Posted: 10/8/2015 12:38:44 PM EDT
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My head is about to explode. I just watched a CNN bit about a training video for active shooter defense that says you should respond to an active shooter, in order, by: 1) Alerting authorities; 2) locking yourself in whatever space you're in; 3) keeping informing authorities about what is going on; 4) counter-attacking if the shooter gets in to where you are; and finally 5) evacuating.
I have no formal combat or military training. However, it seems obvious to me that step 1 should be getting out of the kill zone, i.e. evacuate, if you can. If you can't do that, step 2 should be immediate counter attack. Alerting authorities should come once you've gotten out of the kill zone. The order of counterattacking should depend on the circumstances, and could be anywhere from step 1 to step 3. I think lockdown should be a last resort, unless you know 100% for sure the shooter can't get to where you are (which is unlikely). I simply cannot believe this "training" video has GTFO as the last step. I would love to hear from those with training and experience what they think is the best way to react to an active shooter. By the way, this CNN bit was used to criticize Ben Carson's statement that people should overwhelm an active shooter so not everybody gets killed. I find Carson's statement pretty hard to disagree with. I sure am glad those guys on the train in France didn't see the ALICE video. Just get in the boxcar. Everything will be fine when we get there . . . |
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they will eventually go to automated, remote locking doors, like you see in a movie, they hit the button and everything locks down, storm shutters roll closed over windows, etc. . principal hits a panic button, and every door in the school locks instantly, ( along with reinforced doors) and fire doors roll closed, sealing people in where ever they might be located.. which might be good if your not near the shooter... might be bad if your in same room with the shooter.
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| Let me put it this way...I worked in a bar. It was across the street (directly across the street) from the police station. I called in regards to an issue with a patron one time and it took 21 minutes...21!! To respond from across the street. If you choose to stay in the kill zone, lock yourself in, and are waiting for emergency services to come aid your rescue during a shooting spree then good luck to you. |
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Quoted:
they will eventually go to automated, remote locking doors, like you see in a movie, they hit the button and everything locks down, storm shutters roll closed over windows, etc. . principal hits a panic button, and every door in the school locks instantly, ( along with reinforced doors) and fire doors roll closed, sealing people in where ever they might be located.. which might be good if your not near the shooter... might be bad if your in same room with the shooter. Probably - it will be a "greater good" kind of situation. Whoever happens to be locked down in the same room as the shooter will be sacrificed in order to secure everyone else. |
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ALICE ?......really?.....you expect people to remember shit beyond their basic instincts for survival?
Active Shooter training: 3 simple things to remember ... Run---Hide---Fight No need to go thru a stupid laundry list the size of an ArfCom gen. discussion acronym. |
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At least they included "Counter" at all.... ETA: And my wife's classroom has only one door and no windows. Evacuate is a difficult option at best.  On an unrelated note, she wants me to give her a ballpeen hammer for...hammering things... She needs to make up a need for a machete to do crafts or something. |
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We had an ALICE training session in one of my classes my junior year of college; a campus police officer came to class and explained what we should do in an active shooter situation. This included such gems as "throw your textbooks at him, then run away." I asked him if he thought it might be more effective in that situation to use a gun to kill the shooter (theoretically, of course, since it was a gun-free campus). His response was along the lines of "college students aren't trained to do that."
I said that the Marine Corps thought I was trained enough to go to Afghanistan, and the state of Ohio thought I was trained enough to get a CCW permit, so did I suddenly become less trained when I came to class? "Uh, this isn't really the time or the place to have that discussion..." Turns out he was a CCW instructor, too. 
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She needs to make up a need for a machete to do crafts or something. Quoted:
Quoted:
At least they included "Counter" at all.... ETA: And my wife's classroom has only one door and no windows. Evacuate is a difficult option at best. On an unrelated note, she wants me to give her a ballpeen hammer for...hammering things...She needs to make up a need for a machete to do crafts or something. She's a US history teacher, so.... I told her to hide behind her larger students if shit happens, she didn't seem think I was very funny.
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Don't forget the large can of WASP spray... 
