[ARCHIVED THREAD] - NFA Trust Questions (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/23/2015 5:40:29 AM EDT
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I know we have a SBR forum. But the tech forms are slow and you get very few responses. Plus, I'm sure there are 10 times as many people who've done this process and hang out in GD vs the SBR forms. I have my trust paper work and everything. I just need to fill it out. Since I work 3rd shift and routinely work 12 hrs, I have a small window to get this stuff done. May is coming up real fast and I'd like to get this done today, at noon'ish time. 1.) When I'm taking the trust paperwork to be notarized, are the co-trust and trustees required to be present and sign the paper in front of the notary? Or can they just sign it at home, and I, by myself can get it notarized. 2.) When the trust is notarized and I'm ready to send it with the form 1 to the ATF. Am I to also required give the trust documents to like a county clerk or some government legal entity? 3.) As far as putting money into the trust, because some states require it. Do you hold onto that money? Or is it supposed to be held by some kinda trust bank account? |
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1-All parties on the trust must sign in front of the notary.
2-In NC, no. Only trust copy that leaves my possession is the one going to the ATF. 3-All my trust purchases are made from my trust bank account. My lawyer said this was done to prevent "mingling of assets". |
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Unless very oddly drafted, the various people that are signing can sign at completely different times, in front of different notaries. The notary is essentially just validating the signatures, not that you were in the same room. Each person does need to be in front of a notary, but you don't have to be there.
Unless your trust holds charitable assets (I very much doubt it) you don't need to file it with anyone in MI. Just send a copy along with your Form 1. You certainly could open a bank account to hold trust assets, but the BATFE shouldn't care one way or another. |
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Unless very oddly drafted, the various people that are signing can sign at completely different times, in front of different notaries. The notary is essentially just validating the signatures, not that you were in the same room. Each person does need to be in front of a notary, but you don't have to be there. Unless your trust holds charitable assets (I very much doubt it) you don't need to file it with anyone in MI. Just send a copy along with your Form 1. You certainly could open a bank account to hold trust assets, but the BATFE shouldn't care one way or another. It's been a while since I set mine up, but I'm pretty sure this is correct. Most people have everyone sign at the same time just for the purpose of not having to chase down multiple notaries. |
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Quoted: Something tells me that quicken will maker or the cheap online site the trust came from doesn't have that option. Quoted: Quoted: Total dick answer, "ask the person who drew up your trust." Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Something tells me that quicken will maker or the cheap online site the trust came from doesn't have that option. That's how i got it. One was from a veteran here on arf and another gave me a link to a trust making sight they used. Uuuuugh. Guess I'll have to pay an actual lawyer in my state that i can personally visit and have this bullshit done. Very frustrated right now. ..... |
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I know we have a SBR forum. But the tech forms are slow and you get very few responses. Plus, I'm sure there are 10 times as many people who've done this process and hang out in GD vs the SBR forms. I have my trust paper work and everything. I just need to fill it out. Since I work 3rd shift and routinely work 12 hrs, I have a small window to get this stuff done. May is coming up real fast and I'd like to get this done today, at noon'ish time. 1.) When I'm taking the trust paperwork to be notarized, are the co-trust and trustees required to be present and sign the paper in front of the notary? Or can they just sign it at home, and I, by myself can get it notarized. 2.) When the trust is notarized and I'm ready to send it with the form 1 to the ATF. Am I to also required give the trust documents to like a county clerk or some government legal entity? 3.) As far as putting money into the trust, because some states require it. Do you hold onto that money? Or is it supposed to be held by some kinda trust bank account? 1. They don't even have to sign it. You're the primary on the trust. I think your signature is the only one necessary. 2. You're going to have to send the trust in to the atf with your paperwork. Make double sure that everything is there and everything is EXACT. I almost got denied once because I didn't have the word "Trust" in block 1 where it asks for who is the transferee. Also, make sure you have the list pages in with the trust and everything when you send it to ATF. 3. Dunno. My state doesn't require it except that I have to pay taxes on money made by the trust if I sell stuff off of it. Yeah right. Sell NFA stuff. |
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You can add trustees later on. You have to print out an amendment page and have the trustee sign that in front of a notary (you have to sign it as well). Then you just add it on to your trust as an amendment and file that with the ATF.
