Posted: 4/14/2003 6:02:39 AM EDT
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With some of the discussions about the Baretta M9, I figured I'd throw out these bones to chew on. I found them on Hack's site (www.hackworth.com) http://www.hackworth.com/berretta.html http://www.sftt.org/dw07102002.html#1 |
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Good reads. The 9mm is two beasts. Ball ammo in an unreliable weapon in borderline manslaughter for the person who sends a warrior into battle with one. 9mm +p+ JHP in a reliable weapon (MY Glock 19) is a completely different story. I know of some 9mm 115gr FMJ that produces 1300 fps from a 4" bbl that fragments reliably. Perhaps this ammo would help? Of course, this doesn't fix a bad gun... |
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Quoted: i was always told only ball ammo is "LEGAL" in combat. Hollow point ammo was considered to cause excessive wounds and was banned under international law or some crap. just what i was told in basic. Have no idea if it is true or not. mike That's what I thought too, Mike. [url]communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-hague.html[/url] |
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In my CCW class the instructor said to NOT use FMJ in your carry weapon because you're still responsible for what that round does after it passes through the BG. I'll have to do some research on what is allowed in combat by convention. I think it says something like "ammunition that is designed to increase suffering" is banned, or some other such legalese. |
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I think the term is "ammunition that flattens easily in the human body." Here it is. [url]http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/dec99-03.htm[/url] And it is only binding if we are fighting someone who is part of the agreement. Iraq isn't Also check out the AR15 Ammo FAQs. They address this question as well. [url]http://www.ammo-oracle.com/#milhollow[/url] |
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Read the article. I have the experience of a RENEA major (Special Operation Police Teams of Albania, one of the busiest units against drug and firearms smuggling in the East europe). THey have a plenty of choice for sidearms, Browning, Sig P226, Beretta 92FS, Colt and so on. They have to stay out for several days in the mountains between Kosovo and Albania border in the mud, with freezing cold or heavy rain, without the chance of make some maintenance, and with the constant need to be ready to return fire. Albanian organized crime is fairly dangerous and aggressive (in Italy there where attempts of van robbery made by albanians using full auto AK...) The sidearm of choice is Beretta, the most reliable. I had also Govt. issued handgun in operative duty and as private citizien I fired about 1000 round. Almost all the Italian collectors have or had at least one Beretta 92FS, and NEVER NOTICED no one of the malfunctionements reported. Observation about size and trigger reachability are the only remarks that I feel I can share. The rest are BS... |
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Quoted: Good reads. The 9mm is two beasts. Ball ammo in an unreliable weapon in borderline manslaughter for the person who sends a warrior into battle with one. 9mm +p+ JHP in a reliable weapon (MY Glock 19) is a completely different story. I know of some 9mm 115gr FMJ that produces 1300 fps from a 4" bbl that fragments reliably. Perhaps this ammo would help? Of course, this doesn't fix a bad gun... Ummm... the M9 can eat pretty much ANY type of ammo all day long. I own a 92FS, and I have never had an issue. An "unreliable" weapon?? I have had mine covered in sand when I went shooting in AZ. I was out there all day, 800+ rounds, blowing sand, no failures! I live in WI, and shoot in the blowing snow in January with no problems! The 92FS is rated for +P+ ammo, and will feed both JHP and FMJ reliably. I know, since I shoot +P+ and standard Winchester 115 grain. If I belived everything I read on the internet, Glocks KABOOM, melt in the sun, are invisible to metal detectors, and all models fire underwater. Do some research next time. Av. |
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The first one sounds like a trash-fest for all non-Glock pistols. I don't know much about the Smith or Sig, but his bashing of the Beretta seems excessive. The Berretta was a story unto itself. On a daily basis we would lose a recoil lug. We would regularly have blown chambers (invariably blamed on bad ammunition, which surprisingly never happened to any of the others). Trigger springs broke often and we lost quite a few takedown lever studs and springs. This little beauty would fly out, never to be found, and on the next round fired, the takedown lever would fall down and the entire top-side would be launched down range. Imagine trying to build confidence in a new shooter when the top half of their weapon is sticking out of the ground like a grave marker? Another major weakness were the magazines. The spring is under such great compression and the butt plate is held on with a very weak detent and when combined it would routinely launch it's contents onto the ground. Much like the rookie holding the now defunct weapon did with his lunch during a high stress exercise. Just ask The_Beer_Slayer about how Glocks never blow up. What's a "recoil lug", anyways? Perhaps he means the locking block. If he's such an expert, shouldn't he know the correct names of the parts? Trigger