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Posted: 5/3/2003 7:02:28 AM EDT
Can anyone tell me about this round? I believe it is a 10mm case necked down to a jacketed .22 cal bullet. Ballistics? Availability?
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 7:24:27 AM EDT
.224 BOZ is a patented (?) round, and guns are hard (impossible?) to find for civilians. Check out [url]www.civil-defence.org[/url]. They make Glocks chambered in this for military/LE. A nice alternative I've recently discovered is the .223 Timbs. (I found out from Marty ter Weeme when I asked [i]him[/i] about the BOZ.) It's a 7.62x25 (7.62 Tokarev) round with a .30 cal sabot holding a .224 bullet. Pretty much the same ballistics as the .224 BOZ, and it can be used in an unmodified CZ-52 pistol ($150) ! Brass, sabots, bullets, and dies are available from MidwayUSA, and you can buy loaded ammo from places like [url]http://www.owlnet.com/quality/223%20Timbs.htm[/url] I just bought a CZ-52, but I haven't loaded ammo yet. I've just shot the S&B 7.62x25 stuff.
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 7:31:14 AM EDT
There is also a gunsmith that invented the .224 Zipperer (yes two er's on the end). It is a 9x23 case necked down to take the .223 bullets. If I remember correctly, it is within 100 fps of the .224 Boz. With a 5" barrel in a 1911 he had a 40 gr bullet traveling at 2200 fps. He has a very brief post here [url]http://talk.shooters.com/room_67/2821.cfm[/url] I would be interested if anyone knows of any other wildcats that are similar. The .223 Timbs sounds like a very cost effective alternative.
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 7:55:31 AM EDT
Is the .224 BOZ restricted, like FN's 5.7 cartridge is for LE and military use?
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 8:11:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Moondog: Is the .224 BOZ restricted, like FN's 5.7 cartridge is for LE and military use?
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I think that it a choice by the manufacturer. I know Civil Defence won't sell guns or ammo to lowly civilians. You could always have someone chamber a .224 barrel to take a cartridge dimensionally identical to the BOZ, have some custom dies made, and form your own brass. You could call .224 Whavever, and be fine.
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 8:50:50 AM EDT
Thanks for the info. I would love to have a BOZ barrel for my pistol.
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 1:00:43 PM EDT
You could always have someone chamber a .224 barrel to take a cartridge dimensionally identical to the BOZ, have some custom dies made, and form your own brass. You could call .224 Whavever, and be fine.
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I don't think that would be a good idea. I have heard that Civil Defense has the round patented and has threaten legal action on anyone that copies it. One could say change the angle of the shoulder or move it up/down and then be ok. I think taking an existing pistol case and necking it down would be best since it will still work with the mags. One could neck the 7.62x25 down to .224 and then have a barrel made up for a CZ-52. The end result would probably be very similar to the .224 Boz.
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 1:20:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 556SS109: I don't think that would be a good idea. I have heard that Civil Defense has the round patented and has threaten legal action on anyone that copies it. One could say change the angle of the shoulder or move it up/down and then be ok. I think taking an existing pistol case and necking it down would be best since it will still work with the mags. One could neck the 7.62x25 down to .224 and then have a barrel made up for a CZ-52. The end result would probably be very similar to the .224 Boz.
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Yeah, if you were really worried about that, you could change the shoulder 0.5 degrees. Otherwise, I don't think Civil Defence is going to even know that some guy is loading the round at home. Don't patents only affect items for resale and profit? You could rebarrel a CZ-52, but I think using the .223 Timbs is a lot easeier. Sure, the sabots add some expense, but this probably isn't a gun you're going to put a lot of rounds through.
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 1:52:17 PM EDT
I remember when the .224 BOZ first appeared in a gun rag, they had converted a Glock 20 and a HK MP5/10 to chamber the new round. I sure would like to get ahold of one of those converted HK's..........(Dreammmmm Onnnnn [:(] ) But I just picked up a CZ52 about a month ago and I'm going to play around with the .223 Timbs, the poor man's .224 BOZ [:D].
