[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 4473 question (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/30/2016 9:12:41 PM EDT
|
First off, let me say that I have my LTC/CHL and have for over 15 years. I went to purchase an AR lower to give to my son for his birthday coming up in late February. The dealer that I went to is a small dealer and I was upfront at the time of purchase that I was buying this as a gift for my son, who is also a LTC/CHL holder. I completed the form electronically, paid with my credit card, and then was told by this dealer that he could not complete the transaction because I had answered yes to question 11a Are you the actual buyer/transferee of the firearm listed on the form? Under the instructions for this question it clearly states that: You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party.
He refused to sell me the lower, and I left kind of stunned because I have purchased and given guns to both of my children in the past with no problems. That is when I went on the ATF site to get clarification. I understand that he was probably acting with an abundance of caution, or a lack of knowledge of this question. My question now is will his cancelling this transaction create an issue for me when I go to a different dealer to purchase the lower for my son' Birhday gift? |
|
No, it will have no effect on future purchases. As far as NICS is concerned, you changed YOUR mind in buying it. You dealer is a tard & I would never buy from him again, IMO. The 11a is if you were buying for someone whom is PREVENTED from buying legally themselves. Immediate family members ARE allowed to gift to each other.
Hell, Sarah Brady herself bought her son a 30-06 several years ago. 
|
|
Quoted:
No, it will have no effect on future purchases. As far as NICS is concerned, you changed YOUR mind in buying it. You dealer is a tard & I would never buy from him again, IMO. The 11a is if you were buying for someone whom is PREVENTED from buying legally themselves. Immediate family members ARE allowed to gift to each other. Hell, Sarah Brady herself bought her son a 30-06 several years ago. That last sentence is fucking rich. 
|
|
Quoted:
No, it will have no effect on future purchases. As far as NICS is concerned, you changed YOUR mind in buying it. You dealer is a tard & I would never buy from him again, IMO. The 11a is if you were buying for someone whom is PREVENTED from buying legally themselves. Immediate family members ARE allowed to gift to each other. Hell, Sarah Brady herself bought her son a 30-06 several years ago. Not true any more. It's a straw purchase anytime somebody other than the person filling out the form is the intended recipient of the gun, regardless of whether they can or can not pass a background check. Don't believe me? There was a U.S. Supreme Court case about this very question a year or so ago. But to address the OP's question, there will be no ramifications from your FFL's doucheness. Nobody knows. |
|
Quoted:
Not true any more. It's a straw purchase anytime somebody other than the person filling out the form is the intended recipient of the gun, regardless of whether they can or can not pass a background check. Don't believe me? There was a U.S. Supreme Court case about this very question a year or so ago. But to address the OP's question, there will be no ramifications from your FFL's doucheness. Nobody knows. Quoted:
Quoted:
No, it will have no effect on future purchases. As far as NICS is concerned, you changed YOUR mind in buying it. You dealer is a tard & I would never buy from him again, IMO. The 11a is if you were buying for someone whom is PREVENTED from buying legally themselves. Immediate family members ARE allowed to gift to each other. Hell, Sarah Brady herself bought her son a 30-06 several years ago. Not true any more. It's a straw purchase anytime somebody other than the person filling out the form is the intended recipient of the gun, regardless of whether they can or can not pass a background check. Don't believe me? There was a U.S. Supreme Court case about this very question a year or so ago. But to address the OP's question, there will be no ramifications from your FFL's doucheness. Nobody knows. IIRC, that case was a question of someone using an LEO discount (Glock Blue Label) and then consequently selling the gun to a non-LEO. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/06/19/scotus-upholds-atfs-straw-purchase-prohibition/ In the OP's case, the attempted purchase would not be a straw purchase. |
|
Quoted:
Not true any more. It's a straw purchase anytime somebody other than the person filling out the form is the intended recipient of the gun, regardless of whether they can or can not pass a background check. Don't believe me? There was a U.S. Supreme Court case about this very question a year or so ago. But to address the OP's question, there will be no ramifications from your FFL's doucheness. Nobody knows. Quoted:
Quoted:
No, it will have no effect on future purchases. As far as NICS is concerned, you changed YOUR mind in buying it. You dealer is a tard & I would never buy from him again, IMO. The 11a is if you were buying for someone whom is PREVENTED from buying legally themselves. Immediate family members ARE allowed to gift to each other. Hell, Sarah Brady herself bought her son a 30-06 several years ago. Not true any more. It's a straw purchase anytime somebody other than the person filling out the form is the intended recipient of the gun, regardless of whether they can or can not pass a background check. Don't believe me? There was a U.S. Supreme Court case about this very question a year or so ago. But to address the OP's question, there will be no ramifications from your FFL's doucheness. Nobody knows. IIRC that case was about a proxy purchase. It was very strained "logic" on the side of the majority and the opinion reads like a bad joke, but the dissent is spot on. A sends B a check so B can buy a gun for A. A cashes the check and buys the gun. A then sends the gun (NOT TO B) to B's FFL. Both A and B filled out 4473s for the same gun. B gets arrested for lying on his 4473 and convicted. It made no sense and was some SCOTUS judges being activists and going around Congress. Pretty much if your husband/wife/kid/anyone else wants a certain gun, you are totally fine gifting it to them with or without an FFL transfer as long as you both are following state and federal (mainly crossing state lines and prohibited persons) transfer laws. That very limited SCOTUS opinion means that whomever wanted the gun cannot give you money to buy it. This makes absolutely no sense. Wife wants a Glock 19 and you go and buy her one as a gift = legal if the you and your wife are residents of the same state and state law allows it. Wife wants a Glock 19 and gives you money to go buy her one, you buy it and then go back to the FFL to do a transfer from you to your wife = illegal 
|
|
Quoted:
IIRC, that case was a question of someone using an LEO discount (Glock Blue Label) and then consequently selling the gun to a non-LEO. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/06/19/scotus-upholds-atfs-straw-purchase-prohibition/ In the OP's case, the attempted purchase would not be a straw purchase. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No, it will have no effect on future purchases. As far as NICS is concerned, you changed YOUR mind in buying it. You dealer is a tard & I would never buy from him again, IMO. The 11a is if you were buying for someone whom is PREVENTED from buying legally themselves. Immediate family members ARE allowed to gift to each other. Hell, Sarah Brady herself bought her son a 30-06 several years ago. Not true any more. It's a straw purchase anytime somebody other than the person filling out the form is the intended recipient of the gun, regardless of whether they can or can not pass a background check. Don't believe me? There was a U.S. Supreme Court case about this very question a year or so ago. But to address the OP's question, there will be no ramifications from your FFL's doucheness. Nobody knows. IIRC, that case was a question of someone using an LEO discount (Glock Blue Label) and then consequently selling the gun to a non-LEO. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/06/19/scotus-upholds-atfs-straw-purchase-prohibition/ In the OP's case, the attempted purchase would not be a straw purchase. You're correct that the OP's purchase is not a straw because gifts are specifically excepted. But otherwise, the ATF's current interpretation is that a straw purchase does not require a prohibited person to receive the gun. Anytime (other than a gift) that the person filling out the form is not the "actual buyer" a straw purchase has occurred. People can say whatever they want about the Supreme Court case but the court affirmed the ATF's current standard. Quoted:
IIRC that case was about a proxy purchase. It was very strained "logic" on the side of the majority and the opinion reads like a bad joke, but the dissent is spot on. A sends B a check so B can buy a gun for A. A cashes the check and buys the gun. A then sends the gun (NOT TO B) to B's FFL. Both A and B filled out 4473s for the same gun. B gets arrested for lying on his 4473 and convicted. It made no sense and was some SCOTUS judges being activists and going around Congress. Be that as it may, the ATF won the day and the ATF now considers a straw to occur whenever the person filling out the form is not the "actual buyer." It matters not one bit to them whether the eventual recipient could pass a NICS check. Sorry, that's the world we live in today. |
|
Quoted:
IIRC that case was about a proxy purchase. It was very strained "logic" on the side of the majority and the opinion reads like a bad joke, but the dissent is spot on. A sends B a check so B can buy a gun for A. A cashes the check and buys the gun. A then sends the gun (NOT TO B) to B's FFL. Both A and B filled out 4473s for the same gun. B gets arrested for lying on his 4473 and convicted. It made no sense and was some SCOTUS judges being activists and going around Congress. Pretty much if your husband/wife/kid/anyone else wants a certain gun, you are totally fine gifting it to them with or without an FFL transfer as long as you both are following state and federal (mainly crossing state lines and prohibited persons) transfer laws. That very limited SCOTUS opinion means that whomever wanted the gun cannot give you money to buy it. This makes absolutely no sense. Wife wants a Glock 19 and you go and buy her one as a gift = legal if the you and your wife are residents of the same state and state law allows it. Wife wants a Glock 19 and gives you money to go buy her one, you buy it and then go back to the FFL to do a transfer from you to your wife = illegal Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No, it will have no effect on future purchases. As far as NICS is concerned, you changed YOUR mind in buying it. You dealer is a tard & I would never buy from him again, IMO. The 11a is if you were buying for someone whom is PREVENTED from buying legally themselves. Immediate family members ARE allowed to gift to each other. Hell, Sarah Brady herself bought her son a 30-06 several years ago. Not true any more. It's a straw purchase anytime somebody other than the person filling out the form is the intended recipient of the gun, regardless of whether they can or can not pass a background check. Don't believe me? There was a U.S. Supreme Court case about this very question a year or so ago. But to address the OP's question, there will be no ramifications from your FFL's doucheness. Nobody knows. IIRC that case was about a proxy purchase. It was very strained "logic" on the side of the majority and the opinion reads like a bad joke, but the dissent is spot on. A sends B a check so B can buy a gun for A. A cashes the check and buys the gun. A then sends the gun (NOT TO B) to B's FFL. Both A and B filled out 4473s for the same gun. B gets arrested for lying on his 4473 and convicted. It made no sense and was some SCOTUS judges being activists and going around Congress. Pretty much if your husband/wife/kid/anyone else wants a certain gun, you are totally fine gifting it to them with or without an FFL transfer as long as you both are following state and federal (mainly crossing state lines and prohibited persons) transfer laws. That very limited SCOTUS opinion means that whomever wanted the gun cannot give you money to buy it. This makes absolutely no sense. Wife wants a Glock 19 and you go and buy her one as a gift = legal if the you and your wife are residents of the same state and state law allows it. Wife wants a Glock 19 and gives you money to go buy her one, you buy it and then go back to the FFL to do a transfer from you to your wife = illegal You know, if that's the case you might as well just make a private sale to the person wanting the gun etc and forgo all the BS grey area nonsense being thrown about now. Strawman includes gifting to non-prohibited persons? That's just getting stupid, to the same stupidity as the law that says the cops can't work Xmas day (but they still do). |
|
Quoted:
Not true any more. It's a straw purchase anytime somebody other than the person filling out the form is the intended recipient of the gun, regardless of whether they can or can not pass a background check. Don't believe me? There was a U.S. Supreme Court case about this very question a year or so ago. But to address the OP's question, there will be no ramifications from your FFL's doucheness. Nobody knows. Quoted:
Quoted:
No, it will have no effect on future purchases. As far as NICS is concerned, you changed YOUR mind in buying it. You dealer is a tard & I would never buy from him again, IMO. The 11a is if you were buying for someone whom is PREVENTED from buying legally themselves. Immediate family members ARE allowed to gift to each other. Hell, Sarah Brady herself bought her son a 30-06 several years ago. Not true any more. It's a straw purchase anytime somebody other than the person filling out the form is the intended recipient of the gun, regardless of whether they can or can not pass a background check. Don't believe me? There was a U.S. Supreme Court case about this very question a year or so ago. But to address the OP's question, there will be no ramifications from your FFL's doucheness. Nobody knows. No, FAMILY members ARE allowed to gift immediate family members. |
|
Quoted:
Wife wants a Glock 19 and gives you money to go buy her one, you buy it and then go back to the FFL to do a transfer from you to your wife = illegal Uhm, no.
