[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Basic during Vietnam vs basic today (Page 1 of 5)
Posted: 3/15/2016 10:46:26 AM EDT
| How much different was basic training back during Vietnam vs today? My father said the drill instructors back then did some crazy shit that they would never get away with today. |
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Even the difference between 1999 basic training and 2005 basic training is a night and day difference. (Army)
In 1999 you had all male BCT platoons, drill sergeants that could swear, could strike you, and smoke your ass whenever they wanted to. You got NO contraband whatsoever, no cell phones, no free passes. By 2005 they had transitioned to mixed male/female platoons, couldn't swear, no physical contact and were limited to what they could say and do as corrective training. I'm not sure how widespread "stress cards" were or if that was a myth. I went to BCT in 2001 during the transitional period and got to participate in both styles. I also heard you get contraband including cell phones during the final stages of BCT now. |
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Even the difference between 1999 basic training and 2005 basic training is a night and day difference. (Army) In 1999 you had all male BCT platoons, drill sergeants that could swear, could strike you, and smoke your ass whenever they wanted to. By 2005 they had transitioned to mixed male/female platoons, couldn't swear, no physical contact and were limited to what they could say and do as corrective training. I went to BCT in 2001 during the transitional period and got to participate in both styles. Sounds like my OSUT in 2004. |
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Sounds like my OSUT in 2004. Quoted:
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Even the difference between 1999 basic training and 2005 basic training is a night and day difference. (Army) In 1999 you had all male BCT platoons, drill sergeants that could swear, could strike you, and smoke your ass whenever they wanted to. By 2005 they had transitioned to mixed male/female platoons, couldn't swear, no physical contact and were limited to what they could say and do as corrective training. I went to BCT in 2001 during the transitional period and got to participate in both styles. Sounds like my OSUT in 2004. See, I went to OSUT as well. Apparently its way different. In 2007 it was much the same as the above 1999 BCT. |
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Aww our jokes aren't as funny when you edit  Quoted:
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They didn't send you to basic training in vietnam You would stay stateside for that silly No shit Sherlock  Aww our jokes aren't as funny when you edit I know, ruined my response totally. 
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I went to Basic in '88. It wasn't allowed, but I got knocked around pretty good on occasion (not combat arms either). I can only imagine that '60's boot was much worse and that todays boot is much less "stressful". I don't want to go through it again to find out. |
| My guess is today when there is an inspection of the barracks, everything is color coordinated and the bunks have pretty accent pillows. The underwear in the foot lockers has to be covered so as not to offend the female DI. Everybody has to take showers with bathing suits on to avoid any sexual harassment. Punishment is probably drop and give me one. |
| Fort Dix, B-3-3' June to August, 1969. I got my ass kicked every other day for "JUST NOT GETTING WITH THE PROGRAM." Got an M-14 to the face and Sgt Futrell offered to take me on out back if I needed some extra counseling. We also had some sick SOB in A co. who would get on us too when he could. Capt. More house was a real prick and would really go over the line when we did something stupid. Like during the sixth week we held back some ammo and fired it off on during the night when the reserve drill instructors were out in the Ft. Dix dirt with the company. He PT'd us so bad we all needed sick call the next day. Not a chance we could go. So how bad was it? I thank God I had the experience and chance to grow up. I made a better life for myself and family than I ever could have expected. |
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I went to infantry OSUT at Benning (of course) in 1989.
The Drill Sergeants could swear at us, but couldn't strike us. They could, however, smoke your bags with PT whenever and wherever they felt it necessary. Not sure where this "it started getting soft in 1999" thing comes from. |
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The MTIs could get away with more and the rampant drugs and draftees allowed for quite the crash course. It was a production time, they had to get boots in Nam, so I suppose they allowed more screwballs to pass. My father went to basic post Nam and said that even going back to a volunteer force the druggies were slowly washing out.