Quoted:
At least they included "Counter" at all.... ETA: And my wife's classroom has only one door and no windows. Evacuate is a difficult option at best. On an unrelated note, she wants me to give her a ballpeen hammer for...hammering things... |
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Quoted:
Let me put it this way...I worked in a bar. It was across the street (directly across the street) from the police station. I called in regards to an issue with a patron one time and it took 21 minutes...21!! To respond from across the street. If you choose to stay in the kill zone, lock yourself in, and are waiting for emergency services to come aid your rescue during a shooting spree then good luck to you. Your comparison is faulty to say the least. Your best odds of survival are to immediately attack the gunman before he can take control of the room and overwhelm him with thrown items/tables/chairs, while simultaneously rushing him/her. Period. Locking yourself in a room to die or be executed is about the stupidest fucking thing I can imagine. Ask the countless scores of people who tried that shit. Oh wait...a lot of them are dead already. Try again. |
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I have no formal combat or military training So despite that you're going to counter the doctrine of those that do? The Department of Defence, the guys with some formal combat and military training, are teaching that exact same process to its departments. The problem with your solution of immediate evacuation is that it collects all the bodies together for something like a bomb or automatic weapon attack. In an office space there is no "kill zone" there's an active shooter and +200-300 office doors and hallways. Un-assing yourself puts you into the line of fire of those responding to the active shooter. In what way can you identify the shooter from the other 1200 people streaming out of the building? We're taught to lock our doors, barricade the doors, and wait for the all clear to be delivered. We're told that the first responders are going to very aggressive and to stay low to the ground, not make any moves, to follow directions, and to not expect them to render first aid. The guys in the body armor with the automatic weapons are seeking the source of the pain. The guys with the bandages will follow. I am part of the first response team. If able, I am to report to the building's amory where there's a set of body armor, a uniform hat, and a weapon waiting for me. I attended the required training, hell I half-taught the weapon safety and marksmanship, and work with the armed civilian contractors in the building during drills. Because of federal law, there has to be certain roles that the armed civilian guard force has to take and we're not allowed to perform. I will not go into any detail on what our reaction is going to be beyond these sketchy details. We train quarterly on the active shooter response and have been doing so for a long time. If an active shooter does break their way into a room the personnel there are to fight with whatever weapons they have, unfortunately the federal government doesn't recognize California's rather liberal law which states that no CCW is required to conceal carry at your place of work. Those of us with personal weapons leave our cars parked outside the fence line in front of the guard shack. The guards know why and there's more than one camera and set of eyes watching our vehicles. Anyone wandering into that lot is observed, recorded, and if the guards are bored chatted with. We've had red team drills run against our facility where the professional "terrorist" set off the building's fire alarm and then once everyone was assembled at their muster points "shot" dozens through the fence line. We now treat fire alarms as security alerts and the guards break out the long guns and the first responder team suits and arms up. We've moved some of our muster points to places where the personnel are more sheltered/less exposed. Your un-ass yourself from the building is the exact same thing that we don't want to do ... assemble together in a large unsheltered group. |
Seriously though. If you can avoid the shooter, avoid. Otherwise, if every room full of people a shooter came upon rose up and charged and clawed at him like they were the walking dead, it might slow them down a bit. Simply cowering in front of a shooter is going to do nothing to lower the body count. |
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Quoted:
So despite that you're going to counter the doctrine of those that do? The Department of Defence, the guys with some formal combat and military training, are teaching that exact same process to its departments. The problem with your solution of immediate evacuation is that it collects all the bodies together for something like a bomb or automatic weapon attack. In an office space there is no "kill zone" there's an active shooter and +200-300 office doors and hallways. Un-assing yourself puts you into the line of fire of those responding to the active shooter. In what way can you identify the shooter from the other 1200 people streaming out of the building? We're taught to lock our doors, barricade the doors, and wait for the all clear to be delivered. We're told that the first responders are going to very aggressive and to stay low to the ground, not make any moves, to follow directions, and to not expect them to render first aid. The guys in the body armor with the automatic weapons are seeking the source of the pain. The guys with the bandages will follow. I am part of the first response team. If able, I am to report to the building's amory where there's a set of body armor, a uniform hat, and a weapon waiting for me. I attended the required training, hell I half-taught the weapon safety and marksmanship, and work with the armed civilian contractors in the building during drills. Because of federal law, there has to be certain roles that the armed civilian guard force has to take and we're not allowed to perform. I will not go into any detail on what our reaction is going to be beyond these sketchy details. We train quarterly on the active shooter response and have been doing so for a long time. If an active shooter does break their way into a room the personnel there are to fight with whatever weapons they have, unfortunately the federal government doesn't recognize California's rather liberal law which states that no CCW is required to conceal carry at your place of work. Those of us with personal weapons leave our cars parked outside the fence line in front of the guard shack. The guards know why and there's more than one camera and set of eyes watching our vehicles. Anyone wandering into that lot is observed, recorded, and if the guards are bored chatted with. We've had red team drills run against our facility where the professional "terrorist" set off the building's fire alarm and then once everyone was assembled at their muster points "shot" dozens through the fence line. We now treat fire alarms as security alerts and the guards break out the long guns and the first responder team suits and arms up. We've moved some of our muster points to places where the personnel are more sheltered/less exposed. Your un-ass yourself from the building is the exact same thing that we don't want to do ... assemble together in a large unsheltered group. Quoted:
I have no formal combat or military training So despite that you're going to counter the doctrine of those that do? The Department of Defence, the guys with some formal combat and military training, are teaching that exact same process to its departments. The problem with your solution of immediate evacuation is that it collects all the bodies together for something like a bomb or automatic weapon attack. In an office space there is no "kill zone" there's an active shooter and +200-300 office doors and hallways. Un-assing yourself puts you into the line of fire of those responding to the active shooter. In what way can you identify the shooter from the other 1200 people streaming out of the building? We're taught to lock our doors, barricade the doors, and wait for the all clear to be delivered. We're told that the first responders are going to very aggressive and to stay low to the ground, not make any moves, to follow directions, and to not expect them to render first aid. The guys in the body armor with the automatic weapons are seeking the source of the pain. The guys with the bandages will follow. I am part of the first response team. If able, I am to report to the building's amory where there's a set of body armor, a uniform hat, and a weapon waiting for me. I attended the required training, hell I half-taught the weapon safety and marksmanship, and work with the armed civilian contractors in the building during drills. Because of federal law, there has to be certain roles that the armed civilian guard force has to take and we're not allowed to perform. I will not go into any detail on what our reaction is going to be beyond these sketchy details. We train quarterly on the active shooter response and have been doing so for a long time. If an active shooter does break their way into a room the personnel there are to fight with whatever weapons they have, unfortunately the federal government doesn't recognize California's rather liberal law which states that no CCW is required to conceal carry at your place of work. Those of us with personal weapons leave our cars parked outside the fence line in front of the guard shack. The guards know why and there's more than one camera and set of eyes watching our vehicles. Anyone wandering into that lot is observed, recorded, and if the guards are bored chatted with. We've had red team drills run against our facility where the professional "terrorist" set off the building's fire alarm and then once everyone was assembled at their muster points "shot" dozens through the fence line. We now treat fire alarms as security alerts and the guards break out the long guns and the first responder team suits and arms up. We've moved some of our muster points to places where the personnel are more sheltered/less exposed. Your un-ass yourself from the building is the exact same thing that we don't want to do ... assemble together in a large unsheltered group. Good post. Thanks for sharing! |
If you in close proximity to the shooter, it seems like the first step would be to either draw or look for cover depending on the scenario. My old school just sent out this stupid assed, "Run, Hide, Fight" video again that they were touting years ago as well. It is so shortsighted to make up bullshit acronyms as if every situation is one size fits all and that the smartest thing to always do is retreat  |
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ALICE ?......really?.....you expect people to remember shit beyond their basic instincts for survival? Active Shooter training: 3 simple things to remember ... Run---Hide---Fight No need to go thru a stupid laundry list the size of an ArfCom gen. discussion acronym. Yep... Get out. Hide out.Take out... |
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Your comparison is faulty to say the least. Your best odds of survival are to immediately attack the gunman before he can take control of the room and overwhelm him with thrown items/tables/chairs, while simultaneously rushing him/her. Period. Locking yourself in a room to die or be executed is about the stupidest fucking thing I can imagine. Ask the countless scores of people who tried that shit. Oh wait...a lot of them are dead already. Try again. Quoted:
Quoted:
Let me put it this way...I worked in a bar. It was across the street (directly across the street) from the police station. I called in regards to an issue with a patron one time and it took 21 minutes...21!! To respond from across the street. If you choose to stay in the kill zone, lock yourself in, and are waiting for emergency services to come aid your rescue during a shooting spree then good luck to you. Your comparison is faulty to say the least. Your best odds of survival are to immediately attack the gunman before he can take control of the room and overwhelm him with thrown items/tables/chairs, while simultaneously rushing him/her. Period. Locking yourself in a room to die or be executed is about the stupidest fucking thing I can imagine. Ask the countless scores of people who tried that shit. Oh wait...a lot of them are dead already. Try again. How is my comparison faulty? I'm simply stating the response time of a police station when located directly across the street to the call. Just googling average police response time you'll find 9 minutes. I was across the street, and while not entirely a life and death situation, it was an emergency that they chose to take 21 minutes to respond to when I was simply 100 yards away. What if the patron stabbed me in that time? I would've been better dragging the patron into the cop shop myself (I had to throw out my fair share, but figured all of them could sleep it off). My statement pertains only to the fact that police will not make it in time regardless to make a difference and good luck to those that put their fate in the hands of others to save them. |
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It doesn't matter. These incidents are so ridiculously rare it is nonsensical to even train for them in that there is a real world disconnect for those being trained. Basically it is all going to fall to shit anyway. You could possibly train teachers with repeated drills, but that that time would be better spent training for lightning strikes as that is more likely.
