[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Beginning programming question (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/3/2015 10:45:53 AM EDT
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When I was a kid (I'm 45) I learned BASIC programming on Atari computers. I could do some useful things and some useless / gimmicky things, but never really took it very far. Touched a little on C++ but I totally forget it. Now my son is 10 and I'd like to at least expose him to a programming language. He's pretty creative. Should we look at programming for Flash or Java or something else? I'd like to see if we can learn a little together and make a rudimentary game. Yes, the Candy Crush sale got me thinking along these lines. But it'll also be something fun we can learn and do together over the winter. Any advice appreciated. |
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Get him one of these.
It's programmed in C++, and he can make it do practical things. There are plug-in accessories called "shields" that interface with the real world. Ten year old kids are playing with them. |
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Java, C# or C++ those are the bread and butter right now. These. For non-programmer statisticians, R is also very popular, but is an abomination to be avoided if at all possible. One of my goals at work for this fiscal year is re-familiarization with C++. After trying some different tutorial sites, I'm using http://www.learncpp.com/cpp-tutorial The benefits to learning C++ over Java and C# is that you learn some of the underlying Computer Science concepts about how memory is used and manipulated. The disadvantage to C++ compared to Java and C# is that you have to learn some of the underlying Computer Science concepts about how memory is used and manipulated. I use Netbeans, which is a free IDE (integrated development environment) for everything. But there are others out there too. |
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Some of you have apparently missed that this is for a 10 year old... I was programming in basic when I was 6. My buddy's 10 year old daughter has written sketches for Arduino. Children are smarter than you think. Limiting them to "age appropriate" materials is horrible. Guarantee if you give the kid an Arduino and some motivation (look at this crazy blinky light) they WILL figure it out. Trust me. I learned computers this way. My parents never said "oh he's only 10, he's not allowed to solder, program, or build things" |
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My vote aside from never have heard of Scratch. Python is a pretty good "My first programming language". Quoted:
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A Raspberry Pi might be fun... for both of you. Start out with Scratch and then maybe move to Python eventually. My vote aside from never have heard of Scratch. Python is a pretty good "My first programming language". I've made a career of Python. It's a excellent first language, but it's versatile enough that it can be used anywhere. |
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Quoted: So something like AS3 is not a good idea? Why? I know/write in many programming languages and I have never touched it. Why not a very common, multi-platform language that has tons of community support? Hell, I still haven't got off my ass to be any good with C and I would recommend that over AS3. Picking C, Python, or even Java (  ) would be much more useful/practical, with answers to your questions found much easier. Since you created this thread, I am guessing you will likely need some help along the way. |
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Quoted: I've made a career of Python. It's a excellent first language, but it's versatile enough that it can be used anywhere. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A Raspberry Pi might be fun... for both of you. Start out with Scratch and then maybe move to Python eventually. My vote aside from never have heard of Scratch. Python is a pretty good "My first programming language". I've made a career of Python. It's a excellent first language, but it's versatile enough that it can be used anywhere. I dont code for a living. However, Python is to me as a hammer and saw are to a carpenter. After first learning it, I felt kinda like this...  |
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I took an into to java class in college. It singularly saved me from a mountain of shit when I had to learn Matlab in grad school. I'd think java or c++ would be a good starting point. The very basic stuff isn't too hard. All you need to do is get him interested enough to pursue it on his own. |
| Here is the same Arduino kit with an LCD readout so text/data can be read out. |
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I was programming in basic when I was 6. My buddy's 10 year old daughter has written sketches for Arduino. Children are smarter than you think. Limiting them to "age appropriate" materials is horrible. Guarantee if you give the kid an Arduino and some motivation (look at this crazy blinky light) they WILL figure it out. Trust me. I learned computers this way. My parents never said "oh he's only 10, he's not allowed to solder, program, or build things" Quoted:
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Some of you have apparently missed that this is for a 10 year old... I was programming in basic when I was 6. My buddy's 10 year old daughter has written sketches for Arduino. Children are smarter than you think. Limiting them to "age appropriate" materials is horrible. Guarantee if you give the kid an Arduino and some motivation (look at this crazy blinky light) they WILL figure it out. Trust me. I learned computers this way. My parents never said "oh he's only 10, he's not allowed to solder, program, or build things" Then you misunderstood me. |
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With a Pi2 (could have easily done it with an Arduino) I made a bluetooth gate opener that auto senses my cell phone. Automatically opens/closes my gate based on my phone being near. Took about 75 lines of python.