PS....damn near everyone smoked back then, so they screwed with you more....like allow a rare smoke session and then run everyone like marathoners. Today, you can't even do PT without an ambulance on site.....at least that my experience after a guy died during a run. |
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The MTIs could get away with more and the rampant drugs and draftees allowed for quite the crash course. It was a production time, they had to get boots in Nam, so I suppose they allowed more screwballs to pass. My father went to basic post Nam and said that even going back to a volunteer force the druggies were slowly washing out. PS....damn near everyone smoked back then, so they screwed with you more....like allow a rare smoke session and then run everyone like marathoners. Today, you can't even do PT without an ambulance on site.....at least that my experience after a guy died during a run. Wasn't the guy in 1/504 PIR was it? knew that guy.. young.. healthy. Said he had a heachache and wouldn't let him stop Died right there heatstroke |
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I did my basic at Ft Benning, GA in April-May 1966 (C-5-3,Sandy Hill)
Even back then the DI could not get too physical with trainees because they would contact or threaten to contact their Congressman about it I was the trainee Senior NCO (a trainee who wore the rank of the senior NCO of my training Co, an E7) and was in charge of all the trainees in that company. (you wore the rank in an elastic thing over your sleeve) There was ONE particular NCO (E5) who wanted me "demoted" because I grabbed by the arm, a trainee who refused to report for KP. I never hurt the guy, only "helped" him get to the mess hall after he told his trainee platoon sergeant to tell me he wasn't going, and to go get him if I dared The senior NCO backed me up and nothing was done but it gives you an idea of how easily you could get in trouble for "manhandling" a trainee in those days, unlike what many of you think. That was the beginning of powerless DIs |
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I went to infantry OSUT at Benning (of course) in 1989. The Drill Sergeants could swear at us, but couldn't strike us. They could, however, smoke your bags with PT whenever and wherever they felt it necessary. Not sure where this "it started getting soft in 1999" thing comes from. I went to OSUT at Benning in 1994. While the Drill Sergeants probably could swear, all of them made an effort not to. Nobody got hit. We got smoked with PT almost daily for any and everything. Some as simple as just "Drop", some truly epic smoke sessions involving whole platoons. The stress card stuff was always rumored, and later in my career mixing with non infantry types people joked about it, but I think my early 90's hitting was pretty much a no go and efforts were being made to end free use of swears. Went I went active reserve after 9/11 and went to a drill sergeant unit it was very much stressed to be professional. But that was for non-blue cord types and reserves, so not sure what was being taught then. |
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How much different was basic training back during Vietnam vs today? My father said the drill instructors back then did some crazy shit that they would never get away with today. In the last 18 years it has changed dramatically. So I can Imagine the differences in 40+ years. The old DS mentality was here are our standards. It is a privilege to be here and in order to be here you must do this. The new DS mentality is don't worry. If you can't make it I will carry you through. You have a right to be here. I'm not saying in general I'm saying this is what instructors at AIT learn during CTC (Cadre Training) Old way: Sir out of 100 recruits we had 7 not pass a PT test. Reply: Ok send them on their way or roll them back to day one for retraining. New way: Sir out of 100 recruits we had 7 not pass a PT Test. Reply: Sir or Mam or Sarge... WHY DID YOU FAIL YOUR SOLDIERS? Here is counseling statement, or this will look badly on your NCOER, or It is your job to make sure they are trained. Old way: You are on permanent profile and will be sent to a med board. New Way: you are on permanent profile which means you don't have do anything that everyone else has to do and still get paid the same. No pushups, pt on your own, walk at your pace. Old way: You failed 2 PT tests at an NCOA. You will be removed the Army. Or 2 HT/WT tests New Way : give them a third try, or another week, or have someone else grade or another HT/WT because we don't want to ruin their career Ask me how I know all this to be true? I work at one of the largest NCOA's in the US teaching SLC. I've seen it first hand. 100 - 300 a week. 20% are walkers, 25% of all I see have to be taped and the ones with the big giant fat rolls on their neck do better than the thinner ones. I've got tons of the nightmare stories about the condition of the Army over the last 1.5 years. |
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Basic in '88. Drill never touched anyone, never heard too much yelling.
But PT your ass until you drop, yup. Turn your barracks upside down and thrown out the door, you bet. With 5 minutes to clean it up. OSUT Jan-Apr 1988, Ft Benning, Harmony Church. Home of the Infantry. My old roommate from Germany retired a couple years ago. He said he was glad to be out of the "PC" Army that it has become. |
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In the last 18 years it has changed dramatically. So I can Imagine the differences in 40+ years. The old DS mentality was here are our standards. It is a privilege to be here and in order to be here you must do this. The new DS mentality is don't worry. If you can't make it I will carry you through. You have a right to be here. I'm not saying in general I'm saying this is what instructors at AIT learn during CTC (Cadre Training) Old way: Sir out of 100 recruits we had 7 not pass a PT test. Reply: Ok send them on their way or roll them back to day one for retraining. New way: Sir out of 100 recruits we had 7 not pass a PT Test. Reply: Sir or Mam or Sarge... WHY DID YOU FAIL YOUR SOLDIERS? Here is counseling statement, or this will look badly on your NCOER, or It is your job to make sure they are trained. Old way: You are on permanent profile and will be sent to a med board. New Way: you are on permanent profile which means you don't have do anything that everyone else has to do and still get paid the same. No pushups, pt on your own, walk at your pace. Old way: You failed 2 PT tests at an NCOA. You will be removed the Army. Or 2 HT/WT tests New Way : give them a third try, or another week, or have someone else grade or another HT/WT because we don't want to ruin their career Ask me how I know all this to be true? I work at one of the largest NCOA's in the US teaching SLC. I've seen it first hand. 100 - 300 a week. 20% are walkers, 25% of all I see have to be taped and the ones with the big giant fat rolls on their neck do better than the thinner ones. I've got tons of the nightmare stories about the condition of the Army over the last 1.5 years. Quoted:
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How much different was basic training back during Vietnam vs today? My father said the drill instructors back then did some crazy shit that they would never get away with today. In the last 18 years it has changed dramatically. So I can Imagine the differences in 40+ years. The old DS mentality was here are our standards. It is a privilege to be here and in order to be here you must do this. The new DS mentality is don't worry. If you can't make it I will carry you through. You have a right to be here. I'm not saying in general I'm saying this is what instructors at AIT learn during CTC (Cadre Training) Old way: Sir out of 100 recruits we had 7 not pass a PT test. Reply: Ok send them on their way or roll them back to day one for retraining. New way: Sir out of 100 recruits we had 7 not pass a PT Test. Reply: Sir or Mam or Sarge... WHY DID YOU FAIL YOUR SOLDIERS? Here is counseling statement, or this will look badly on your NCOER, or It is your job to make sure they are trained. Old way: You are on permanent profile and will be sent to a med board. New Way: you are on permanent profile which means you don't have do anything that everyone else has to do and still get paid the same. No pushups, pt on your own, walk at your pace. Old way: You failed 2 PT tests at an NCOA. You will be removed the Army. Or 2 HT/WT tests New Way : give them a third try, or another week, or have someone else grade or another HT/WT because we don't want to ruin their career Ask me how I know all this to be true? I work at one of the largest NCOA's in the US teaching SLC. I've seen it first hand. 100 - 300 a week. 20% are walkers, 25% of all I see have to be taped and the ones with the big giant fat rolls on their neck do better than the thinner ones. I've got tons of the nightmare stories about the condition of the Army over the last 1.5 years. Damn, I could only image what a liability some of those would be in combat 
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Even the difference between 1999 basic training and 2005 basic training is a night and day difference. (Army) In 1999 you had all male BCT platoons, drill sergeants that could swear, could strike you, and smoke your ass whenever they wanted to. You got NO contraband whatsoever, no cell phones, no free passes. By 2005 they had transitioned to mixed male/female platoons, couldn't swear, no physical contact and were limited to what they could say and do as corrective training. I'm not sure how widespread "stress cards" were or if that was a myth. I went to BCT in 2001 during the transitional period and got to participate in both styles. I also heard you get contraband including cell phones during the final stages of BCT now. I enjoyed basic, in July, at the wonderful Ft Benning, GA. back in 1997. There were no such thing as stress cards(complete rumor and myth), we got smoked on the regular for whatever reason they chose, swearing was completely normal and expected, and how did one Drill Sgt put it- "A cunt hair away from being killed!" on a regular basis. Does anyone know if they still have the nut shot down in Benning? |
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Damn, I could only image what a liability some of those would be in combat Quoted:
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How much different was basic training back during Vietnam vs today? My father said the drill instructors back then did some crazy shit that they would never get away with today. In the last 18 years it has changed dramatically. So I can Imagine the differences in 40+ years. The old DS mentality was here are our standards. It is a privilege to be here and in order to be here you must do this. The new DS mentality is don't worry. If you can't make it I will carry you through. You have a right to be here. I'm not saying in general I'm saying this is what instructors at AIT learn during CTC (Cadre Training) Old way: Sir out of 100 recruits we had 7 not pass a PT test. Reply: Ok send them on their way or roll them back to day one for retraining. New way: Sir out of 100 recruits we had 7 not pass a PT Test. Reply: Sir or Mam or Sarge... WHY DID YOU FAIL YOUR SOLDIERS? Here is counseling statement, or this will look badly on your NCOER, or It is your job to make sure they are trained. Old way: You are on permanent profile and will be sent to a med board. New Way: you are on permanent profile which means you don't have do anything that everyone else has to do and still get paid the same. No pushups, pt on your own, walk at your pace. Old way: You failed 2 PT tests at an NCOA. You will be removed the Army. Or 2 HT/WT tests New Way : give them a third try, or another week, or have someone else grade or another HT/WT because we don't want to ruin their career Ask me how I know all this to be true? I work at one of the largest NCOA's in the US teaching SLC. I've seen it first hand. 100 - 300 a week. 20% are walkers, 25% of all I see have to be taped and the ones with the big giant fat rolls on their neck do better than the thinner ones. I've got tons of the nightmare stories about the condition of the Army over the last 1.5 years. Damn, I could only image what a liability some of those would be in combat You should see some of these profiles I get to read and these are Soldiers that just showed up on the Taxpayers dime to NCOA. "Soldier not fit for duty, recommend Med board" or "No Pushups, no situps, walk/run own pace, no wearing personal body armor" So WHY THE FUCK are they in the Army? There are worse then that. |
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In the last 18 years it has changed dramatically. So I can Imagine the differences in 40+ years. The old DS mentality was here are our standards. It is a privilege to be here and in order to be here you must do this. The new DS mentality is don't worry. If you can't make it I will carry you through. You have a right to be here. I'm not saying in general I'm saying this is what instructors at AIT learn during CTC (Cadre Training) Old way: Sir out of 100 recruits we had 7 not pass a PT test. Reply: Ok send them on their way or roll them back to day one for retraining. New way: Sir out of 100 recruits we had 7 not pass a PT Test. Reply: Sir or Mam or Sarge... WHY DID YOU FAIL YOUR SOLDIERS? Here is counseling statement, or this will look badly on your NCOER, or It is your job to make sure they are trained. Old way: You are on permanent profile and will be sent to a med board. New Way: you are on permanent profile which means you don't have do anything that everyone else has to do and still get paid the same. No pushups, pt on your own, walk at your pace. Old way: You failed 2 PT tests at an NCOA. You will be removed the Army. Or 2 HT/WT tests New Way : give them a third try, or another week, or have someone else grade or another HT/WT because we don't want to ruin their career Ask me how I know all this to be true? I work at one of the largest NCOA's in the US teaching SLC. I've seen it first hand. 100 - 300 a week. 20% are walkers, 25% of all I see have to be taped and the ones with the big giant fat rolls on their neck do better than the thinner ones. I've got tons of the nightmare stories about the condition of the Army over the last 1.5 years. Quoted:
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How much different was basic training back during Vietnam vs today? My father said the drill instructors back then did some crazy shit that they would never get away with today. In the last 18 years it has changed dramatically. So I can Imagine the differences in 40+ years. The old DS mentality was here are our standards. It is a privilege to be here and in order to be here you must do this. The new DS mentality is don't worry. If you can't make it I will carry you through. You have a right to be here. I'm not saying in general I'm saying this is what instructors at AIT learn during CTC (Cadre Training) Old way: Sir out of 100 recruits we had 7 not pass a PT test. Reply: Ok send them on their way or roll them back to day one for retraining. New way: Sir out of 100 recruits we had 7 not pass a PT Test. Reply: Sir or Mam or Sarge... WHY DID YOU FAIL YOUR SOLDIERS? Here is counseling statement, or this will look badly on your NCOER, or It is your job to make sure they are trained. Old way: You are on permanent profile and will be sent to a med board. New Way: you are on permanent profile which means you don't have do anything that everyone else has to do and still get paid the same. No pushups, pt on your own, walk at your pace. Old way: You failed 2 PT tests at an NCOA. You will be removed the Army. Or 2 HT/WT tests New Way : give them a third try, or another week, or have someone else grade or another HT/WT because we don't want to ruin their career Ask me how I know all this to be true? I work at one of the largest NCOA's in the US teaching SLC. I've seen it first hand. 100 - 300 a week. 20% are walkers, 25% of all I see have to be taped and the ones with the big giant fat rolls on their neck do better than the thinner ones. I've got tons of the nightmare stories about the condition of the Army over the last 1.5 years. Besides the social justice PC bullshit a lot of the other standards you mention were lowered or dropped altogether to make manning goals for the GWOT. The same shit happened during the Vietnam War, standards plummeted. Ever hear of Project 100,000? Jail or military service was still largely practiced. The ridiculously poorly written draft laws meant that anyone with any money or sense could relatively easily evade the draft. A time where there was an entire national counterculture designed to fight against it, where is was "cool" for young people to oppose the war. The only "good" times the US military ever had were doing the 80s when we got a ton of funding and no actual wars to fight. Those are Times of Plenty, and create unrealistic standards that are nearly impossible to achieve in any other time where the services aren't flooded with money, training resources, and no worries about attrition, deployments, staffing, or budget restraints. Its nice to be in a situation where you have the option of booting people who don't make standards because we had five other people fighting for that one position. But its not realistic to make believe it will always be that way. |
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Damn, I could only image what a liability some of those would be in combat Quoted:
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How much different was basic training back during Vietnam vs today? My father said the drill instructors back then did some crazy shit that they would never get away with today. In the last 18 years it has changed dramatically. So I can Imagine the differences in 40+ years. The old DS mentality was here are our standards. It is a privilege to be here and in order to be here you must do this. The new DS mentality is don't worry. If you can't make it I will carry you through. You have a right to be here. I'm not saying in general I'm saying this is what instructors at AIT learn during CTC (Cadre Training) Old way: Sir out of 100 recruits we had 7 not pass a PT test. Reply: Ok send them on their way or roll them back to day one for retraining. New way: Sir out of 100 recruits we had 7 not pass a PT Test. Reply: Sir or Mam or Sarge... WHY DID YOU FAIL YOUR SOLDIERS? Here is counseling statement, or this will look badly on your NCOER, or It is your job to make sure they are trained. Old way: You are on permanent profile and will be sent to a med board. New Way: you are on permanent profile which means you don't have do anything that everyone else has to do and still get paid the same. No pushups, pt on your own, walk at your pace. Old way: You failed 2 PT tests at an NCOA. You will be removed the Army. Or 2 HT/WT tests New Way : give them a third try, or another week, or have someone else grade or another HT/WT because we don't want to ruin their career Ask me how I know all this to be true? I work at one of the largest NCOA's in the US teaching SLC. I've seen it first hand. 100 - 300 a week. 20% are walkers, 25% of all I see have to be taped and the ones with the big giant fat rolls on their neck do better than the thinner ones. I've got tons of the nightmare stories about the condition of the Army over the last 1.5 years. Damn, I could only image what a liability some of those would be in combat During the GWOT, especially during the Surge period, TRADOC (the people who run training in the Army) decided to pass everyone going through OSUT and to push them to deployable units. Some of those that had failed to achieve acceptable standards at Basic/AIT, like passing a PT test, ended up being able to perform their duties in a sufficient manner. Others, not so much. I had one kid that was close to retarded, no social skills, and couldn't do 10 pushups, 30 situps, and ran 2 miles in about 20 minutes at best, and he was supposed to be an infantryman. He became a driver for a Stryker and was able to do that job at a sufficient level that he didn't kill anyone or become a detriment to the mission, as long as he was properly supervised. You make the best of what you have, because sometimes you don't have the option of excellence. I firmly believe that the peacetime atmosphere of the 80-90s destroyed the military culture of the US by creating an institutional standard impossible to maintain unless a unit had all year at homestation to train, full control of retention, ample budget, and no operational concerns. Nothing like hearing a 22 year veteran Sergeant Major lament that he can't wait for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to end so the Army can get back to what its meant to do, train for war. |
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My grandfather was a marine DI during Vietnam and directly after. All I know is he was a mean son of a bitch. Had his office trashed and a lot stolen. Someone may have intentionally tried killing him by throwing an unexploded HE round at him. Fucked up his leg good. He claims it was nothing like FMJ, but then the stories he tells....
