Posted: 6/23/2004 10:13:37 AM EDT
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Does anybody have data on crimes committed with legally owned machine guns since the NFA took effect? Also, is there a way to find out how many full-auto weapons are privately owned? I'm guessing that these guns are not a crime problem, which could be used to support a push to repeal the current ban on machine guns for the civilian market. I got thinking about this when considering what an M-16 used to cost vs today. |
Then logic would say that the ban on new MGs is unnecessary. Oh yeah, there I go again. Logic. So, does anybody think this is worth a campaign? |
there would be very little i could want more then the repeal of the 86 ban / NFA, but i don't think the MASSIVE PUBLIC OUTCRY RESULTING FROM THE BRADY BUNCH ANOUNCING THE RE-INTRODUCTION OF BABY-KILLING MG'S INTO OUR NEIGHBORHOODS would ever be overcome with logic. on the plus side though, the anti's have spent so much time trying to convince the people that "assault weapons" are machine guns, we may be able to pull something sneaky after september as the general public will already think you can buy mg's again. |
1988 an officer in IIRC ohio used his privetly owned .380 mac to gun down an informant. Somone can post more. edited to correct the year. and add info. all of this comes from the gunsite website. Crime with Legally Owned Machine Guns In 1995 there were over 240,000 machine guns registered with the BATF. (Zawitz, Marianne,Bureau of Justice Statistics, Guns Used in Crime [PDF].) About half are owned by civilians and the other half by police departments and other governmental agencies (Gary Kleck, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997.) Since 1934, only one legally owned machine gun has ever been used in crime, and that was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer (as opposed to a civilian). On September 15th, 1988, a 13-year veteran of the Dayton, Ohio police department, Patrolman Roger Waller, then 32, used his fully automatic MAC-11 .380 caliber submachine gun to kill a police informant, 52-year-old Lawrence Hileman. Patrolman Waller pleaded guilty in 1990, and he and an accomplice were sentenced to 18 years in prison. The 1986 'ban' on sales of new machine guns does not apply to purchases by law enforcement or government agencies. --- Thanks to the staff of the Columbus, Ohio Public Library for the details of the Waller case. Crime Involving Illegally Owned Machine Guns Again in Targeting Guns, Kleck writes, four police officers were killed in the line of duty by machine guns from 1983 to 1992. (713 law enforcement officers were killed during that period, 651 with guns.) In 1980, when Miami's homicide rate was at an all-time high, less than 1% of all homicides involved machine guns. (Miami was supposedly a "machine gun Mecca" and drug trafficking capital of the U.S.) Although there are no national figures to compare to, machine gun deaths were probably lower elsewhere. Kleck cites several examples: Of 2,200 guns recovered by Minneapolis police (1987-1989), not one was fully automatic. A total of 420 weapons, including 375 guns, were seized during drug warrant executions and arrests by the Metropolitan Area Narcotics Squad (Will and Grundie counties in the Chicago metropolitan area, 1980-1989). None of the guns was a machine gun. 16 of 2,359 (0.7%) of the guns seized in the Detroit area (1991-1992) in connection with "the investigation of narcotics trafficking operations" were machine guns. |
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And I quote; "Since 1934, only one legally owned machine gun has ever been used in crime, and that was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer (as opposed to a civilian). On September 15th, 1988, a 13-year veteran of the Dayton, Ohio police department, Patrolman Roger Waller, then 32, used his fully automatic MAC-11 .380 caliber submachine gun to kill a police informant, 52-year-old Lawrence Hileman. Patrolman Waller pleaded guilty in 1990, and he and an accomplice were sentenced to 18 years in prison" |
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This is DEFINATELY worth a campaign. I have been writing to my Rep CAnnon for a couple months now. His take on it is that it won't get anywhere till we elect more conservatives to congress in the North East. Why he feels this way I don't know? I'd like to see an ARFCOM/Gunowner Fire Mission calling for 1) Removal of the 86 FOPA amendment banning private transfer of post '86 assault rifles and 2) Reclassification of suppressors from NFA ($200.00 stamp) to AOW ($5.00 Stamp) The second one especially should be a no-brainer. How many millions of people have to suffer hearing loss because gun-quieters are prohibitively expensive. Why require cars be quiet but guns be loud? Start writing and calling. When you call about the Klinton Gun Ban, throw these two in too. We have to stop fighting a defensive fight but move to the offense. There will never be a better time than now. CBR. Edited to add: We should all startin hitting Larry Craig in Idaho to introduce legislation like this. What if we all sent letter asking for him to sponsor this legislation with a campaign donation of say;$20.0 attached to it? |
logic schmogic, it will never work, the antis, suck |
No, but then the people who take the time to do things legally dont generally lead criminal lifestyles. Off the top of my head, the only legally owned "machine guns" I can think of being used in a "crime" are the BATF's MP5's at Mt Carmel... |