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and make a rudimentary game. You should look at Scratch All the kids (aged 8 - 12) in my kid's school love it. There's also ALICE, if it's still around. We don't know this kid, but to me, dropping a 10 year old into fucking C++ or Java is going to be discouraging and provide no real output for a loooong time. When I was a kid BASIC on the C64 was hard enough. Scratch provides immediate, visual output, and also teaches building blocks that not only help the kid think like a programmer, but also develops a manner of thinking in general that will be useful later in life. I think it was Steve Jobs who said that everyone should learn to program; not because everyone should become a software developer, but rather because it teaches you to think in a certain structured way. |
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Quoted: My vote aside from never have heard of Scratch. Python is a pretty good "My first programming language". Quoted: Quoted: A Raspberry Pi might be fun... for both of you. Start out with Scratch and then maybe move to Python eventually. My vote aside from never have heard of Scratch. Python is a pretty good "My first programming language". Scratch is a drag 'n' drop programming... well, not sure if "language" is the right word, so let's say "system". Seems to be quite popular in schools. In fact, as I type, my daughter is at an afterschool "coding club" where they use Scratch. She's actually taken what she's learned through Scratch and started using it as a basis to tackle Python. |
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Quoted: Scratch is a drag 'n' drop programming... well, not sure if "language" is the right word, so let's say "system". Seems to be quite popular in schools. In fact, as I type, my daughter is at an afterschool "coding club" where they use Scratch. She's actually taken what she's learned through Scratch and started using it as a basis to tackle Python. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A Raspberry Pi might be fun... for both of you. Start out with Scratch and then maybe move to Python eventually. My vote aside from never have heard of Scratch. Python is a pretty good "My first programming language". Scratch is a drag 'n' drop programming... well, not sure if "language" is the right word, so let's say "system". Seems to be quite popular in schools. In fact, as I type, my daughter is at an afterschool "coding club" where they use Scratch. She's actually taken what she's learned through Scratch and started using it as a basis to tackle Python. I just googled it and played with some examples, and looked at the "code". Pretty neat stuff and looks like a solid stepping stone to learn programming logic. |
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kids need feed back too. https://codecombat.com/ teaches you to code by coding a player in a game. Interesting. Just signed up for Code Combat, I think my kid will like it. |
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You might also look in to something like CodeCombat
-Muppetlord ETA: I'm too late. |
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Get him one of these. It's programmed in C++, and he can make it do practical things. There are plug-in accessories called "shields" that interface with the real world. Ten year old kids are playing with them. You know, I need to get something like that. I'm a Linux sysadmin, but I don't really know any programming languages. Like OP, I learned Basic, but on an Apple IIe. Long since forgotten it. I do some BASH scripting and did start in on some Python. I use a home automation system at home. I could rig up a little arduino board to indicate thing like whether or not my garage door is open. |
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For a 10 year old, I like the idea of getting him a Raspberry Pi and some Python books. That sounds about right for a typical coder. Cant do algebra, but tries to crank out code. For a ten year old, let him help you with some electronics projects. Show him that it can be fun FIRST. Dont try throwing him into code yet. |
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Quoted: You know, I need to get something like that. I'm a Linux sysadmin, but I don't really know any programming languages. Like OP, I learned Basic, but on an Apple IIe. Long since forgotten it. I do some BASH scripting and did start in on some Python. I use a home automation system at home. I could rig up a little arduino board to indicate thing like whether or not my garage door is open. Quoted: Quoted: Get him one of these. It's programmed in C++, and he can make it do practical things. There are plug-in accessories called "shields" that interface with the real world. Ten year old kids are playing with them. You know, I need to get something like that. I'm a Linux sysadmin, but I don't really know any programming languages. Like OP, I learned Basic, but on an Apple IIe. Long since forgotten it. I do some BASH scripting and did start in on some Python. I use a home automation system at home. I could rig up a little arduino board to indicate thing like whether or not my garage door is open. Do it. It took me a couple hours (and few Amazon orders) to make my bluetooth gate opener. Fun all around. Programming, prototyping, soldering. ETA: I read a blog where a guy rigged up a Pi to a garage opener. He added a camera to the Pi and put some sheets of paper on his door. Depending on if it was open or not, the resulting image would be different. Therefore he could determine if the door was open or not based on a "hash" of the camera feed. |
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Where did that come from? Quoted:
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That sounds about right for a typical coder. Cant do algebra, but tries to crank out code. Where did that come from? Suggesting Python for a 10 year old, someone that most likely hasnt even mastered algebra yet, is a terrible suggestion. However, it would be par for the course in that many coders have terrible math skills. It was a joke. It wasnt directed at you. Foghornleghorn.jpg |
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Quoted: Suggesting Python for a 10 year old, someone that most likely hasnt even mastered algebra yet, is a terrible suggestion. However, it would be par for the course in that many coders have terrible math skills. It was a joke. It wasnt directed at you. Foghornleghorn.jpg Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That sounds about right for a typical coder. Cant do algebra, but tries to crank out code. Where did that come from? Suggesting Python for a 10 year old, someone that most likely hasnt even mastered algebra yet, is a terrible suggestion. However, it would be par for the course in that many coders have terrible math skills. It was a joke. It wasnt directed at you. Foghornleghorn.jpg I'd wager that Python is a better place to start than BASIC on a IIe, like I did at 10yo. |
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I recommend a robot kit like the parallax. You build the kit, then write SW for it. The kits come with all the SW tools. Programming is easy - just look at all the H1B assholes here from 3rd-world countries stealing American jobs. false. "del-ton is better than larue because it's so much cheaper" is a more accurate analogy to what you just said. derp |
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Suggesting Python for a 10 year old, someone that most likely hasnt even mastered algebra yet, is a terrible suggestion. However, it would be par for the course in that many coders have terrible math skills. It was a joke. It wasnt directed at you. Foghornleghorn.jpg Quoted:
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That sounds about right for a typical coder. Cant do algebra, but tries to crank out code. Where did that come from? Suggesting Python for a 10 year old, someone that most likely hasnt even mastered algebra yet, is a terrible suggestion. However, it would be par for the course in that many coders have terrible math skills. It was a joke. It wasnt directed at you. Foghornleghorn.jpg Kinda like engineers and humor. That's a joke. It is directed at you. 