springs and locking blocks are wear parts which are supposed to be replaced periodically to avoid failures. Does their gunsmith not know about this? Maybe it's the same gunsmith that taught him to call it a "recoil lug". I have to call BS on that "takedown lever stud" thing, assuming he is referring to the Disassembling Latch Release Button. I have never heard of this part breaking, and I don't see how it could possibly break, since there is almost no stress on it under any conditions. In addition, I took my Beretta and removed the aforementioned release button and reassembled it without it. I then cycled it several times and dropped the slide with the slide release. Just as I thought, the disassembly latch never budged and the slide stayed firmly in place. The disassembly latch is held in place by the force of the recoil spring, and there's no reason why it should spontaneously rotate even without the release button. I also have never heard of the mag baseplates coming off of any kind of gun. The detent on the factory mags are pretty big, and it doesn't make much sense to say that higher spring pressure would tend to make the baseplates come off - the direction of the spring force actually acts to hold the baseplates on. The Berretta is actually quite easy to strip, maybe too easy. In recent years the slide has been removed from Officer's handguns by suspects who have trained in this little trick. It does work and no you won't get a shot off before he has your slide. Another of the many annoyances of the Berretta are it's sharp edges. We kept a box of bandages handy for the unfortunates who were routinely bitten. This smells funny to me too. That slide removal thing sounds like a stupid hollywood trick. Does anyone have news articles or other official accounts of this actually happening? Yeah, maybe if a BG is real close and has the drop on you, and has good training, he might be able to get the slide. Of course if he has all of those advantages, he could just grab the whole gun instead, and then he would have a gun to shoot the officer with instead of a useless slide. If you don't want this sort of thing happening, don't let BGs get that close to you when you have your gun drawn. How many criminals have any training anyways? I'd be surprised if they could field-strip their own guns, much less someone else's gun. I do agree that 9mm ball is a poor choice in battle. If we have to use ball, then we should be using 45acp. Or is it about time we dumped this "humane warfare" crap and started using modern JHP? |
| the best part is all the relitivly inexpensive hi capacity mags out there.even the much hated usa mags work flawlessly in my FS as do my mcgars,FACTORY AND EVEN NO NAME MAGS WORK .ITS JUST A GREAT GUN PERIOD.LONG TRIGER REACH ,GOOD GOD MOST OF THAT IS JUST TAKE UP.BIG DEAL.ID ware my beretta on my tool belt as a nail driver if A)i was a carpenter and B)it was o k with the boss! ha ha ha |
| We only use ball ammunition in combat b/c of the Hague convention. We did not agree on everything in it so we did not sign on to it, but we still abide by its rules. It only applies to armed conflict though, which means we can use hollow points for instance against drug cartels in Columbia. The reason is b/c they say anything other than a FMJ causes unecessary suffering. |
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Quoted: The Berretta is actually quite easy to strip, maybe too easy. In recent years the slide has been removed from Officer's handguns by suspects who have trained in this little trick. It does work and no you won't get a shot off before he has your slide. Another of the many annoyances of the Berretta are it's sharp edges. We kept a box of bandages handy for the unfortunates who were routinely bitten. This smells funny to me too. That slide removal thing sounds like a stupid hollywood trick. Does anyone have news articles or other official accounts of this actually happening? Yeah, maybe if a BG is real close and has the drop on you, and has good training, he might be able to get the slide. Of course if he has all of those advantages, he could just grab the whole gun instead, and then he would have a gun to shoot the officer with instead of a useless slide. If you don't want this sort of thing happening, don't let BGs get that close to you when you have your gun drawn. How many criminals have any training anyways? I'd be surprised if they could field-strip their own guns, much less someone else's gun. This is a reality, although it probably isn't THAT common among your average gangbanging criminal. I attended a class where the instructor demonstrated this for the students (Robert Stasch of Chicago PD). But, he also demonstrated it with SIGs and a few other weapons and he also showed some disabling moves for other autos that gang members train in, though none of the others were quite as easy as a Beretta. He also backed the lecture with tapes of prisoners and gang members practicing weapon take-aways and disabling moves. The Beretta concerns supposedly originated out in LA, where the PD and SO both carry Berettas. It was enough of an issue that there is a retrofit for early-model 92s that makes it harder to take apart. Again, this has only been observed with the hard-core "professional" type gangsters; these are the same folks who buy retention holsters so they can practice taking officers' weapons away. Not the kind you will encounter very often. I do agree that it is unlikely, and I have no major problems with the Beretta, though I prefer other autos myself. |