I have a neighbor who is a Born-again Christian, as well as myself, and we often talk about guns and the Bible and self defense and the Bible...

He's a former embassy Marine in Mogadishue, (Or however it's spelled) Somalia, prior to Blackhawk down..

He's not anti-gun but he is anti self defense. I have used the "protect the gift God gave you" argument and he sort of agrees, but does not think he should own a gun..Here's his reasoning:

#1 He has a temper..A bad one, and feels that if he owned a gun, he would be in jail...I'll give him this one..He shouldn't own one if he thinks he'll use it illegally...And he says he will NEVER pick up a gun in defense of this country again because of how he got screwed by the government in Vet benefits....He feels they lied to him...

#2 I asked him what he would do if he came home one day and saw some creep raping his wife. He said he wouldn't kill the guy because she will live through the ordeal and he couldn't stand before Jesus and tell Him he [u]killed[/u] a man just because someone was "hurting" his wife.

The second arguement is what stumped me. I know we have a duty to provide and protect our family and to love our wives as Jesus loves His church, but where do you draw the line as far as taking a life? Would killing someone because they are hurting someone, but not killing them, justified Biblically?

Any Biblical passages would be appreciated because I can't figure out where he's wrong... Although something tells me he is. I sure would pop some idiot hurting my family...

I thought about David, but Goliath was doing some killing..So, David's actions were justified...



Help me out brothers (or sisters) ....

Your friend has issues and instead of dealing with them he is using the word of God to avoid them.

Sgtar15

Can't help you out with quotes, but I wonder if he'd tell #2 to his wife?  

As for #1, if he feels he'll fly off the handle and kill someone for no reason, then he shouldn't own a gun, period.

Pardon me, but that man's an idiot!

[b]And nowhere in the Bible, New or Old, does it command idiocy![/b]

After the wife is raped, it will be just as likely that she will be killed anyway!!

Why would a Christian risk such a result?

Evil is evil, and the rape of the wife should be brought to a swift and immediate end.

If ending the rape requires the death of the rapist, then so be it.

The rapist's blood is upon his own head, not that of the Christian who defended his wife.

Yikes!

This sort of stuff is so obvious that I cannot imagine that anyone could misunderstand it!

Eric The(GodAndGuns)Hun[>]:)]

And nowhere in the Bible does it say you "can't" be an idiot....I don't consider him an idiot, just mislead and misinformed.

Eric, I know you're a Born again Christian. In talking with other Christians, have you ever heard "God will take care of me" or "God would never put me in that position or any position I couldn't handle"? Afterall, both statements are Biblical, to a degree.

My neighbor thinks if he is ever put in a position like the aformentioned, God will give him the knowledge and tools he needs to take care of the situation at that time. He never said he wouldn't beat the rapist to a pulp, he just said he wouldn't kill him...Because that would be wrong...

I've heard both expressions, but I find that I am in the camp that believes that the Good Lord gave you sufficient wits to handle all of life's problems.

That certainly doesn't mean that Christian wives are NEVER raped.

It means that they are sometimes raped in spite of their good husband's wise efforts to prevent it, thwart it, or end it.

While you may bear the smite on the cheek by offering the other cheek, you are surely not commanded to sit idly by while other's cheeks are slapped!

The defense of others is a perfectly Christian act.

Eric The(WhyNotJustAdvertiseThatThereIsAn'OpenSeason'OnYourWife?)Hun[>]:)]

No greater love than he, that would did for a friend.

Who said it, then proceeded to live it?

That is a good one!

Your actually friends with this dork?

Can I play?

Here's a quote for you.
Luke 11:21   When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:

The temper issue is non-sequitur.  Or maybe my statement is [;)]  I have a huge temper.  Guns seem to have a calming affect as I know the finality of that choice.

I read a quote from scripture (can't quote ch & verse)that "A strong man armed protects his home"  That's a pretty good argument for your friend!  
Another one I remember, I think Jesus was sending some (or maybe all) of the disciples somewhere to minister to a certain congregation and said something to the effect of "each one take him a purse, (sack of coins) and also a sword.  If you don't have a sword, sell your coat and buy one...or something to that effect.  
In those days the sword was the state of the art weapon kinda like the little black rifles we like so much.  Sounds to me like the good Lord is telling us to protect ourselves with the best weapon we can get...

There are some passages that would argue against him.  One I remember vaguely speaks of jews that should spend their wages on swords before food if they were unarmed.  Mayhap someone here knows it's whereabouts in the good book.