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Right now we don't have the votes in Congress to repeal bans on semi-autos. Repealing a ban on machineguns just isn't going to happen. We do have a good chance to increase the number of pro-gun votes in Congress though! Several GOA F-rated Senators are retiring in southern states and the good news is we stand a great chance of gaining some pro-gun Senators in November. Several of the potential Senate candidates are GOA A-rated and we all know how hard it is to get an A-rating from GOA (Larry Craig who fought so hard for us on the floor in March only rates a "B"). Jim DeMint (A) is running to replace Fritz Hollings in SC. In Florida there are several pro-gun Senators running to replace Bob Graham (including former A+ Senator and hardcore GOA supporter Bob Smith). The bad news is a lot of these Senate candidates are Representatives in the House, so we have to not only make sure they win their Senate election. We have to also make sure that they get replaced with solid pro-gun votes in the House. If you want to repeal the ban on MGs, the way to do it is show you have the votes to get people who support that into office. With both primaries and general election this year, this is a great time to put up or shut up. Show your politicians that you can bring the votes. |
| Why not apply on a Form 1 and then, after denial, sue in the 5th circuit? The Emerson case seems to say individuals have standing to sue on 2nd amendment grounds. Given the facts in this thread, the .gov would have a hard time arguing that MGs are "particularly suited to criminal misuse." |
| Not only do I doubt we could ever get the `86 ban repealed, I can only hope that they don't ban them outright and confisgate those already out there. Sure it would be nice and all, but unless there is more of a shift to the right I think it is more likely to get worse rather than better. |
From www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/firearmscommerce/exhibits.pdf Exhibit 7. In the year 2000 there were 1,271,568 NFA weapons registered. That number inclues dealer samples! There is also a breakdown by state. Av. |
I've been saying this for quite a while. Go at it from an environmental / noise pollution angle, go at it from a public health angle, you realize 90% (ok..i made that up) of hunters don't wear ear protection when hunting? They would have to have them off to listen for game, are they going to put big phones on before they take their shot? No way. Get them down toa $5 transfer but I'd say we've got just as good a chance of getting them taken off the NFA list at all, so why not go for the gold? |
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Just playing devil's advocate here: Of course criminals can get MG's illegally, thus making legal restrictions of any nature ineffective. However, has the NFA made it harder for criminals to get MG's illegally, due to fewer MG's being imported/manufactured/available at common gun stores? 
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Nope. The NFA of 1934 made it tougher to just buy one, but when the bad guys want one they either get an illegally smuggled gun, or illegally convert a semi to full auto. Notice that they can't stop the flow of drugs, or even people across our borders. Folks that put themselves through the legal purchase process are statistically the least likely to be involved in criminal activity of any kind. |
Statistically, the VAST MAJORITY of machineguns used in crimes are ILLEGAL CONVERSIONS OF SEMI-AUTOS. |
I can understand what you're saying, but so many of us have gotten into a defensive "Let's defend what we have left" mindset, rather than an offensive "Let's retake lost territory" attitude. The bottom line: We know what we have if we don't try. |
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Tagged. I've got to go to work now, but I have much to say on this subject. That is, if someone doesn't beat me to it! Brief references: The MG ban works on TAX LAW, as the Revenue Department has been directed by this ban to not accept the transfer tax payments on newly made (post-May '86) MGs. If the payment can't be accepted, the registration isn't valid. CJ |
See the restrictions are working. |
| That bank shoot-out in LA would become the poster child for the antis if ever someone tried to repeal any NFA law. All they would do 24/7 is show the footage of those guys pumping bullet after bullet at the cops and innocents while everyone is pinned down. We would not be able to fight them with arguments of illegality, because the sheeple do NOT want to listen to the truth nor logic. The antis would have a good chance of repealing what little class 3 freedom we have now, I think. |
Almost true. However 18usc 922(0) kills that. the below quotes are part of the below court case. UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff, v. ROCK ISLAND ARMORY, INC., and David R. Reese, Defendants. No. 90-40025. United States District Court, C.D. Illinois. June 7, 1991.
Basicly what the goal needs to be is to have 18 USC 922(0) killed. once thats killed if the BATFE won't accept the tax payment, and the registration, well it wouldn't matter. They wouldn;t have a leg to stand on if they tried to arrerst and or proisecute under the NFA for non registation or payment of tax. |
It is indeed time to go on the offensive. Republicans hold the House, Senate, and the Presidency. I realize some are RINO's, but that does not mean that we should not push the issue. As Wayne Gretzky said, you miss 100% of the shots you do not take... |
Better yet with the awb dead too it would open up the door for importation of the TAVOR. Which would make a nice complament to my baby eagle 
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"Did you hear about that fool Columbus? He's going to sail off the edge of the earth!" |