, their tactics would have failed before the more flexible Roman Legions. Y'know, those little Italian dudes who slipped beneath the spear wall and closed in such as the Grecian spearman was helpless. Their time had passed. Even if the Romans hadn't come along, the Spartan Phalanx could not fight the horse archers who bested the Romans. |
|
Yes. The Peloponnesian War by Thucydides is an awesome read. I am reading it for the second time and I just got to Pericles' Funeral Oration. Wow! This book is over 2,500 years old but is still an important insight into warfare because human nature really hasn't changed much. the chapter The Civil War in Corcyra must be read to be believed. SHTF in the ancient world! |
|
My favorite Spartan story: Revolting Helots attacted a Spartan's farm in a rare night battle. The Spartan rushed out in the nude and slew several of the Enemy; the survivors fled. When reinforcements arrived, the Spartan was promptly fined, as he did not comply with the regulations that mandated that all men must go into battle fully armored. What a great people! |
|
Well, considering the warrior class of Spartans were homosexual - and women were for breeding only, I would consider fighting them on a field of battle to be a very serious matter. Wouldn't want my behymen broken by some gay greek warrior, thanks. Xerxes and his spartans were certainly fierce, but they were the SS of their day - largely a constabulary shock force. Skilled? Certainly but despicable if you consider their role in the society they prevailed over. In some ways, they were nothing but death squads. |
Yes, great people, I'm sure you would have made a great slave for them. Then you could have revolted and.... well who knows? Oh, YOU would have been one of the Spartans??? Really??? Are you a Navy Seal? SF? Ranger? |
| One of the weirdest (but fascinating) societies in history, a true totalitarian state based on slavery and warfare. The Israelis face the challenge of sustaining their economy if all their reserves are called up in order to fight. The Spartans didn't have that problem. They'd let the women manage the slaves while every adult man went off to war. They had close to true gender equality, especially compared with other Greek poleis. |
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.