Your neighbor sounds kinda like my father in law.  When I asked what he planned to do if SHTF he said he'd rather die than not be able to live in peace in his own neighborhood.  Not willing to give his life fighting, just let the instigators of whatever trouble kill him.  Gave some BS story about how some zen master wasn't afraid to die.  I could let that go if he hadn't married twice with three kids and a one stepkid.

Idiocy, irresponsibility, and an unwillingness to physically defend home and family.  How does one describe these qualities?  Cowardice?  A desire to be extinct?  It sure as hell isn't Christian.

Yeah, I think I was referring to the same one rileyindy quoted...

I find it disturbing that anyone would put such blind faith in their idea of God's protection rather than use the brains that God gave them to protect themselves and their loved ones.

You believe this? There were some pretty dim witted people in the Bible...Those who had ears but could not hear and those who had eyes but could not see....



Yes, laying down your life for another is one of the greatest things you can do. But, killing a man for [u]hurting[/u]someone is wrong according to him....

I guess he could use the "Eye for an eye" passage, but I would REFUSE to act that one out... ewwwwwww..Let Bubba do it in prison...

I need meat.. Not just milk... I'm seriously at a loss with his statements. I can point out passages all day long about how guns and the Bible are ok, and self defense is ok, as long as it doesn't turn into vengence, but I'm trying to help this guy see the light about his logic.

I could call him a dim wit or an idiot and just tell him he's being foolish (RACA![nono]), but he has a temper, remember..[stick]...And I have enough planks in my eye and tendonitis in my throwing arm...

[b]Luke 22:36
"...he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one."[/b]

If I read Scripture correctly, killing can be justified; murder cannot.

Now, is that a Christian attitude? Isn't it our job as Christians to show other Christians and non-Christians the truth? Aren't we supposed to love our neighbors?

And I never said he was my friend... [:D]

As a Christian myself, I think this guy is really missing the mark esp in ref to the rape situation. Nowhere in the Bible is it implied that we do not have the right to self defense or defense of our families. In fact, he could be in violation of 1 Timothy 5:8. In Exodus 20:13 (the 6th commandment) the proper translation of "kill" should be "murder". These words are not the same. Some "killings" can be justified, "murder" can never be justified. I would ask him: If all "killings" are wrong how do you explain the American Revolution?(Which I believe to be a just war.)

He's not saying killing is wrong. He's saying to kill someone for [u]hurting[/u] someone is wrong. His logic is that chances are his wife would survive the rape, so how could he stand before Jesus and say he killed a man for [u]hurting[/u] his wife...

He can't understand why his pastor packs in church either...sheesh, don't we all? [O:)]

Tell that to Abraham.  Genesis 14
14   And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.
15   And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.
16   And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.

He didn't just go to rescue his brother.  He also went to recover the property of others.

AZ Redneck, I see where he's coming from but I would consider this possibility: suppose this rapist had HIV? If he should pass this on to the victim then he has passed a death sentence on to her and perhaps to the husband as well. I forget where in the Bible this is written (I don't have my concordance with me)but one of the purposes of the death penalty was "to rid the land of evil." By ridding the earth of this rapist then he could not rape again. The perp brings it onto himself if he should get caught in the act. I know this is extreme but it is an exteme senario and I hope I never have to deal with something like this. But God help the person who even tries to harm my wife!

Hi Az_Redneck, I hope this helps a little.

Luke 22:36  Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Deuteronomy 19:11  But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities:
:12  Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die.

Deuteronomy 22:25  But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
:26  But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
:27  For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

Leviticus 24:17  And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.

Numbers 35: 16  And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
:17  And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
:18  Or if he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
:19  The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: when he meeteth him, he shall slay him.
:20  But if he thrust him of hatred, or hurl at him by laying of wait, that he die;
:21  Or in enmity smite him with his hand, that he die: he that smote him shall surely be put to death; for he is a murderer: the revenger of blood shall slay the murderer, when he meeteth him.

Enough of bible verses and a little explanation of them.

Jesus did not tell them to buy swords to protect Him. After all He came to Jerusalem with the intent of dieing. The obvious intent was for them to have weapons to defend themselves with.

There are no verses about if it is lawful or not to protect yourself and your family and innocents because it is expected. All of the verses assume there is a struggle going on when someone is being robbed and if the robber dies of course the person being robbed is blameless so the scriptures concentrate on the perpetrator instead.