I plan on doing this with my dad and siblings whenever I get my SBR done. They can just sign it later when we find the time to go to the notary together. |
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That's how i got it. One was from a veteran here on arf and another gave me a link to a trust making sight they used. Uuuuugh. Guess I'll have to pay an actual lawyer in my state that i can personally visit and have this bullshit done. Very frustrated right now. ..... Quoted:
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Total dick answer, "ask the person who drew up your trust." Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Something tells me that quicken will maker or the cheap online site the trust came from doesn't have that option. That's how i got it. One was from a veteran here on arf and another gave me a link to a trust making sight they used. Uuuuugh. Guess I'll have to pay an actual lawyer in my state that i can personally visit and have this bullshit done. Very frustrated right now. ..... That's the best route to go. I had already set up a trust with my wife for the kids so I had already shelled out the bucks. When you eFile your Form 1, you will need the following documents scanned into an appropriate format. .pdf is fine. 1) Certificate of Compliance 2) Copy of the trust 3) Certification of Trust <-------------This is a one-page document that is drafted by the attorney and states the trust has not changed. This has to be notarized by you and other settlers of the trust (wife). I had a Form 1 kicked back because I didn't have this and the trust was several years old. BATF may not need this if the notary date on your trust is current. 4) Schedule A <---------------This is a list of assets held in the trust such as NFA items. If you don't have any NFA items in the trust, you don't need to send this in. |
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I'll just do it with CLEO sign off. I don't have kids to pass it onto and the government already has my finger prints for my time in the Army.  You don't have to pass it on to your kids. I don't have kids either. A buddy of mine since high school and his son get my shit when I'm fertilizer. Every now and then I send him a picture of the latest toy I bought for his 5 year old. He's got the best gun collection in kindergarten 
Edit: spelling |
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Quoted: Do you plan on kids? Quoted: Quoted: I'll just do it with CLEO sign off. I don't have kids to pass it onto and the government already has my finger prints for my time in the Army. Do you plan on kids? I would have liked kids, but i dont think it's in the cards. Everyone my age is all done with having kids.  |
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I'll just do it with CLEO sign off. I don't have kids to pass it onto and the government already has my finger prints for my time in the Army. The hardest part of a trust is getting everyone to sign in front of a notary. If you have a wife, she legally can not have access if you are not there. DO the trust, it takes a lot less time to get the form 1 approved. |
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Op. Another Michigan dude here. This is what I found out. I am not a lawyer, so take it for what it is worth.
My trust is set up exclusively for NFA stuff. The day I constituted it, I opened a simple checking account also in the name of the trust and deposited $300.00 in it. That account became the first item of value the trust owned. I put $300.00 in it so I could write the ATF their $200.00 check when the time came and the balance would be used to pay for the printing costs of the checks. As another poster mentioned, there is no co-mingeling of funds this way. On day one, the trust owns $300.00. 1: My trust was set up so that it was only necessary for my signature to be notarized. As the sole trustee, I then have the power reserved to me through the wording in the trust to add and remove trustees at my pleasure in the future. No where in there does it say the trustees signatures need to be notarized when they are added in. I can't see where that would hurt though. I also plan to have the trustees sign an undated letter of removal from the trust, in case they no longer wish to be a part of it for any reason. I will simply date it and they are off. 2: No. Michigan does not have a filing requirement for NFA trusts. There will be no public record of your trust. 3: See above. Not that I have a trust or any other icky gun stuff after the terrible boating accident in mom's basement!
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People get too caught up in the NFA > Trust thing. and not look at the other benefits of a trust. This is why its important to talk to a lawyer about it.