Ultimately it comes down to the one person or potentially people who stops the shooter. Maybe that is by his own bullet after realizing there is no way out or from someone else's bullet. That means individual action by someone with the training and the mindset to do something about it. But this is a moot point as this is just to make people feel better and in more control. |
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At least they included "Counter" at all.... ETA: And my wife's classroom has only one door and no windows. Evacuate is a difficult option at best. On an unrelated note, she wants me to give her a ballpeen hammer for...hammering things...My wife and I "talked" fire extinguisher as a defensive tool all the way from spray em in the face to bash em over the head! |
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So despite that you're going to counter the doctrine of those that do? The Department of Defence, the guys with some formal combat and military training, are teaching that exact same process to its departments. The problem with your solution of immediate evacuation is that it collects all the bodies together for something like a bomb or automatic weapon attack. In an office space there is no "kill zone" there's an active shooter and +200-300 office doors and hallways. Un-assing yourself puts you into the line of fire of those responding to the active shooter. In what way can you identify the shooter from the other 1200 people streaming out of the building? We're taught to lock our doors, barricade the doors, and wait for the all clear to be delivered. We're told that the first responders are going to very aggressive and to stay low to the ground, not make any moves, to follow directions, and to not expect them to render first aid. The guys in the body armor with the automatic weapons are seeking the source of the pain. The guys with the bandages will follow. I am part of the first response team. If able, I am to report to the building's amory where there's a set of body armor, a uniform hat, and a weapon waiting for me. I attended the required training, hell I half-taught the weapon safety and marksmanship, and work with the armed civilian contractors in the building during drills. Because of federal law, there has to be certain roles that the armed civilian guard force has to take and we're not allowed to perform. I will not go into any detail on what our reaction is going to be beyond these sketchy details. We train quarterly on the active shooter response and have been doing so for a long time. If an active shooter does break their way into a room the personnel there are to fight with whatever weapons they have, unfortunately the federal government doesn't recognize California's rather liberal law which states that no CCW is required to conceal carry at your place of work. Those of us with personal weapons leave our cars parked outside the fence line in front of the guard shack. The guards know why and there's more than one camera and set of eyes watching our vehicles. Anyone wandering into that lot is observed, recorded, and if the guards are bored chatted with. We've had red team drills run against our facility where the professional "terrorist" set off the building's fire alarm and then once everyone was assembled at their muster points "shot" dozens through the fence line. We now treat fire alarms as security alerts and the guards break out the long guns and the first responder team suits and arms up. We've moved some of our muster points to places where the personnel are more sheltered/less exposed. Your un-ass yourself from the building is the exact same thing that we don't want to do ... assemble together in a large unsheltered group. Quoted:
I have no formal combat or military training So despite that you're going to counter the doctrine of those that do? The Department of Defence, the guys with some formal combat and military training, are teaching that exact same process to its departments. The problem with your solution of immediate evacuation is that it collects all the bodies together for something like a bomb or automatic weapon attack. In an office space there is no "kill zone" there's an active shooter and +200-300 office doors and hallways. Un-assing yourself puts you into the line of fire of those responding to the active shooter. In what way can you identify the shooter from the other 1200 people streaming out of the building? We're taught to lock our doors, barricade the doors, and wait for the all clear to be delivered. We're told that the first responders are going to very aggressive and to stay low to the ground, not make any moves, to follow directions, and to not expect them to render first aid. The guys in the body armor with the automatic weapons are seeking the source of the pain. The guys with the bandages will follow. I am part of the first response team. If able, I am to report to the building's amory where there's a set of body armor, a uniform hat, and a weapon waiting for me. I attended the required training, hell I half-taught the weapon safety and marksmanship, and work with the armed civilian contractors in the building during drills. Because of federal law, there has to be certain roles that the armed civilian guard force has to take and we're not allowed to perform. I will not go into any detail on what our reaction is going to be beyond these sketchy details. We train quarterly on the active shooter response and have been doing so for a long time. If an active shooter does break their way into a room the personnel there are to fight with whatever weapons they have, unfortunately the federal government doesn't recognize California's rather liberal law which states that no CCW is required to conceal carry at your place of work. Those of us with personal weapons leave our cars parked outside the fence line in front of the guard shack. The guards know why and there's more than one camera and set of eyes watching our vehicles. Anyone wandering into that lot is observed, recorded, and if the guards are bored chatted with. We've had red team drills run against our facility where the professional "terrorist" set off the building's fire alarm and then once everyone was assembled at their muster points "shot" dozens through the fence line. We now treat fire alarms as security alerts and the guards break out the long guns and the first responder team