2 Timothy 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

There are many scriptures in the bible and it is important to rightly divide the word of God. There are scriptures regarding not bringing a weapon when you are out on an evangelistic journey. This is meant for a specific situation.

There are scriptures regarding yielding to the authorities because they are appointed by God. But this is regarding the authorities when they are coming to take you for trial for your faith in Jesus and is also only regarding this specific issue.    

James 4:17  Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Let me put it this way. If you don’t defend your wife or children or the innocent then you are in sin.

Why did he join the Marines if he is worried that he won't go to heaven for a justified killing?  I would be more concerned about Judgement Day because of a possible unjustified killing in combat than killing in defense of my family.  If I caught somebody raping my wife, I would kill him if I could and I might cut him into pieces also.

That man is an idiot.  I'm sure a lot of Marines feel safer knowing he is no longer watching their backs.

He's an idiot!

"Thou Shall not murder" has a flipside.......

"Thou shalt preserve life"....even your own.

The Bible is pretty clear if you take the time to study.
This "passive" Chritianity we see and hear about is rubbish!

Go read what the Bible says about Phineas Priests.

The current concept of "the Meek inheriting the earth" doesn't mean WIMPY!

My guess is you'd have to find out more about the guy to discover why he rediscovered or found his faith.  Some adopt a practice that gives structure and discipline and prevents them from doing things they might've done in their past, while others may adopt one that justifies what they do or follows their line of thinking.  There is one Word, but many read into it differently.  Outside of study, a whole lot of prayer sounds like a good recommendation on how to interpret it.

To defend the innocent is to do the work of the Lord.  Your friend has some serious issues that he is hiding behind his beliefs.  I am MUCH calmer and more likely to think thru a bad situation when I am armed.  Ops

If your friend is having trouble obtaining VA benefits, and wants help, have him contact me. It does NOT matter if his case has already been adjudicated, I can prolly help... See my "user info"..

this reminds me of my brother's fiance

she says she'd rather be raped than kill to stop a rape

she'd let one of her kids get hurt before killing to prevent it

what kind of mother will she make? a piss poor one. geeze. i can only hope she changes her mind once she has kids.

gahhh

another stinking anti in the family

I suppose he does not wear seatbelts in his car?

Or lock the doors to his home when he goes on vacation.

Or have insurance on his property.

I imagine he does not take his children to the Dr. when they're sick as well.

No flames but this thinking follows the same logic patterns as not defending your wife or country with deadly force.

Have him read the story about God commanding Saul to kill every single Amalakite, men, women, children, flocks etc. Then pay attention to what happened to Saul when he disobeyed God.

Well, I'm glad I didn't post right off...UPD415 has scored a bullseye!

Your neighbor, is a good example, of my contention, that most of the "church", is apostate...(and you can tell him I said so).

I'll just add;

[b]Luke 22;35  And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36  Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.[/b]

Jesus is plainly saying to use deadly force to PROTECT themselves, from thieves and robbers they may encounter.

Gotta love "christians", who don't read the Word, but let some "pastor", do the interpretation..... [rolleyes]

Lotta that goin' around.

WHOOPS!!! Sorry Pastor!!  [:I]

I guess this seed just fell on rocky soil!! How long has your neighbor been "saved"??

What puzzles me is just how this friend knows that a quick painful death will not follow the rape?

Does your friend have god-like powers to foresee the future outcome of any attack?

Most rape-murders begin with a rape, I do believe!

So how does he know it's 'only' going to be rape and not rape-murder?

[b]Az_Redneck[/b], sorry to tell you this, but your friend is an idiot.

Possibly a [u]Christian[/u] idiot, but an idiot nevertheless!

Eric The(PlainSpoken)Hun[>]:)]

Salvation just guarantees eternal life, not instant intelligence.

Eric, one of the many horrors of becoming a police officer is to find that many preconceived notions like this are not necessarily true.

I would have to agree with him. A TRUE Christian would try to walk in step with Jesus would he not?

Scripture is pretty clear. Thou shalt not ....... On the other hand you can twist the bible to mean just about anything if you try hard enough.

What would Jesus do ? He would not kill, he died on the cross with out a hint of anger.

I cant not idly stand by and let evil triumph. I will not turn the other cheek. I know I will not enter into the kingdom of heaven unless the bible is incorrect.