Doesn't matter who gives whom the money. A 4473 is ALL about the possession of the firearm, NOT the purchase. Totally legal for a friend to "buy" a gun for another friend, BUT the recipient in those sorts of transaction HAS to be the intended owner. Nor does a FFL do a "transfer between husband & wife" unless one or the other is in a separate state. |
|
Quoted:
No, FAMILY members ARE allowed to gift immediate family members. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No, it will have no effect on future purchases. As far as NICS is concerned, you changed YOUR mind in buying it. You dealer is a tard & I would never buy from him again, IMO. The 11a is if you were buying for someone whom is PREVENTED from buying legally themselves. Immediate family members ARE allowed to gift to each other. Hell, Sarah Brady herself bought her son a 30-06 several years ago. Not true any more. It's a straw purchase anytime somebody other than the person filling out the form is the intended recipient of the gun, regardless of whether they can or can not pass a background check. Don't believe me? There was a U.S. Supreme Court case about this very question a year or so ago. But to address the OP's question, there will be no ramifications from your FFL's doucheness. Nobody knows. No, FAMILY members ARE allowed to gift immediate family members. I was responding to the part where you referenced "someone who is prevented". The point is that the actual buyer doesn't have to be a prohibited person for a straw to take place. If somebody else is paying for the gun you buy and fill out a 4473 for, it's a straw purchase. BTW, if somebody else is paying for the gun, it's not a gift. |
|
Quoted:
I was responding to the part where you referenced "someone who is prevented". The point is that the actual buyer doesn't have to be a prohibited person for a straw to take place. If somebody else is paying for the gun you buy and fill out a 4473 for, it's a straw purchase. BTW, if somebody else is paying for the gun, it's not a gift. Doesn't make it an illegal purchase. For example, you fix your neighbors vehicle. He knows you're a gun guy & takes you to a gun shop. Then he says, "Pick one out costing less than $X & I'll pay for it." You then fill out the 4473 & he makes the payment. All perfectly legal & above board. |
|
Quoted:
Doesn't make it an illegal purchase. For example, you fix your neighbors vehicle. He knows you're a gun guy & takes you to a gun shop. Then he says, "Pick one out costing less than $X & I'll pay for it." You then fill out the 4473 & he makes the payment. All perfectly legal & above board. Quoted:
Quoted:
I was responding to the part where you referenced "someone who is prevented". The point is that the actual buyer doesn't have to be a prohibited person for a straw to take place. If somebody else is paying for the gun you buy and fill out a 4473 for, it's a straw purchase. BTW, if somebody else is paying for the gun, it's not a gift. Doesn't make it an illegal purchase. For example, you fix your neighbors vehicle. He knows you're a gun guy & takes you to a gun shop. Then he says, "Pick one out costing less than $X & I'll pay for it." You then fill out the 4473 & he makes the payment. All perfectly legal & above board. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about somebody filling out the paperwork for a gun that is intended for somebody else . . . in other words, the "actual buyer" is not the person who fills out the form. It is a straw purchase if your buddy asks you to purchase a gun and fill out the paperwork knowing full well that he (the buddy) is the actual recipient of the gun. Again, it doesn't matter whether the buddy (the "actual buyer") is prohibited or not. Just to clarify, the part you quoted in red was meant to say that the guy filling out the 4473 can't claim he's gifting a gun to somebody else if that somebody else is reimbursing him for the gun. |
| Regardless if it's a gift or not, at the time of purchase, you are the buyer/transferee. So the answer is yes. Don't blame the LGS because he is following protocol and could have his FFL pulled had he sold it regardless. Also, you should never purchase the gun before getting a "Proceed" from NICS. In your case, you legally cannot fill another 4473 out at that shop for 30 days because of your answer to 11a. If he had a policy for no refunds you would be screwed. If you were unsure about the answer to 11a, it has an explanation on the back of the paper form. |
|
Quoted:
Regardless if it's a gift or not, at the time of purchase, you are the buyer/transferee. So the answer is yes. Don't blame the LGS because he is following protocol and could have his FFL pulled had he sold it regardless. Also, you should never purchase the gun before getting a "Proceed" from NICS. In your case, you legally cannot fill another 4473 out at that shop for 30 days because of your answer to 11a. If he had a policy for no refunds you would be screwed. If you were unsure about the answer to 11a, it has an explanation on the back of the paper form. Can you cite a reference for this? |
|
Not true any more. It's a straw purchase anytime somebody other than the person filling out the form is the intended recipient of the gun, regardless of whether they can or can not pass a background check. Don't believe me? There was a U.S. Supreme Court case about this very question a year or so ago. Straw has NEVER had anything to do with eligibility to own the firearm, and has ALWAYS been about one individual buying a gun for someone else. A specific exemption to a straw purchase concerns buying as a legitimate gift, family member or not. |
|
Quoted:
God this I opened my mouth about how I was going to do a form 1 and SBR the 89K clone I picked up recently. Local shop now thinks Im a felon  Quoted:
Quoted:
Stop talking to your FFL. Buy what you want. Fill out the form. Pay the money. Keep your chatter down. God this I opened my mouth about how I was going to do a form 1 and SBR the 89K clone I picked up recently. Local shop now thinks Im a felon Most gun shop employees are dumber than a sack of rocks. A few are great. I'd rather not have my time wasted finding out which group the guy on the other side of the counter falls in. |
|
Quoted:
I think he checked the wrong box. What he did is allowable as ACTUAL BUYER. He assumed because he was gifting it that he was not the actual buyer. Quoted:
I think he checked the wrong box. What he did is allowable as ACTUAL BUYER. He assumed because he was gifting it that he was not the actual buyer. He checked yes which is the right box. FFL is wrong not the OP. Quoted:
Regardless if it's a gift or not, at the time of purchase, you are the buyer/transferee. So the answer is yes. Don't blame the LGS because he is following protocol and could have his FFL pulled had he sold it regardless. Also, you should never purchase the gun before getting a "Proceed" from NICS. In your case, you legally cannot fill another 4473 out at that shop for 30 days because of your answer to 11a. If he had a policy for no refunds you would be screwed. If you were unsure about the answer to 11a, it has an explanation on the back of the paper form.  He said he checked yes. What are you guys talking about??????????
|
|
buying a gift with your own money for someone that is legally able to own a firearm themselves = GTG
Using someone else's money to "buy a gift" for that person = straw purchase. It explains all this, in black and white, on the back of the 4473, as posted above. I don't understand why there is so much confusion on this issue. |
|
Quoted:
No, FAMILY members ARE allowed to gift immediate family members. ANYONE, not just "family members", can purchase a firearm from a licensed dealer and give it as a gift.......as long as the recipient is a resident of the same state and not otherwise prohibited. Stop spreading this "it's family" bullshit. |
|
Quoted:
Regardless if it's a gift or not, at the time of purchase, you are the buyer/transferee. So the answer is yes. Don't blame the LGS because he is following protocol and could have his FFL pulled had he sold it regardless. Also, you should never purchase the gun before getting a "Proceed" from NICS. In your case, you legally cannot fill another 4473 out at that shop for 30 days because of your answer to 11a. If he had a policy for no refunds you would be screwed. If you were unsure about the answer to 11a, it has an explanation on the back of the paper form. Quoted:
Regardless if it's a gift or not, at the time of purchase, you are the buyer/transferee. So the answer is yes. Don't blame the LGS because he is following protocol and could have his FFL pulled had he sold it regardless. Also, you should never purchase the gun before getting a "Proceed" from NICS. In your case, you legally cannot fill another 4473 out at that shop for 30 days because of your answer to 11a. If he had a policy for no refunds you would be screwed. If you were unsure about the answer to 11a, it has an explanation on the back of the paper form. He answered yes on 11a. The FFL is a moron. If you think answering yes on 11a in the OP's situation was a mistake, and that the FFL was right, you are most likely a moron as well. [/b]You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. [/b] https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download |
|
Quoted:
Uhm, no.