suits and arms up. We've moved some of our muster points to places where the personnel are more sheltered/less exposed. Your un-ass yourself from the building is the exact same thing that we don't want to do ... assemble together in a large unsheltered group. Thanks for the response. If I'm in a building my interest is primarily going to be saving myself and my family members that are with me. My questions are about what should the occupants do to give themselves the best chance of survival. Respectfully, many of the things you're saying about your training seem more oriented toward making the first responders' tasks less complex than they are oriented toward giving the people inside the best chance to survive. For example, there is this: "In what way can you identify the shooter from the other 1200 people streaming out of the building? We're taught to lock our doors, barricade the doors, and wait for the all clear to be delivered. We're told that the first responders are going to very aggressive . . . . " Since no active shooter I'm aware of has ever escaped by disarming and blending in with his victims, maybe that shouldn't be that big of a concern. It still seems to me like sheltering in place and hoping the first responders get the shooter before he gets you is a bad plan. It's easy to tell where gunfire is coming from and move away from it. If you're saying my efforts to escape put me in as much danger from the first responders shooting me as the danger posed by the active shooter shooting me, we might need to re-examine the first responders' training. Your post highlights the tension between individuals trying to save themselves from a threat and one group (first responders) trying to save another group (all building occupants) from that same threat. After reading your post, I'm wondering if the goal of active shooter training (including the ALICE stuff) is to strike a balance between saving lives inside the building, simplifying (and increasing the safety of) the first response, and catching the shooter. I would think the goal would be to save the most lives of those inside the building, but maybe it's not. And maybe that shouldn't be the goal. Anyway, thanks again for posting. It's good food for thought. |
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Quoted: So despite that you're going to counter the doctrine of those that do? The Department of Defence, the guys with some formal combat and military training, are teaching that exact same process to its departments. The problem with your solution of immediate evacuation is that it collects all the bodies together for something like a bomb or automatic weapon attack. In an office space there is no "kill zone" there's an active shooter and +200-300 office doors and hallways. Un-assing yourself puts you into the line of fire of those responding to the active shooter. In what way can you identify the shooter from the other 1200 people streaming out of the building? We're taught to lock our doors, barricade the doors, and wait for the all clear to be delivered. We're told that the first responders are going to very aggressive and to stay low to the ground, not make any moves, to follow directions, and to not expect them to render first aid. The guys in the body armor with the automatic weapons are seeking the source of the pain. The guys with the bandages will follow. I am part of the first response team. If able, I am to report to the building's amory where there's a set of body armor, a uniform hat, and a weapon waiting for me. I attended the required training, hell I half-taught the weapon safety and marksmanship, and work with the armed civilian contractors in the building during drills. Because of federal law, there has to be certain roles that the armed civilian guard force has to take and we're not allowed to perform. I will not go into any detail on what our reaction is going to be beyond these sketchy details. We train quarterly on the active shooter response and have been doing so for a long time. If an active shooter does break their way into a room the personnel there are to fight with whatever weapons they have, unfortunately the federal government doesn't recognize California's rather liberal law which states that no CCW is required to conceal carry at your place of work. Those of us with personal weapons leave our cars parked outside the fence line in front of the guard shack. The guards know why and there's more than one camera and set of eyes watching our vehicles. Anyone wandering into that lot is observed, recorded, and if the guards are bored chatted with. We've had red team drills run against our facility where the professional "terrorist" set off the building's fire alarm and then once everyone was assembled at their muster points "shot" dozens through the fence line. We now treat fire alarms as security alerts and the guards break out the long guns and the first responder team suits and arms up. We've moved some of our muster points to places where the personnel are more sheltered/less exposed. Your un-ass yourself from the building is the exact same thing that we don't want to do ... assemble together in a large unsheltered group. Quoted: I have no formal combat or military training So despite that you're going to counter the doctrine of those that do? The Department of Defence, the guys with some formal combat and military training, are teaching that exact same process to its departments. The problem with your solution of immediate evacuation is that it collects all the bodies together for something like a bomb or automatic weapon attack. In an office space there is no "kill zone" there's an active shooter and +200-300 office doors and hallways. Un-assing yourself puts you into the line of fire of those responding to the active shooter. In what way can you identify the shooter from the other 1200 people streaming out of the building? We're taught to lock our doors, barricade the doors, and wait for the all clear to be delivered. We're told that the first responders are going to very aggressive and to stay low to the ground, not make any moves, to follow directions, and to not expect them to render first aid. The guys in the body armor with the automatic weapons are seeking the source of the pain. The guys with the bandages will follow. I am part of the first response team. If able, I am to report to the building's amory where