Why is this so hard for people to handle ? Human nature and Jesus's teaching are not one in the same. Some will died so other may live.

How in the world does a 'rape-murder' not always begin with a rape?

Maybe if we are discussing Ted Bundy, who was fond of raping his victims AFTER they were dead, but then that, technically, is not a rape-murder, is it?

It is a murder-desecration of a body sort of crime.

You cannot 'rape' a person who is not alive.

There is no will to overcome, nor resistence to the act.

Eric The(ButIUnderstandThatMyKnowledgeOfThisWholeAreaLeavesALotToBeDesired)Hun[>]:)]

these liberals will never understand. They don't know why we say the death penalty is right and abortion is wrong.


 Well, not only are we commanded to speak out on His principles(we will,if we love Him!),but we also understand how much value God places on human life. He says that because human life is of such great worth,that it should be protected at great cost. It's when we disobey him (His commands are in place for our own good !)that we reap the negative consequenses!

   

On point #2, tell him...

"Then I will pray everyday that you never have a daughter and your wife always lives near me so she will have someone to protect her."

I wrote that to my friend who told me he would let his daughter get raped.  He had no reply.

· We know that Peter carried a sword – the type of ordinary military usage.  When he cut off the high priests servant ear, Christ instructed Peter to re-sheathe his sword, NOT to get rid of it. Christ’s objection was NOT to Peter’s possession of a sword, but rather in Peters timing in this particular instance.

· We also realize God has promised to provide all our needs, including food and protection from evil. Just as the Bible commands us to work so that we may eat, it follows we ALSO have a role in protecting ourselves, just as we have a role in feeding ourselves. Legalized concealed carry may well be God’s provision for His people to protect themselves. And as we are commanded to bear one another’s burdens, it follows that one of those burdens is protection from evil.

· Ephesians 6 speaks of taking the “whole armor of God.” While we know these to be spiritual, intangible items, the larger point is found in v. 13  - “that you will be able to resist in the evil day, having done everything, to stand.” It would be easy to see these days as mankinds most evil days yet, as evidenced by even children shooting children. Many regard their state and Federal right to carry a firearm as their God-given empowerment to do their God-given duty – to resist evil, and to have done everything they can to stand against the evil one.

· In Christ’s final instructions to His disciples, He states “…he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.” (Luke 22:36) While theologians can debate the specific application of this text, one thing is certain: there is no possible way, whatever our Lord meant, that He would use an illustration (“go buy a sword”) of something He considered unscriptural or ungodly. Rather, the Lord seems to be indicating weapons have their place even in a believer’s life. And certainly Christ was not of the position that there is anything immoral in an inanimate object.

· Many may argue “God is in control” or “my life is in God’s hands.” But we would not use this to justify crossing  a busy street without looking both ways. Mattherw 4:7 commands us “You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.” We are not to live our lives in a fashion to dare the Lord to take care of us. We are to use the physical means of protection God has allowed in the world around us to take care of ourselves. Are we CERTAIN this doesn’t include firearms and concealed carry? It is only BEYOND that point, where we utilize those physical means God has already provided, that we are to trust in Him.

· John 15:13 tells us that there is no greater love, than when a man would lay his life down for his friend. It is that kind of love that Christ exhibited, and wanted us to emulate, when He gave Himself on the cross. Many regard the duty and priviledge of carrying a concealed firearm in defense of others to be, as Eph 6:13 says “…to resist in the evil day (moment), having done everything to stand…” Everything.

· Ephesians 5:25 commands husbands to love their wives, even as Christ loved the church.  The illustration given of HOW to love their wives is most interesting – “He gave Himself up for her” (speaking of Christ and the church.) Husbands are similarly to give themselves up for their wives- to the point of physical death. If protecting the wife is that important, where the husbands physical life becomes a secondary consideration, would not God have us have “done everything to stand…in the evil day?” Would not “everything” include using a simple tool that even unbelievers in state and Federal government have made available to us to protect our spouses with? Might NOT using these simple tools cause even those unbelievers to mock our Christ?

· Romans 12:18 indicates peace may not be possible at certain times. “If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.” The clause “so far as it depends on you” indicates we are not to give offense But it is also a caveat indicating that it doesn’t always depend on you.  It is at those times that the “peace” is to be breached, and violence done in self-defense, for the purpose of restoring peace, until it can depend solely on you again.