He was stationed in Hawaii and Virginia. |
| Basic training is just that the basics, how to generally walk, talk, shoot, and shit. The reality of it is it's only necessary to make someone trainable, everything else is just icing on the cake. Army basic training will teach the doctrine of standard enlisted task. Even if it's just familiarity it's good enough. The NCOs at the receiving unit will make them soldiers as long as they come from basic training with a head start of a little self discipline and a willingness to follow leadership. 6 months later with good leadership you'll have good soldiers with the exception of the standard 10%. So after saying all that, to answer the question, it was different, but it really doesn't matter. |
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During the GWOT, especially during the Surge period, TRADOC (the people who run training in the Army) decided to pass everyone going through OSUT and to push them to deployable units. Some of those that had failed to achieve acceptable standards at Basic/AIT, like passing a PT test, ended up being able to perform their duties in a sufficient manner. Others, not so much. I had one kid that was close to retarded, no social skills, and couldn't do 10 pushups, 30 situps, and ran 2 miles in about 20 minutes at best, and he was supposed to be an infantryman. He became a driver for a Stryker and was able to do that job at a sufficient level that he didn't kill anyone or become a detriment to the mission, as long as he was properly supervised. You make the best of what you have, because sometimes you don't have the option of excellence. I firmly believe that the peacetime atmosphere of the 80-90s destroyed the military culture of the US by creating an institutional standard impossible to maintain unless a unit had all year at homestation to train, full control of retention, ample budget, and no operational concerns. Nothing like hearing a 22 year veteran Sergeant Major lament that he can't wait for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to end so the Army can get back to what its meant to do, train for war. The ones they pushed through during GWOT are now becoming leaders. And very shitty leaders at best. |
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Fuck ups received generally effective counseling. Not today, they are almost coddled. Not sure how the USMC is, but in know army was lax and air force was the one every1 said to go to if you didnt want to bust butt, they got hotel like accomodations. It could have got better or worse since i was in. |
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The ones they pushed through during GWOT are now becoming leaders. And very shitty leaders at best. Quoted:
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During the GWOT, especially during the Surge period, TRADOC (the people who run training in the Army) decided to pass everyone going through OSUT and to push them to deployable units. Some of those that had failed to achieve acceptable standards at Basic/AIT, like passing a PT test, ended up being able to perform their duties in a sufficient manner. Others, not so much. I had one kid that was close to retarded, no social skills, and couldn't do 10 pushups, 30 situps, and ran 2 miles in about 20 minutes at best, and he was supposed to be an infantryman. He became a driver for a Stryker and was able to do that job at a sufficient level that he didn't kill anyone or become a detriment to the mission, as long as he was properly supervised. You make the best of what you have, because sometimes you don't have the option of excellence. I firmly believe that the peacetime atmosphere of the 80-90s destroyed the military culture of the US by creating an institutional standard impossible to maintain unless a unit had all year at homestation to train, full control of retention, ample budget, and no operational concerns. Nothing like hearing a 22 year veteran Sergeant Major lament that he can't wait for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to end so the Army can get back to what its meant to do, train for war. The ones they pushed through during GWOT are now becoming leaders. And very shitty leaders at best. And? That's how militaries work. They are designed to be used, which means high turnovers, nasty conditions, sometimes questionable quality of personnel. You can't design an army based off an unrealistic standard and then get pissed when they fail to meet that standard during a decade long war. Excellence is not the standard, should not be the standard. Mediocrity is the standard. Can they do the job adequately, enough to win? If yes, no additional training or skills are necessary. Anything else is a bonus, but it can't be guaranteed. Skills, cost, availability, pick two, because you're not getting all three unless you have a ridiculously high budget. Just to put this in perspective, most officers and NCOs during WWII sucked, and those guys took over the military after the war ended. Read historical accounts, full of 20 year old First Sergeants, the average age of an infantry battalion commander was 27 years old, meaning there were a bunch of them younger. Same thing before WWII, same thing after WWII. If you're forced to allow fat bodies into the service, or promote leaders who aren't well rounded, educated, experienced, its because they were forced to promote them. Don't promote them, unit doesn't have sufficient leaders. Which once again comes down to that if your military needs a good decade to create an effective leader, your concept of effective is warped. Only in peacetime is it possible to maintain that standard, and militaries don't have the luxury of peacetime. |
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OSUT 1986.