Doesn't matter who gives whom the money. A 4473 is ALL about the possession of the firearm, NOT the purchase. You have it completely backward.
Totally legal for a friend to "buy" a gun for another friend, BUT the recipient in those sorts of transaction HAS to be the intended owner. Totally never read a shred of ATF regs, much less the instructions on the 4473 have ya? Nor does a FFL do a "transfer between husband & wife" unless one or the other is in a separate state. He most certainly can do a transfer between husband and wife who live in the same state. Kinda pointless though. Quoted:
Quoted:
Wife wants a Glock 19 and gives you money to go buy her one, you buy it and then go back to the FFL to do a transfer from you to your wife = illegal Uhm, no.
Doesn't matter who gives whom the money. A 4473 is ALL about the possession of the firearm, NOT the purchase. You have it completely backward.
Totally legal for a friend to "buy" a gun for another friend, BUT the recipient in those sorts of transaction HAS to be the intended owner. Totally never read a shred of ATF regs, much less the instructions on the 4473 have ya? Nor does a FFL do a "transfer between husband & wife" unless one or the other is in a separate state. He most certainly can do a transfer between husband and wife who live in the same state. Kinda pointless though. You need to stop posting, because you are nowhere near accurate in your explanation of Federal law/ATF regulations. Read Question 11a on the 4473 and the instructions.........then you'll note how fucked up your advice is. |
|
Quoted:
God this I opened my mouth about how I was going to do a form 1 and SBR the 89K clone I picked up recently. Local shop now thinks Im a felon Quoted:
Quoted:
Stop talking to your FFL. Buy what you want. Fill out the form. Pay the money. Keep your chatter down. God this I opened my mouth about how I was going to do a form 1 and SBR the 89K clone I picked up recently. Local shop now thinks Im a felon hahaha oh man....
|
|
Quoted:
Uhm, no.
Doesn't matter who gives whom the money. A 4473 is ALL about the possession of the firearm, NOT the purchase. Totally legal for a friend to "buy" a gun for another friend, BUT the recipient in those sorts of transaction HAS to be the intended owner. Nor does a FFL do a "transfer between husband & wife" unless one or the other is in a separate state. Quoted:
Quoted:
Wife wants a Glock 19 and gives you money to go buy her one, you buy it and then go back to the FFL to do a transfer from you to your wife = illegal Uhm, no.
Doesn't matter who gives whom the money. A 4473 is ALL about the possession of the firearm, NOT the purchase. Totally legal for a friend to "buy" a gun for another friend, BUT the recipient in those sorts of transaction HAS to be the intended owner. Nor does a FFL do a "transfer between husband & wife" unless one or the other is in a separate state. The ATF disagrees with you. |
|
Quoted:
No, it will have no effect on future purchases. As far as NICS is concerned, you changed YOUR mind in buying it. You dealer is a tard & I would never buy from him again, IMO. The 11a is if you were buying for someone whom is PREVENTED from buying legally themselves. Immediate family members ARE allowed to gift to each other. Hell, Sarah Brady herself bought her son a 30-06 several years ago. For which she was erroneously lambasted by a number of publications as a straw-purchaser. (Obviously, as a bonafide gift for somebody who is not (known to be) a prohibited possessor/ resident of another state, her purchase was not unlawful and she did not lie on the 4473) |
|
Quoted: Best strategy. Even though gifting is legit, I'd just do my business and leave. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Keep your plans to yourself. Yep. Don't mention anything about selling it or giving it away. Best strategy. Even though gifting is legit, I'd just do my business and leave. |
|
You were the actual buyer of the firearm. You had no choice but to answer "YES". Purchasing a legitimate gift is an entirely acceptable transaction. This has been well established. You need to find a dealer who knows his job.
No, his refusal to complete the transaction will not haunt you. |