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 6:47:35 PM EDT
Fizassist, I had read that the entire case was "proprietary" and that nobody was allowed to copy that exact case. I agree that the company would most likely not sue an individual but why take the chance. There is a little more info here at the 10mm Talk site [url]http://home.earthlink.net/~gnappi/talk/10_talk30.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 9:48:45 PM EDT
I sent Barsto Machine, Jarvis Custom, and Redding emails about the .224 BOZ. I'll post back any responses. Meanwhile, here're pictures of a gun chambered for the .224 Zipperer and a link to a thread on pistolsmith.com where the maker talks a little more about it. [img]http://home.att.net/~wildbillcaldwell/zip224.jpg[/img] [img]http://home.att.net/~wildbillcaldwell/224ZIPSIDE.JPG[/img] [url=http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=6048&highlight=224+zipperer][size=4][b]CLICK D LINK[/b][/size=4][/url]
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 7:20:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2003 7:21:16 AM EDT by Jim_Dandy]
Here's the email I received from Redding in response to .224 BOZ dies: "Thank you for your interest in Redding Reloading Equipment. We can make the dies, but it will be an expensive proposition since we don't have any tooling, at least several hundred dollars. Check with the following firm. They may have made them already. 4-D Custom Die Co. 711 N. Sandusky Street P.O. Box 889 Mt. Vernon, OH 43050-0889 Phone: 740-397-7214 FAX: 740-397-6600 Regards, Patrick T. Ryan" And one from Jarvis Barrels: "sorry, we don't make one off barrels. jarvis,inc." No word yet from Barsto. Looks thus far that it could be done, provided you're willing to spend the money. I'm not.
Link Posted: 5/8/2003 8:15:48 AM EDT
Thanks for the update Jim! I found a few more links regarding projects similar to this. Check the thread at Glocktalk [url]http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=2698ad5ccb7b318b0a9960b21c582dd8&threadid=27162&perpage=25&highlight=224%20boz&pagenumber=1[/url] Leitner-Wise Rifle Company necked a 10mm case down to .30 and uses sabots [url]http://www.leitner-wise.com/products/82s.htm[/url] Finally Armco developed a round that "is a 10mm case necked down, firing a 110grain .308 varmint bullet at 1850fps from a 5" 1911". [img]http://www.armco-guns.com/images/Text%20Pics/30armco1.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 5:30:52 AM EDT
Didn't the KGB use something similar to this based on the 9x18 case? I think they used it in a small blow-back action pistol. Even with the smaller case, I believe that it could still punch through light armor.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 4:15:49 PM EDT
Finally received a reply from Barsto: "We do not do the 224 Boz. The company that owns it will not let us do them except for them. Thank you, Irv III"
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 4:21:31 PM EDT
Few things here. I hate to say this out loud, but Bar-Sto [b]WILL[/b] make you a .22 caliber barrel for your GLock 20. Just don't mention the Boz, and say it's for a "wildcat you are working on". They always seem to be in "heat treating at the moment", but my last quted price was about $300 all said and done. As far as a reamer, no big whup. There are a ton of people who cut custom wildcat reamers. Just send them the Boz dimensions (I have them floating around here somewhere) and get it done. YOu will need more than one reamer, since you will have to make a set of dies, and that is a whole other ball of wax. But let's just say that a 10MM necked to .22 using a Bar-Sto barrel has been done already by hobbyists.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 5:17:23 PM EDT
There's still the money factor. Figure on around $500 for a Glock 20, $200 to $300 (or more) for dies, $300 for your barrel, about $180 per reamer (that's what Clymer priced them out to me), and you're up to about $1400 or so. I could get a hell of a nice 1911 for that jack. Not for me.
Link Posted: 5/27/2003 7:41:30 PM EDT
Very neat stuff guys. Stupid question: What is the 9x23 like? I imagine quite a bit smaller than 45 acp... What would be uber cool is desert eagle with a 50 AE necked down to .22... Talking out of ass again.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 4:50:18 AM EDT
A little off topic, but all this necking-down reminds me of this .357/.44 hybrid Blackhawk an old co-worker used to have. It was a .44 mag necked down to .357. I never got to see it, so I don't know if it was just a big .357 with a .44 cylinder, or if the cylinder was specially made.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 5:30:09 AM EDT
What is the 9x23 like? I imagine quite a bit smaller than 45 acp...
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The 9x23mm is similar in dimension to the .38 Super. Maybe you're thinking of the 9x25mm Dillon which is the 10mm Auto necked to 9mm with a sharp shoulder. Used to be lots of talk about it in IPSC, but I haven't heard anyone mention it in years.
A little off topic, but all this necking-down reminds me of this .357/.44 hybrid Blackhawk an old co-worker used to have. It was a .44 mag necked down to .357. I never got to see it, so I don't know if it was just a big .357 with a .44 cylinder, or if the cylinder was specially made.
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That's the .357/.44 Bain & Davis. I think Hornady has load data listed for that.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 9:14:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy: The 9x23mm is similar in dimension to the .38 Super. Maybe you're thinking of the 9x25mm Dillon which is the 10mm Auto necked to 9mm with a sharp shoulder. Used to be lots of talk about it in IPSC, but I haven't heard anyone mention it in years.
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If I remember correctly, IPSC shooters stopped using it due to the recoil. I've heard reports that some hurt/damaged their elbows with it. I remember reading about one poster on HKpro some time ago, that owned a 1911 in .224 Boz. I belive it was built on a STI/SVI high-cap frame. So it can be done, it just depends if one feels its worth the cost and hazzle to get.
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