Posted: 2/20/2016 1:08:30 PM EDT
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Responsible person, meet state law.
Some states allow corporations, and even other trusts, to act as trustees on a trust. I present to you the most elegant of simple solutions: "The Undefined SBR Trust" is established. It is assigned an AR-15 lower. Beneficiaries are designated. The Trustee is listed as "The Undefined Trust". "The Undefined SBR Trust" files a form 1. The only responsible person for "The Undefined SBR Trust" is a legal entity. You can't photograph and fingerprint a legal entity. |
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Quoted: I may give it a try before 41F goes into effect. I still need to work out the details with my trust attorney. There are some state specific things to consider. Quoted: Quoted: let us know how that works out for you. I may give it a try before 41F goes into effect. I still need to work out the details with my trust attorney. There are some state specific things to consider.  Keep us posted! |
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Now THAT would be an elegant solution. With three layers of trusts you could transfer control without actually transferring anything. Trust A is Trustee on Trust B. Trust B is Trustee on Trust C. Trust C owns an NFA item. Trust A is removed as Trustee on Trust B. Trust Z is added as Trustee on Trust B. No change ever happens on Trust C. |
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And if that person were also a legal entity? Quoted:
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The ATF would require the photos and prints of the responsible persons of the legal entity serving as trustee of the trust filing the form. And if that person were also a legal entity? [Beowulf] great question! [Beowulf] Whether you have one layer of trusts or 1,000 layers, there will eventually be a person to be photographed and finger-printed. I like your spirit though, keep it up and you may be on to something. 
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It does raise the question of sales of Title 1 & Title 2 firearms.
Take a .38" revolver in the Saturday Night Special Trust. I take the Saturday Night Special Trust to a gunshow, and sell an additional Trusteeship to the Saturday Night Special Trust for $100. I hand the existing documents of the trust and the property of the trust to the new Trustee, who has complete control over the trust. I've added someone to the trust, but have I sold a firearm? Could the same thing happen w/ NFA items? I'm @ the gunshow w/ the SBR Trust, and sell an additional Trusteeship to the SBR Trust for $1000... |
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[Beowulf] great question! [Beowulf] Whether you have one layer of trusts or 1,000 layers, there will eventually be a person to be photographed and finger-printed. I like your spirit though, keep it up and you may be on to something. Quoted:
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The ATF would require the photos and prints of the responsible persons of the legal entity serving as trustee of the trust filing the form. And if that person were also a legal entity? [Beowulf] great question! [Beowulf] Whether you have one layer of trusts or 1,000 layers, there will eventually be a person to be photographed and finger-printed. I like your spirit though, keep it up and you may be on to something. Have you ever considered a headless trust? |
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It does raise the question of sales of Title 1 & Title 2 firearms. Take a .38" revolver in the Saturday Night Special Trust. I take the Saturday Night Special Trust to a gunshow, and sell an additional Trusteeship to the Saturday Night Special Trust for $100. I hand the existing documents of the trust and the property of the trust to the new Trustee, who has complete control over the trust. I've added someone to the trust, but have I sold a firearm? Could the same thing happen w/ NFA items? I'm @ the gunshow w/ the SBR Trust, and sell an additional Trusteeship to the SBR Trust for $1000... Pretty much. Generally speaking, trusts aren't bought and sold. Lets say you own a can in "Can 1, Inc." and you are the only responsible person for the entity. Lets you then sell your 100% interest in "Can 1, Inc." to Buyer. Buyer is the new responsible person without the need to file another Form 4 and pay the tax. If you were to do the same thing with a trust, Grantor would execute an amendment to trust adding a new trustee and removing the prior trustees. The problem here is that grantor would likely retain the right to amend and revoke the trust in the future. That might make any 'buyer' uncomfortable. Of course, grantor could probably include language in the trust at the time of the amendment surrendering any rights to amend or revoke and delegating those same rights to 'buyer.' |
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Have you ever considered a headless trust? Quoted:
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The ATF would require the photos and prints of the responsible persons of the legal entity serving as trustee of the trust filing the form. And if that person were also a legal entity? [Beowulf] great question! [Beowulf] Whether you have one layer of trusts or 1,000 layers, there will eventually be a person to be photographed and finger-printed. I like your spirit though, keep it up and you may be on to something. Have you ever considered a headless trust? I have not, but I drank with a headless Thompson gunner once, so there's that. |