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Kinda like engineers and humor. That's a joke. It is directed at you. Quoted:
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That sounds about right for a typical coder. Cant do algebra, but tries to crank out code. Where did that come from? Suggesting Python for a 10 year old, someone that most likely hasnt even mastered algebra yet, is a terrible suggestion. However, it would be par for the course in that many coders have terrible math skills. It was a joke. It wasnt directed at you. Foghornleghorn.jpg Kinda like engineers and humor. That's a joke. It is directed at you. This is truth. I should have known better.
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I'd wager that Python is a better place to start than BASIC on a IIe, like I did at 10yo. Yes, some stuff will be better than others. But just because we love something, or are good at it, doesnt mean everyone else is. I fucking love matlab because its super heavy into linear algebra, theres nothing i cant do with it. I would be super hesitant to suggest it even to other coders. Unless you like thinking in high order dimensionality arrays, its not gonna be for you. A 10 year old? Fuck any kind of coding. Get that kid some kinects and some servos. Maybe some simple logic gates. Make it FUN first and foremost. Throwing any coding language at him now will forever turn him off. |
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Quoted: Yes, some stuff will be better than others. But just because we love something, or are good at it, doesnt mean everyone else is. I fucking love matlab because its super heavy into linear algebra, theres nothing i cant do with it. I would be super hesitant to suggest it even to other coders. A 10 year old? Fuck any kind of coding. Get that kid some kinects and some servos. Maybe some simple logic gates. Make it FUN first and foremost. Throwing any coding language at him now will forever turn him off. Quoted: Quoted: I'd wager that Python is a better place to start than BASIC on a IIe, like I did at 10yo. Yes, some stuff will be better than others. But just because we love something, or are good at it, doesnt mean everyone else is. I fucking love matlab because its super heavy into linear algebra, theres nothing i cant do with it. I would be super hesitant to suggest it even to other coders. A 10 year old? Fuck any kind of coding. Get that kid some kinects and some servos. Maybe some simple logic gates. Make it FUN first and foremost. Throwing any coding language at him now will forever turn him off. The best I could do with my IIe and the BASIC manual was a gambling game. A Pi and Python (with a manual that consists of the entire Internet) is nearly endless. I would assume a father that is looking to get their kid into programming would have already covered things like the equivalent of an erector set by now. |
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Two lines of thought on this conundrum -
Fun first approach - Start them with Python or Javascript - something simple to get up and running, is fairly fun and easy but allows you to write horrible code that still 'works'. The theory is that if you get them excited about code quickly, they will eventually learn the underlying computer science. Work first approach - Start them with C++ or similar unmanaged language - something that requires compiling and in depth knowledge to write good code. The theory is that if they stick with it, they will be a technically better programmer in a shorter amount of time. I think it really depends on the kid. I wanted to know the inner workings, so I and several friends got into C and C++ with some Java thrown in around freshman year of highschool. Other people i'm friends with got into Python around that time and were loving it. All of us are gainfully employed... |
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It's awesome that you want to give your kid a lifelong skill.