there's a set of body armor, a uniform hat, and a weapon waiting for me. I attended the required training, hell I half-taught the weapon safety and marksmanship, and work with the armed civilian contractors in the building during drills. Because of federal law, there has to be certain roles that the armed civilian guard force has to take and we're not allowed to perform. I will not go into any detail on what our reaction is going to be beyond these sketchy details. We train quarterly on the active shooter response and have been doing so for a long time. If an active shooter does break their way into a room the personnel there are to fight with whatever weapons they have, unfortunately the federal government doesn't recognize California's rather liberal law which states that no CCW is required to conceal carry at your place of work. Those of us with personal weapons leave our cars parked outside the fence line in front of the guard shack. The guards know why and there's more than one camera and set of eyes watching our vehicles. Anyone wandering into that lot is observed, recorded, and if the guards are bored chatted with. We've had red team drills run against our facility where the professional "terrorist" set off the building's fire alarm and then once everyone was assembled at their muster points "shot" dozens through the fence line. We now treat fire alarms as security alerts and the guards break out the long guns and the first responder team suits and arms up. We've moved some of our muster points to places where the personnel are more sheltered/less exposed. Your un-ass yourself from the building is the exact same thing that we don't want to do ... assemble together in a large unsheltered group. Good procedure for a DOD installation, and one for a school are probably not the same. |
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My wife and I "talked" fire extinguisher as a defensive tool all the way from spray em in the face to bash em over the head! Quoted:
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At least they included "Counter" at all.... ETA: And my wife's classroom has only one door and no windows. Evacuate is a difficult option at best. On an unrelated note, she wants me to give her a ballpeen hammer for...hammering things...My wife and I "talked" fire extinguisher as a defensive tool all the way from spray em in the face to bash em over the head! Also makes for a good smoke screen. If I seen one I'd 180 
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Quoted: We had an ALICE training session in one of my classes my junior year of college; a campus police officer came to class and explained what we should do in an active shooter situation. This included such gems as "throw your textbooks at him, then run away." I asked him if he thought it might be more effective in that situation to use a gun to kill the shooter (theoretically, of course, since it was a gun-free campus). His response was along the lines of "college students aren't trained to do that." I said that the Marine Corps thought I was trained enough to go to Afghanistan, and the state of Ohio thought I was trained enough to get a CCW permit, so did I suddenly become less trained when I came to class? "Uh, this isn't really the time or the place to have that discussion..." Turns out he was a CCW instructor, too. Throwing a book bag or books at the shooter isn't that bad of an idea... If used as a tactic to advance on the shooter and subdue them. Of course...shooting them would be the preferred method. |
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My son is a student at the same community college where my wife works, and their 'active shooter' plans are the same.
"Flee and out as much distance between you and the gunshots as possible, meet up at Subway down the street". El Oso is a big guy, and worthy of his nickname, and so any path he takes will have a line of students following, as he plows a path to safety. He's not a shooter, despite having grown up in a house full of guns, and so sticking around to swap lead with an active shooter will only result in me burying another one of my kids. |
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How is my comparison faulty? I'm simply stating the response time of a police station when located directly across the street to the call. Just googling average police response time you'll find 9 minutes. I was across the street, and while not entirely a life and death situation, it was an emergency that they chose to take 21 minutes to respond to when I was simply 100 yards away. What if the patron stabbed me in that time? I would've been better dragging the patron into the cop shop myself (I had to throw out my fair share, but figured all of them could sleep it off). My statement pertains only to the fact that police will not make it in time regardless to make a difference and good luck to those that put their fate in the hands of others to save them. Quoted:
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Let me put it this way...I worked in a bar. It was across the street (directly across the street) from the police station. I called in regards to an issue with a patron one time and it took 21 minutes...21!! To respond from across the street. If you choose to stay in the kill zone, lock yourself in, and are waiting for emergency services to come aid your rescue during a shooting spree then good luck to you. Your comparison is faulty to say the least. Your best odds of survival are to immediately attack the gunman before he can take control of the room and overwhelm him with thrown items/tables/chairs, while simultaneously rushing him/her. Period. Locking yourself in a room to die or be executed is about the stupidest fucking thing I can imagine. Ask the countless scores of people who tried that shit. Oh wait...a lot of them are dead already. Try again. How is my comparison faulty? I'm simply stating the response time of a police station when located directly across the street to the call. Just googling average police response time you'll find 9 minutes. I was across the street, and while not entirely a life and death situation, it was an emergency that they chose to take 21 minutes to respond to when I was simply 100 yards away. What if the patron stabbed me in that time? I would've been better dragging the patron into the cop shop myself (I had to throw out my fair share, but figured all of them could sleep it off). My statement pertains only to the fact that police will not make it in time regardless to make a difference and good luck to those that put their fate in the hands of others to save them. LEOs are in general , are not supposed to be hanging around the station. I mean just how effective would it be to hangout at the station until you get a call? I've worked municipal and county jobs, and have always been told to be out in the community, visible and proactive. |
