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AR15.COM
4/9/2003 7:15:59 AM EDT
saw on foxnews some gi's put the head of a saddam statue in the back of a humvee to be later placed in some war trophy museum.  the reporter mentioned something like the 101st or 107th had sucha type of museum.  interesting that our military has something like that.

anyway, what is allowable as a war trophy vs stealing? there's probably a difference between taking a captured flag and a gold faucet from saddam's palace. i'm sure bringback weapons are a thing of the past.
4/9/2003 7:18:58 AM EDT
[#1]
If they don't find it on me, it's a war trophy.

Sgtar15
4/9/2003 7:27:35 AM EDT
[#2]
"To The Victors Go The Spoils"[^]
4/9/2003 7:31:03 AM EDT
[#3]
When in doubt, bring a claw hammer and a cat's paw to remove the nails.

That way it ain't nailed down.
(If it ain't nailed down...............it's mine.)
4/9/2003 7:31:31 AM EDT
[#4]
If you bring it back for your personal gain, it's more likely to be viewed as stealing. If it is brought back for public display/education/memorial, it's more likely to be viewed as a war trophy.
Personally, I don't have a problem with our G.I.'s taking trinkets/property that belonged to the enemy armed forces or that was the personal property of the enemy leadership. It's a problem when they start taking the property of "non-combatants".
4/9/2003 8:25:17 AM EDT
[#5]


There is pretty much nothing cooler on earth than war trophies.


My grandpa fought in WW2 and took back a japaneese pistol, some heavy rifle, a silk japaneese flag, and the gunsight off of a fighter plane.

I will treasure that stuff till the day I die, then my kid will treasure it.


4/9/2003 8:29:16 AM EDT
[#6]
FNC's legal puppet said that anything taken has to be sign off by the company CO and in turn had to be signed off by the CO of the war.  He further stated that if it wasn't munition, the offense would probably be looked over.
4/9/2003 8:32:55 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Personally, I don't have a problem with our G.I.'s taking trinkets/property that belonged to the enemy armed forces or that was the personal property of the enemy leadership. It's a problem when they start taking the property of "non-combatants".
View Quote


That's exactly what I feel as well.  
4/9/2003 8:41:19 AM EDT
[#8]
Don't forget the famous words of the late great president Harry S. Truman:

The Germans fought for the kaiser, the British fought for the King, and the Americans fought for souveneirs.
4/9/2003 8:55:01 AM EDT
[#9]
Let's say you're in combat, and you're searching a dead enemy for documents.  You find his wallet.  It's full of foreign currency, letters to/ from his family, and pictures of his family.  He also has a very nice wedding ring and watch with something engraved on the back.  Would it be right to take these as souvenirs, or should his personal effects be left to be sent to his family?  How would this be different if it happened to a US soldier?  
4/9/2003 8:58:58 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Let's say you're in combat, and you're searching a dead enemy for documents.  You find his wallet.  It's full of foreign currency, letters to/ from his family, and pictures of his family.  He also has a very nice wedding ring and watch with something engraved on the back.  Would it be right to take these as souvenirs, or should his personal effects be left to be sent to his family?  How would this be different if it happened to a US soldier?  
View Quote


What if this "enemy" was shooting at you five minutes before this happened?
4/9/2003 9:17:59 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Let's say you're in combat, and you're searching a dead enemy for documents.  You find his wallet.  It's full of foreign currency, letters to/ from his family, and pictures of his family.  He also has a very nice wedding ring and watch with something engraved on the back.  Would it be right to take these as souvenirs, or should his personal effects be left to be sent to his family?  How would this be different if it happened to a US soldier?  
View Quote


All your personal effects are belong to me! [:D]
4/9/2003 9:28:23 AM EDT
[#12]
I think that it's wrong and unprofessional to take things from the body of an Iraqi, be they dead or alive.
But Saddam posters, paintings, and statue pieces are all fair game.

After the first war, the US filled SEVERAL cargo ships with pristine Iraqi military equipment, to be used as decorations for US Military bases.
That's why National Guard headquaters all have sand colored T-72s, and Russian arty pieces parked out front.
4/9/2003 9:45:31 AM EDT
[#13]
No personal trophies are allowed anymore. I think its absolutely stupid that they treat uniform or equipment items as forbidden. I think that any trophies up to and including small arms should be fair game.
4/9/2003 9:50:31 AM EDT
[#14]
I think that it's wrong and unprofessional to take things from the body of an Iraqi, be they dead or alive
View Quote


Fuck em. You shoot at me, I kill you and take your shit.. End of story.

CH
"If you get killed, we are splitting up your gear!"
4/9/2003 9:55:13 AM EDT
[#15]
I'm against taking personal effects, but any other militaria is fair game.  I think as Americans we are held to a higher standard than the rest of the world, and that's a compliment to our professional fighting force.
4/9/2003 10:00:28 AM EDT
[#16]
I think it boils down to R A N K..[rolleyes] as to what is an "allowable" "War Trophy" today....
4/9/2003 10:11:17 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
I think that it's wrong and unprofessional to take things from the body of an Iraqi, be they dead or alive
View Quote


Fuck em. You shoot at me, I kill you and take your shit.. End of story.

View Quote


Actually no, not the end of the story.

The end of the story comes when your men are killed because of a booby trapped "trophy", or because they stopped thinking tactically, and stopped focussing on the mission at hand, because they desired "trophies".
Trophy hunters lack discipline, and put the mission and their fellow Marines/Soldiers at risk.

4/9/2003 10:26:33 AM EDT
[#18]
Property of the defeated regime (weapons, pieces of uniform (beret, pistol holster, etc), statues, a wall hanging of the 'great leader', ammo, mags, etc): War Trophies

Personal propery of enemy civillians and soldiers (money, photos of family, letters, ANY civillian property): Stealing
4/9/2003 10:27:29 AM EDT
[#19]
Nine lootin', one shootin'.