For a 10 year old let him learn iOS. He will see his results and can then make his own apps. It's pretty engaging. I don't see how any kid would be interested in programming object oreinetated stuff other than with swift and iOS. He then can make an app and have it on phone and tablet and you can have his "app" on your phone. Once he has a couple of apps he can learn ruby an object orientated language then pick up rails. Have him build Twitter. He needs real life examples on cool projects to keep a kid motivated. Python would be the next easiest language. Please stay away from any thing like Java for a ten year old ( dinosaur should have went the way of objective c but android keeps it viable and all the gov and industry stuff built way back then so it's still in place today.) After he has a full understanding of object orientation he can learn something like full stack javascript( not Java) example and learn node, express, and angular. Seems to be the latest trend since 2011/2012. JavaScript written in the back end and on the front end. Please ignore what a lot of the computer scientists are telling you right now as to what to learn-they can forget what it's like to think as a non programmer for a beginner. Example pick up any book on programming language that is 7 inches thick and they are not written for beginners. Concepts will not change of Comp Science so any object orientated language will serve well, because then he can pick up any language once he knows. Always think the future of programming don't want to learn something like actionscript or flash that once he has an understanding of nobody uses. I vote iOS again so he can see almost immediate results displayed on phone and stick to it. Show me a kid who has learned Java or R or Hadoop and I'll show you a kid who has no tv, Internet, tablet and phone. Point being gotta pick something that will realistically stick and be fun-Attention span. |
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Python and/or Ruby would be good to start with from a conceptual and programatic standpoint. From what you wrote in your original post, I'd also suggest considering Swift to start with if either of you owns or has access to an Apple device. The language was originally intended to be easy to learn and with the software tools available a new/young developer would be able to see immediate and "interesting" results in the Xcode Playground. The documentation is also manageable for those new to the language. |
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I dont code for a living. However, Python is to me as a hammer and saw are to a carpenter. After first learning it, I felt kinda like this... http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/python.png Quoted:
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A Raspberry Pi might be fun... for both of you. Start out with Scratch and then maybe move to Python eventually. My vote aside from never have heard of Scratch. Python is a pretty good "My first programming language". I've made a career of Python. It's a excellent first language, but it's versatile enough that it can be used anywhere. I dont code for a living. However, Python is to me as a hammer and saw are to a carpenter. After first learning it, I felt kinda like this... http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/python.png I feel the same way. I know Javascript very well, and a few other languages well enough that I would consider myself "proficient" - but Python is how I think. I've been teaching people programming lately, and going with what I call an "object-first" approach - I have physical boxes that I use to describe some of the concepts. It meshes really well with Python's data model, which is fully object-oriented. Learning about what an object is on day one is hard, but once it clicks that knowledge gives a huge amount of insight into how things work that someone of their experience wouldn't normally have. |
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Suggesting Python for a 10 year old, someone that most likely hasnt even mastered algebra yet, is a terrible suggestion. However, it would be par for the course in that many coders have terrible math skills. It was a joke. It wasnt directed at you. Foghornleghorn.jpg Quoted:
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That sounds about right for a typical coder. Cant do algebra, but tries to crank out code. Where did that come from? Suggesting Python for a 10 year old, someone that most likely hasnt even mastered algebra yet, is a terrible suggestion. However, it would be par for the course in that many coders have terrible math skills. It was a joke. It wasnt directed at you. Foghornleghorn.jpg Children will surprise you. My eldest daughter is 7, and she has a very hard time with the way math is broken down in her textbooks. I started using basic algebra to explain things, and it clicked immediately. The only change I've made from an introductory college algebra textbook is that I use an empty box ("blank") to represent a variable instead of a letter. |
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Some of you have apparently missed that this is for a 10 year old... For a 10 year old I would suggest the Lego mind storms kit. It's speedy but you can program it in C when the kid grows up. Some kids can pick up C or Python at 10 but most would be bored or not be able to grasp the concept. The Lego environment is visual but still teaches the fundamentals. 
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Suggesting Python for a 10 year old, someone that most likely hasnt even mastered algebra yet, is a terrible suggestion. However, it would be par for the course in that many coders have terrible math skills. It was a joke. It wasnt directed at you. Foghornleghorn.jpg The first programming language I ever studied seriously was Pascal, and I started when I was around 10 or 11 years old. My Dad was taking computer science classes at the local JC, and I was fascinated by his homework. I learned using his textbook. Kids will surprise the hell out of you. I obviously didn't know algebra yet. The thing is, when I started pre-algebra in the 8th grade, I was picking it up VERY quickly. It was effortless. It made a lot of intuitive sense, because it reminded me of programming. Similarly, the further I got through math (all the way to Calculus I in HS), the better I got at programming - even though I rarely wrote programs that did more than basic arithmetic. The two skills (math and programming) are very complimentary to one another. They both change how your brain is wired, and they both make you think about solving problems in similar ways. If you're good at one, you'll be good at the other. To this day, I think I picked up math a lot faster because of my programming hobby. And vice versa. |
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kids need feed back too. https://codecombat.com/ teaches you to code by coding a player in a game. Interesting. Just signed up for Code Combat, I think my kid will like it. Cool. I'm playing it studying Python now. |