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So despite that you're going to counter the doctrine of those that do? The Department of Defence, the guys with some formal combat and military training, are teaching that exact same process to its departments. The problem with your solution of immediate evacuation is that it collects all the bodies together for something like a bomb or automatic weapon attack. In an office space there is no "kill zone" there's an active shooter and +200-300 office doors and hallways. Un-assing yourself puts you into the line of fire of those responding to the active shooter. In what way can you identify the shooter from the other 1200 people streaming out of the building? We're taught to lock our doors, barricade the doors, and wait for the all clear to be delivered. We're told that the first responders are going to very aggressive and to stay low to the ground, not make any moves, to follow directions, and to not expect them to render first aid. The guys in the body armor with the automatic weapons are seeking the source of the pain. The guys with the bandages will follow. I am part of the first response team. If able, I am to report to the building's amory where there's a set of body armor, a uniform hat, and a weapon waiting for me. I attended the required training, hell I half-taught the weapon safety and marksmanship, and work with the armed civilian contractors in the building during drills. Because of federal law, there has to be certain roles that the armed civilian guard force has to take and we're not allowed to perform. I will not go into any detail on what our reaction is going to be beyond these sketchy details. We train quarterly on the active shooter response and have been doing so for a long time. If an active shooter does break their way into a room the personnel there are to fight with whatever weapons they have, unfortunately the federal government doesn't recognize California's rather liberal law which states that no CCW is required to conceal carry at your place of work. Those of us with personal weapons leave our cars parked outside the fence line in front of the guard shack. The guards know why and there's more than one camera and set of eyes watching our vehicles. Anyone wandering into that lot is observed, recorded, and if the guards are bored chatted with. We've had red team drills run against our facility where the professional "terrorist" set off the building's fire alarm and then once everyone was assembled at their muster points "shot" dozens through the fence line. We now treat fire alarms as security alerts and the guards break out the long guns and the first responder team suits and arms up. We've moved some of our muster points to places where the personnel are more sheltered/less exposed. Your un-ass yourself from the building is the exact same thing that we don't want to do ... assemble together in a large unsheltered group. Quoted:
I have no formal combat or military training So despite that you're going to counter the doctrine of those that do? The Department of Defence, the guys with some formal combat and military training, are teaching that exact same process to its departments. The problem with your solution of immediate evacuation is that it collects all the bodies together for something like a bomb or automatic weapon attack. In an office space there is no "kill zone" there's an active shooter and +200-300 office doors and hallways. Un-assing yourself puts you into the line of fire of those responding to the active shooter. In what way can you identify the shooter from the other 1200 people streaming out of the building? We're taught to lock our doors, barricade the doors, and wait for the all clear to be delivered. We're told that the first responders are going to very aggressive and to stay low to the ground, not make any moves, to follow directions, and to not expect them to render first aid. The guys in the body armor with the automatic weapons are seeking the source of the pain. The guys with the bandages will follow. I am part of the first response team. If able, I am to report to the building's amory where there's a set of body armor, a uniform hat, and a weapon waiting for me. I attended the required training, hell I half-taught the weapon safety and marksmanship, and work with the armed civilian contractors in the building during drills. Because of federal law, there has to be certain roles that the armed civilian guard force has to take and we're not allowed to perform. I will not go into any detail on what our reaction is going to be beyond these sketchy details. We train quarterly on the active shooter response and have been doing so for a long time. If an active shooter does break their way into a room the personnel there are to fight with whatever weapons they have, unfortunately the federal government doesn't recognize California's rather liberal law which states that no CCW is required to conceal carry at your place of work. Those of us with personal weapons leave our cars parked outside the fence line in front of the guard shack. The guards know why and there's more than one camera and set of eyes watching our vehicles. Anyone wandering into that lot is observed, recorded, and if the guards are bored chatted with. We've had red team drills run against our facility where the professional "terrorist" set off the building's fire alarm and then once everyone was assembled at their muster points "shot" dozens through the fence line. We now treat fire alarms as security alerts and the guards break out the long guns and the first responder team suits and arms up. We've moved some of our muster points to places where the personnel are more sheltered/less exposed. Your un-ass yourself from the building is the exact same thing that we don't want to do ... assemble together in a large unsheltered group. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VcSwejU2D0 This was the training I was given. Step one is run, then hide, last fight. Also alphabet soup agency worker here. I just simply do not believe your story. |