Standard operating procedure.
4/9/2003 10:32:19 AM EDT
[#20]
All Your Gold Faucets Are Belong To Me[;D]
4/9/2003 10:39:06 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Don't forget the famous words of the late great president Harry S. Truman:

The Germans fought for the kaiser, the British fought for the King, and the Americans fought for souveneirs.
View Quote


No shit, did he really say that?? (now's your chance..[:D])
4/9/2003 10:39:23 AM EDT
[#22]
They earned it.  Let them take it from the combatants.  
4/9/2003 10:54:32 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
They earned it.  Let them take it from the combatants.  
View Quote


It's an insult to suggest that our soldiers and marines have now somehow "earned" the right to become thieves, or to appear as common looters.
It belittles the reasons why we fought.

Trophy hunters get men killed.
Trophy hunters are undisciplined.
Period.



4/9/2003 11:13:01 AM EDT
[#24]
Lieutenant Shortround says, "Okay, Mother, where'd you souvenir the chow?"
Animal Mother spits.  He grins, baring rotten teeth.  "I stole it."
"You stole it, sir."
"Yeah, I stole it...sir."
"That's looting.  They shoot people for that."
"I stole it from the Army...sir."
"Outstanding.  It is part of your duty as a Marine to harass our sister services.  Carry on."
4/9/2003 11:25:27 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Personally, I don't have a problem with our G.I.'s taking trinkets/property that belonged to the enemy armed forces or that was the personal property of the enemy leadership. It's a problem when they start taking the property of "non-combatants".
View Quote


That's exactly what I feel as well.  
View Quote


Me too.  If it is a symbol of the Saddam regime, then it is a souvenir.  If it has significant monetary value, then it belongs to the Iraqi people and should be used to rebuild their country.  Personally,  I would love to have that beret from the Minister of Propoganda.
4/9/2003 11:30:45 AM EDT
[#26]
When I ETS'd, they searched my stuff, found a rifle cleaning kit (let me keep it) so it is not a big problem, trust me. The only ones who can get the good things are the upper ranks.
4/9/2003 11:42:55 AM EDT
[#27]
Trophy hunters get men killed.
Trophy hunters are undisciplined.
Period.
View Quote


Cincinnatus, you read to much Stephen Hunter!! LOL.

Whatever... pretty funny though.
CH
4/9/2003 11:43:39 AM EDT
[#28]
THAT is true.
Officers are given TONS of leeway in terms of turning in gear.

BUT, battlefield looting leads to battlefield deaths.
This is a fact.
It's a fact that ruins any cool fantasies about stealing neato Iraqi sidearms, and funny hats, but it is a fact.
Looting is unprofessional, and is a symptom of poor discipline.

In Vietnam, the North capitalized on Americans' desire for trophies, and a lot of guys came home in boxes, or without arms because of it.
4/9/2003 11:47:29 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Trophy hunters get men killed.
Trophy hunters are undisciplined.
Period.
View Quote


Cincinnatus, you read to much Stephen Hunter!! LOL.

Whatever... pretty funny though.
CH
View Quote


No, never heard of him.
I think many of you just don't understand, because you're thinking of war in terms of fantasy and day dreams.

Men who are thinking about trophies, and not the mission at hand, get other men killed.


Question:

1) Has trophy looting ever caused deaths of friendlies on the battlefield?

2) Has it ever helped to accomplish a mission?



4/9/2003 11:49:31 AM EDT
[#30]
Cincinnatus,
BTW, there is ALLOT of truth to what your saying about traps and such. It is somthing that wont ever be stopped.

Added......
Yep people that put trophy hunting infront of the safety of others, will and do get people killed.

CH
4/9/2003 11:53:46 AM EDT
[#31]
That is why trophy hunting is not allowed.
The cure for it is discipline.

Think about it.
Who is most likely to engage in trophy hunting?
Delta, SEAL, Force Recon....

....or a less "elite" line soldier?

Why?
4/9/2003 11:58:35 AM EDT
[#32]
Not even Officers are alowed to bring home weapons as "War Trophies", I know for a fact that a LTC went to jail over a pair of AKs that followed him home from the Gulf War. He was from the 101st to, not some scrub reserve unit.
4/9/2003 12:02:20 PM EDT
[#33]
I have not served in the "elite". If you have, great. But they, like any solder, brings their fare share of "things" home. in some cases more.

I'm done.
CH
"If you get killed we are splitting up your gear(and trophys)!"
4/9/2003 12:20:20 PM EDT
[#34]
They let us bring anything back after the war, along as is wasn't a firearm. I brought back a duffel bag full of stuff, everything from a Ak Bayonet to propaganda posters and books. The best I got to bring home was a Iraqi flag, I got at Rumaylah Oilfield. Wish I could have brought some of them AK's and pistols back.
4/9/2003 9:27:48 PM EDT
[#35]
I Brought back from the Gulf War 1, a Iraqi Officers map case, holster, beret, and a Iraq battle(thats a laugh) flag, and after the war there was more Iraqi armed vehicles tanks, bmps, ect, in front of all the Regimently Hqs at Camp Lejeune on display then in Iraq.
But I never saw any Marine take any thing that wasnt a military in nature.
They did search our gear for AKs and pistols, but if it wasnt a weapon they let everyone keep them, including camal crossing signs..lol dont ask me why but alot of my Marines took those.
4/9/2003 9:37:33 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
...have now somehow "earned" the right to become thieves...
View Quote



You can't theive from the dead.

I mean, what the hell are they going to use their Shemagh for now??