They couldn't hit us but if we were in the way of where they wanted to be somehow we always ended up on the ground. They walked "forcefully". I don't know why, but when someone pissed them off they suddenly wanted to be on the other side of that person. Funny how that works. It was somewhat rare though, reserved for those who showed utter disrespect or major safety violations. I saw it maybe half a dozen times in 16 weeks. Other than that we mostly got the rim of their round Browns bouncing off our foreheads as they screamed at us, or arms grabbed painfully and moved in order to make "corrections". Technically they were forbidden from hitting us so did it in such a way as to say "oops, did I bump into you?". I was back at Knox for a visit in 1987 when two Drill Sergeants were relieved for punching trainees. I think they were B 6/16 or C 6/16 at Disney Barracks. Scouts. In all honesty there was little need for them to risk their careers because they could inflict far more pain with PT. Flutter kicks and Hello Dolly's all day. They could also only drop us for 10 push-ups at a time but it was just "Get up, push Kentucky, get up, push Kentucky, get up, push Kentucky, get up, push Kentucky...." so they'd still get 100 push-ups out of us. Fucking rifle drills....doing the same with M113 vision blocks (those fuckers are heavy), rolling in the mud, soaping up in showers then shutting the water off while we were still covered in soap then marching us around in the heat. They had ways to make us miserable. We'd get two week cycles of Reserve Drill Sergeants too. They'd mix in with our own Drills but couldn't teach classes so were relegated to marching us around and making our lives hell whenever there was down time. They were all Vietnam vets. One in particular was a royal PIA the first week then lightened up. He told us about BCT during Vietnam - they'd get knocked around, black eyes, stuff like that. |
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Besides the social justice PC bullshit a lot of the other standards you mention were lowered or dropped altogether to make manning goals for the GWOT. The same shit happened during the Vietnam War, standards plummeted. Ever hear of Project 100,000? Jail or military service was still largely practiced. The ridiculously poorly written draft laws meant that anyone with any money or sense could relatively easily evade the draft. A time where there was an entire national counterculture designed to fight against it, where is was "cool" for young people to oppose the war. The only "good" times the US military ever had were doing the 80s when we got a ton of funding and no actual wars to fight. Those are Times of Plenty, and create unrealistic standards that are nearly impossible to achieve in any other time where the services aren't flooded with money, training resources, and no worries about attrition, deployments, staffing, or budget restraints. Its nice to be in a situation where you have the option of booting people who don't make standards because we had five other people fighting for that one position. But its not realistic to make believe it will always be that way. Quoted:
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How much different was basic training back during Vietnam vs today? My father said the drill instructors back then did some crazy shit that they would never get away with today. In the last 18 years it has changed dramatically. So I can Imagine the differences in 40+ years. The old DS mentality was here are our standards. It is a privilege to be here and in order to be here you must do this. The new DS mentality is don't worry. If you can't make it I will carry you through. You have a right to be here. I'm not saying in general I'm saying this is what instructors at AIT learn during CTC (Cadre Training) Old way: Sir out of 100 recruits we had 7 not pass a PT test. Reply: Ok send them on their way or roll them back to day one for retraining. New way: Sir out of 100 recruits we had 7 not pass a PT Test. Reply: Sir or Mam or Sarge... WHY DID YOU FAIL YOUR SOLDIERS? Here is counseling statement, or this will look badly on your NCOER, or It is your job to make sure they are trained. Old way: You are on permanent profile and will be sent to a med board. New Way: you are on permanent profile which means you don't have do anything that everyone else has to do and still get paid the same. No pushups, pt on your own, walk at your pace. Old way: You failed 2 PT tests at an NCOA. You will be removed the Army. Or 2 HT/WT tests New Way : give them a third try, or another week, or have someone else grade or another HT/WT because we don't want to ruin their career Ask me how I know all this to be true? I work at one of the largest NCOA's in the US teaching SLC. I've seen it first hand. 100 - 300 a week. 20% are walkers, 25% of all I see have to be taped and the ones with the big giant fat rolls on their neck do better than the thinner ones. I've got tons of the nightmare stories about the condition of the Army over the last 1.5 years. Besides the social justice PC bullshit a lot of the other standards you mention were lowered or dropped altogether to make manning goals for the GWOT. The same shit happened during the Vietnam War, standards plummeted. Ever hear of Project 100,000? Jail or military service was still largely practiced. The ridiculously poorly written draft laws meant that anyone with any money or sense could relatively easily evade the draft. A time where there was an entire national counterculture designed to fight against it, where is was "cool" for young people to oppose the war. The only "good" times the US military ever had were doing the 80s when we got a ton of funding and no actual wars to fight. Those are Times of Plenty, and create unrealistic standards that are nearly impossible to achieve in any other time where the services aren't flooded with money, training resources, and no worries about attrition, deployments, staffing, or budget restraints. Its nice to be in a situation where you have the option of booting people who don't make standards because we had five other people fighting for that one position. But its not realistic to make believe it will always be that way. My FIL is a retired Marine and he was on the drill field during Project 100,00. You should hear the stories he tells about pounding fuck ups. My wife WIL not watch FMJ because she swears R. Lee Erhmy must have taken lessons from her Dad. |