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If legal, I'd totally get a 556 krink, SBR it, and keep it in my book bag with my lesson plans.  Quoted:
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It should be: "pull your AK folder out of your ALICE pack, and get to work fighting the shooter and protecting your peers" I did this at the office I worked in when I lived in Florida. It was like a gunshow at that place towards the end of the week, and a majority of the office staff went shooting on their lunch breaks. Was right around the Trayvon times when they were supposed to have massive rallies and protests and people started saying they were going to get violent towards white people in some of the larger cities (which is where I was). Decided that instead of my CCW pistol in my bag as I usually did (kind of a large laptop bag with an open flap) I'd bring the SBR 5.45 Krinkov and a bunch of mags. Fit perfect, no one could tell. |
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LEOs are in general , are not supposed to be hanging around the station. I mean just how effective would it be to hangout at the station until you get a call? I've worked municipal and county jobs, and have always been told to be out in the community, visible and proactive. Quoted:
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Let me put it this way...I worked in a bar. It was across the street (directly across the street) from the police station. I called in regards to an issue with a patron one time and it took 21 minutes...21!! To respond from across the street. If you choose to stay in the kill zone, lock yourself in, and are waiting for emergency services to come aid your rescue during a shooting spree then good luck to you. Your comparison is faulty to say the least. Your best odds of survival are to immediately attack the gunman before he can take control of the room and overwhelm him with thrown items/tables/chairs, while simultaneously rushing him/her. Period. Locking yourself in a room to die or be executed is about the stupidest fucking thing I can imagine. Ask the countless scores of people who tried that shit. Oh wait...a lot of them are dead already. Try again. How is my comparison faulty? I'm simply stating the response time of a police station when located directly across the street to the call. Just googling average police response time you'll find 9 minutes. I was across the street, and while not entirely a life and death situation, it was an emergency that they chose to take 21 minutes to respond to when I was simply 100 yards away. What if the patron stabbed me in that time? I would've been better dragging the patron into the cop shop myself (I had to throw out my fair share, but figured all of them could sleep it off). My statement pertains only to the fact that police will not make it in time regardless to make a difference and good luck to those that put their fate in the hands of others to save them. LEOs are in general , are not supposed to be hanging around the station. I mean just how effective would it be to hangout at the station until you get a call? I've worked municipal and county jobs, and have always been told to be out in the community, visible and proactive. That's nice, but the town I worked wasn't overly large and their only concern is revenue from DUI arrests. I doubt there wasn't someone available, but hey, I don't work there. Just giving my personal experience with response from the police. |
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We had an ALICE training session in one of my classes my junior year of college; a campus police officer came to class and explained what we should do in an active shooter situation. This included such gems as "throw your textbooks at him, then run away." I asked him if he thought it might be more effective in that situation to use a gun to kill the shooter (theoretically, of course, since it was a gun-free campus). His response was along the lines of "college students aren't trained to do that." I said that the Marine Corps thought I was trained enough to go to Afghanistan, and the state of Ohio thought I was trained enough to get a CCW permit, so did I suddenly become less trained when I came to class? "Uh, this isn't really the time or the place to have that discussion..." Turns out he was a CCW instructor, too. You don't suppose that he's working off an approved script and will be fired if he throws it out and suggests everyone carry illegally in case of a shooter? "Officer Duffy said I should carry a gun just in case." Doesn't matter if he thinks no gun zones are stupid or not he's not allowed to voice an opinion that contravenes the law. There are plenty of cops who'd gladly tell the public to get training and carry 24/7 everywhere but they'd quickly be unemployed cops. |
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Quoted: Let me put it this way...I worked in a bar. It was across the street (directly across the street) from the police station. I called in regards to an issue with a patron one time and it took 21 minutes...21!! To respond from across the street. If you choose to stay in the kill zone, lock yourself in, and are waiting for emergency services to come aid your rescue during a shooting spree then good luck to you. Inglewood, CA - 1989. A contractor and I were on the roof of the building doing some stuff with the chill water system for the MRI system I supported. We hear a gunshot, followed by a couple more and run over to the roof edge to see what the hell is going on. Bunch of the local youths are shooting it out. This is right across the street from the Inglewood PD. The shooting went on for about 5 or 6 minutes. I looked over at the PD expecting to see cops charging across the street. Nope, they're were several cops that came out and stood in front watching the shooting. When it ended they all just went back inside. It was a good 10 good minutes or so, after the shooting stopped, before I heard the first siren and it was coming up La Brea from the south. This was long enough for the "kids" to pick all the loose weapons and run off. The fallacy that the police will be there to protect you is just that. |