· Matthew 25 speaks of the talents God gave for men to invest for him. Scripturally, “talents” were a monetary unit, but  in a Divine sense of irony, application can also be made to our  inclinations and abilities. There are, within the body of Christ, those with the inclination and ability to stand armed, in defense of God’s people, certain of whom may themselves not be of the ability to defend themselves. Those of that inclination and ability should be allowed to use their God-given talents.  Luke 17: 2 indicates it would be better for a man to have a millstone tied about his neck, than to offend one of these little ones. If harming one of the defenseless children is that despicable in God’s sight, can allowing them to be harmed be much better?

· I Timothy 5: 8 tells us that those who don’t provide for their own household are worse than an infidel. We’ve always taken that to mean food and shelter. But God can provide food and shelter – He did so with David, and Elijah, and Noah and countless other Scriptural examples. What makes us think I Timothy 5 excludes physical protection, and excludes firearms as a tool of that protection? God can provide any of our needs, including food and safety,  but He commands husbands and fathers to do the work to make them available to their family.


Hope this helps.

Sorry.  After re-Reading my post, I see that I was not clear.

I was indeed speaking of deaths during or before a rape.  The depravity of sinful humans is sometimes overwhelming in it's horror.

The bible leaves out a great deal about the early life of Jesus, but we can positively make the following assumptions:

He was raised by Joseph, a carpenter by trade, and probably was trained as a carpenter as children were trained by their parents (or guardians) to follow the family trade.

Being a carpenter, He was probably strong and of robust health as any manual laborer might be.

He was capable of anger and knew that there was a time and place to kick a$$ when it was called for: Mark ch 11 v 15
This act would ultimately lead to His crucifixion as Luke pointed out in Luke 19 v 46-47

Jesus was not acting in blind rage and He knew that these actions would lead to the inevitable consequences that He was prepared to face and overcome.

He is not referred to as the Lion of Judah for nothing. He kicked Satan's a$$ and then took the keys to death, hell and the grave from him. These were not the actions of a pacifist, IMHO.

Bro, you're a piece of work... I can see you now when a "non-Christian" comes to you and asks who the real Jesus is and they first tell you their beliefs...

Non-Christian: "I believe I will be a god someday"
ETH: "[b]Well, YOU'RE AN IDIOT![/b]"

[slap]

I'm trying to show compassion with this guy and be patient with him. As well as showing him the error of his ways, Biblically...

ETH, if I was to compare you to ammunition, I would say you're 00 Buck..Blunt, lot's of ya in their face and guaranteed to hit hard somewhere..[BD] You're ok in my book...

Your evangelizing skills could probably use a good brushing up on though [lol]

Goliath was by means the only person that David killed. "Saul has slain his thousands, and David his tens of thousands."

BTW Anyone know why David picked up 5 stones???


Back to the original topic there is no way to convince this guy and pushing too hard may not be the right approach.  Being in the military he may also have some issues that are not know to you.  If he is reading the Word he will find the truth. Hopefully it is before anything bad happens.

Based on the senerio you set forth here I don't get ETH's notion of rape then murder.  If you came home and found a guy raping your wife I am pretty sure he would do one of two things:
1. Run away
2. attack you
You are a threat to him.
So maybe,  the point your neighbor is trying to make is would he shoot a man out of rage of his wife being raped.  Would it not be "better" to pull your firearm out and hold him at bay while your wife called the police.
I personally would find it hard not to just blow him away but I think calling police and having him arrested would be the more Christian thing to do.
So I would not fault your neighbor for feeling that way and to be honest I doubt if he would change his beliefs despite whatever you try to tell him.

It is said that Goliath had 4 brothers.  Always plan ahead.

hey, tom jefferson.  good points.  in looking at the verse with sword in it, i dug up the greek in my concordance.  some passivists will say Christ is talking about the sword of the spirit which is the Word. that obvioiusly doesn't hold water because they didn't have the Word as we know it to purchase at wally world or their local bible bookstore.  the word "machaira" (look familiar? [;)]) is just that - a sword.  some have said a short sword like a defensive weapon, etc. but its plain and simple -a sword.  ditto on the right and ability to self defense and defense of home and hearth.  hope all of you have a good Independence day - and remember, we declared our independence before full scale war and trusted God (THE GOD of abraham issac and jacob, the Father of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ) for the victory.  we should not be quick to declare our "dependence" upon our government as our shepherd.    

If everyone felt like this guy there would be billions of graves and nothing left but evil and evil people.