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Not today, they are almost coddled. Not sure how the USMC is, but in know army was lax and air force was the one every1 said to go to if you didnt want to bust butt, they got hotel like accomodations. It could have got better or worse since i was in. Quoted:
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Fuck ups received generally effective counseling. Not today, they are almost coddled. Not sure how the USMC is, but in know army was lax and air force was the one every1 said to go to if you didnt want to bust butt, they got hotel like accomodations. It could have got better or worse since i was in. Our squadron had an old school training NCO that practiced old time methods if needed. Out of sight, no witnesses. The TI at the corrective custody flight carried a billy club. The motivation flight TI's probably used stealthy methods, they were all short fused and looking for an excuse. Their tiny female buck sergeant simply ran their asses off. |
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Sounds like my OSUT in 2004. Quoted:
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Even the difference between 1999 basic training and 2005 basic training is a night and day difference. (Army) In 1999 you had all male BCT platoons, drill sergeants that could swear, could strike you, and smoke your ass whenever they wanted to. By 2005 they had transitioned to mixed male/female platoons, couldn't swear, no physical contact and were limited to what they could say and do as corrective training. I went to BCT in 2001 during the transitional period and got to participate in both styles. Sounds like my OSUT in 2004. Try 1992 Infantry OSUT with a follow on Airborne assignment. Both of our Drill Sergeants were Ranger tabbed Panama Vets, IIRC. They were extremely pissed off they were not in a Ranger Battalion anymore and were cursed with babysitting. The Senior Drill Sergeant was a crazy fucker, hated everyone with a passion, took a very hands on approach to punishment and corrective training. |
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How much different was basic training back during Vietnam vs today? My father said the drill instructors back then did some crazy shit that they would never get away with today. I remember looking through a friend of mine's dad's Fort Benning yearbook from the early 1970's. The cover was just like my Fort Benning yearbook. The content looked just like what we did, only they had M1 steel helmets, M16A1s, OD Green Utility uniforms, and white T-shirts. It was like going through memory lane, only back in time 20 years. I went through Fort Benning Infantry OSUT in 1994, starting in January. That place probably has 50 years of institutional resistance to change so tightly woven into it. You could smell the sweat-filled stank of the helmets letting you know right off the bat that tradition was entrenched in that post. |
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My Drill Instructors in Basic in 1966 were all Korean War veterans and they were tough as nails and drove us hard and didn't take any crap or allowed any slack from us baby boomers..
Our 1Sgt was one of the few survivors of the Bataan Death March that stayed in the Army. Even though he was getting on in age and was ready for retirement he took personal charge of the after hours squad that needed a little extra help in passing the PT test. However, having said all that my son who was a Cav Scout during Iraq was put through some pretty hard training in OSUT. They never let up on them. |
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My FIL is a retired Marine and he was on the drill field during Project 100,00. You should hear the stories he tells about pounding fuck ups. My wife WIL not watch FMJ because she swears R. Lee Erhmy must have taken lessons from her Dad. Quoted:
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How much different was basic training back during Vietnam vs today? My father said the drill instructors back then did some crazy shit that they would never get away with today. In the last 18 years it has changed dramatically. So I can Imagine the differences in 40+ years. The old DS mentality was here are our standards. It is a privilege to be here and in order to be here you must do this. The new DS mentality is don't worry. If you can't make it I will carry you through. You have a right to be here. I'm not saying in general I'm saying this is what instructors at AIT learn during CTC (Cadre Training) Old way: Sir out of 100 recruits we had 7 not pass a PT test. Reply: Ok send them on their way or roll them back to day one for retraining. New way: Sir out of 100 recruits we had 7 not pass a PT Test. Reply: Sir or Mam or Sarge... WHY DID YOU FAIL YOUR SOLDIERS? Here is counseling statement, or this will look badly on your NCOER, or It is your job to make sure they are trained. Old way: You are on permanent profile and will be sent to a med board. New Way: you are on permanent profile which means you don't have do anything that everyone else has to do and still get paid the same. No pushups, pt on your own, walk at your pace. Old way: You failed 2 PT tests at an NCOA. You will be removed the Army. Or 2 HT/WT tests New Way : give them a third try, or another week, or have someone else grade or another HT/WT because we don't want to ruin their career Ask me how I know all this to be true? I work at one of the largest NCOA's in the US teaching SLC. I've seen it first hand. 100 - 300 a week. 20% are walkers, 25% of all I see have to be taped and the ones with the big giant fat rolls on their neck do better than the thinner ones. I've got tons of the nightmare stories about the condition of the Army over the last 1.5 years. Besides the social justice PC bullshit a lot of the other standards you mention were lowered or dropped altogether to make manning goals for the GWOT. The same shit happened during the Vietnam War, standards plummeted. Ever hear of Project 100,000? Jail or military service was still largely practiced. The ridiculously poorly written draft laws meant that anyone with any money or sense could relatively easily evade the draft. A time where there was an entire national counterculture designed to fight against it, where is was "cool" for young people to oppose the war. The only "good" times the US military ever had were doing the 80s when we got a ton of funding and no actual wars to fight. Those are Times of Plenty, and create unrealistic standards that are nearly impossible to achieve in any other time where the services aren't flooded with money, training resources, and no worries about attrition, deployments, staffing, or budget restraints. Its nice to be in a situation where you have the option of booting people who don't make standards because we had five other people fighting for that one position. But its not realistic to make believe it will always be that way. My FIL is a retired Marine and he was on the drill field during Project 100,00. You should hear the stories he tells about pounding fuck ups. My wife WIL not watch FMJ because she swears R. Lee Erhmy must have taken lessons from her Dad. My regimental Sergeant Major in the Marines could barely write, and this was in 2000. He was a Vietnam veteran, super super stupid, starring at him was like looking into the face of an exceptionally stupid cow. I believe in my heart he was project 100,000. Project 100,000, a program created by Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara, required each of the military services to accept a set percentage of their recruits from "Mental Group IV," men with very low scores on the standardized military entrance tests. Each service also had to accept a set percentage of men who could not meet the enlistment standards in effect before the program. These men were called New Standards Men.
Project 100,000 lasted from October 1966 to December 1971, bringing roughly 38,000 New Standards men into the Marine Corps. The Marine Corps vigorously objected to Project 100,000 on the grounds that this program forced recruiters to turn away better qualified volunteers. Many Marines blamed the massive racial and disciplinary problems which swept over the Marine Corps at the end of the Vietnam War on the low quality recruits which Project 100,000 had "forced" on the Marine Corps. Critics of Project 100,000 ignored the Marine Corps' previous experience with low score men. Even with Project 100,000, during the Vietnam era the Marine Corps received the best educated and highest scoring recruits it had ever received during a major war. New Standards men did not cause the Marine Corps' disciplinary problems. New Standards men were more likely to be formally punished for disciplinary infractions, but only to a small degree. The presence of New Standards men accounted for only a tiny part of a huge disciplinary problem. Nor did the presence of New Standards men hamper combat operations. They were more likely to require remedial instruction or to fail basic training, but this was a cost the Marine Corps would have almost certainly borne even without Project 100,000. Despite the Marine Corps' objections to its Project 100,000 quotas, the Vietnam War made it impossible for the Marine Corps to attract better qualified recruits. Project 100,000 had almost no real impact on the Marine Corps because the manpower problems created by the Vietnam War would have forced the Marine Corps to accept almost as many low score men anyway. |
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2010 sand hill:
All male. Drills swore and destroyed shit. I never saw anyone get hit but there were a lot of rifles and helmets thrown at faces. We got our phones during a 36hr pass after 9 weeks, and right after week graduated. Nowhere near as stressful or horrible everyone made it out to be. I think some of that had to do with all of the cadre being 3-4x deployed e6s and e7s on the back end of their drill stint, and getting burned out. The level of risk aversion has likely increased exponentially from the 60s, to the 90s, and especially post 2005. |
| When I went to basic, my neighbor, a Vietnam era guy wished me luck and hoped I had a better experience than him. He said his basic experience was 9 weeks of near race riot conditions. 3 AWOLs and 2 suicides. The other huge divide was between volunteers and draftees. |
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See, I went to OSUT as well. Apparently its way different. In 2007 it was much the same as the above 1999 BCT. Quoted:
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Even the difference between 1999 basic training and 2005 basic training is a night and day difference. (Army) In 1999 you had all male BCT platoons, drill sergeants that could swear, could strike you, and smoke your ass whenever they wanted to. By 2005 they had transitioned to mixed male/female platoons, couldn't swear, no physical contact and were limited to what they could say and do as corrective training. I went to BCT in 2001 during the transitional period and got to participate in both styles. Sounds like my OSUT in 2004. See, I went to OSUT as well. Apparently its way different. In 2007 it was much the same as the above 1999 BCT. 2009 on Sand Hill. Same shit here except we weren't beat. We had to beat ourselves. |