Trusts help avoid probate and protect assest. Also, when you open up a Trust bank account, each beneficiaries listed have the FDIC $250,000 protection. So, if you had 4 ppl listed, technically you could have 1m in your bank and its protected. The other benefit of using a lawyer, they always have a copy of the trust on file. |
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That's the best route to go. I had already set up a trust with my wife for the kids so I had already shelled out the bucks. When you eFile your Form 1, you will need the following documents scanned into an appropriate format. .pdf is fine. 1) Certificate of Compliance 2) Copy of the trust 3) Certification of Trust <-------------This is a one-page document that is drafted by the attorney and states the trust has not changed. This has to be notarized by you and other settlers of the trust (wife). I had a Form 1 kicked back because I didn't have this and the trust was several years old. BATF may not need this if the notary date on your trust is current. 4) Schedule A <---------------This is a list of assets held in the trust such as NFA items. If you don't have any NFA items in the trust, you don't need to send this in. Quoted:
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Total dick answer, "ask the person who drew up your trust." Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Something tells me that quicken will maker or the cheap online site the trust came from doesn't have that option. That's how i got it. One was from a veteran here on arf and another gave me a link to a trust making sight they used. Uuuuugh. Guess I'll have to pay an actual lawyer in my state that i can personally visit and have this bullshit done. Very frustrated right now. ..... That's the best route to go. I had already set up a trust with my wife for the kids so I had already shelled out the bucks. When you eFile your Form 1, you will need the following documents scanned into an appropriate format. .pdf is fine. 1) Certificate of Compliance 2) Copy of the trust 3) Certification of Trust <-------------This is a one-page document that is drafted by the attorney and states the trust has not changed. This has to be notarized by you and other settlers of the trust (wife). I had a Form 1 kicked back because I didn't have this and the trust was several years old. BATF may not need this if the notary date on your trust is current. 4) Schedule A <---------------This is a list of assets held in the trust such as NFA items. If you don't have any NFA items in the trust, you don't need to send this in. What was the "Certificate of Compliance" for? Have not seen that as a requirement for a form 1. |
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I would have liked kids, but i dont think it's in the cards. Everyone my age is all done with having kids.
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I'll just do it with CLEO sign off. I don't have kids to pass it onto and the government already has my finger prints for my time in the Army. Do you plan on kids? I would have liked kids, but i dont think it's in the cards. Everyone my age is all done with having kids.
I'm adoptable and gladly accept my role as beneficiary. 
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In NH I was able to print the trust and bring it to a Notary and get it Notarized without anyone else being there.
Then I went home and scanned it to PDF and submitted via e-Form 1. The thing about trusts is that the laws vary from state to state. Give the notary a call they may know if anyone else needs to be present besides you. |
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Quoted: The hardest part of a trust is getting everyone to sign in front of a notary. If you have a wife, she legally can not have access if you are not there. DO the trust, it takes a lot less time to get the form 1 approved. Quoted: Quoted: I'll just do it with CLEO sign off. I don't have kids to pass it onto and the government already has my finger prints for my time in the Army. The hardest part of a trust is getting everyone to sign in front of a notary. If you have a wife, she legally can not have access if you are not there. DO the trust, it takes a lot less time to get the form 1 approved. It's about to become the same, requiring a CLEO sign off anyway. |
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As long as you don't mind waiting 6-9 months+ for your can and the Cleo will sign then go that route.
Trust is way easier but you will need to have all trustees present unless you have separate pages for each trustee (that's how mine was so my wife could get it notarized on her time). I've never heard about turning your trust in to any county clerk or government entity. Also its advised to add at least a dollar to the trust but it depends on your state (mine was empty and have had zero problems so far). |
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Trustees must sign. Beneficiaries do not need to. Oregon Florida Georgia. AND it must be done in front of the notary. that is the whole point of a notary, to certify that the person signing something is the person who is signing something.. Trusts are different in every state.. in GA we just have to have it notarized and it's in effect. in some states, it must be on file with the state to be recognized. it really depends on what your rules are in MI. |
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The trust lawyer I used had a form that I stapled a dollar to and had notarized to "fund" the trust the same day the last person signed and notarized, he said so that it was funded the same day it began.
He also has a form so that if I personally buy the NFA item, I transfer the money I used into the trust, real simple form that I sign and keep with paperwork, with the receipt stapled to it. It also has a list of non-NFA stuff that you can add to the trust and have notarized, which I think will make it easier to give all my stuff to whoever I put in the will as a whole. It was worth the 300$ to have a lawyer to back it up and answer any questions about it then or in the future. If your gonna put at minimum of 1000$ of NFA toys in a trust, probably a lot more, is a few hundred bucks to have a lawyer do it such a big deal? |
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I know we have a SBR forum. But the tech forms are slow and you get very few responses. Plus, I'm sure there are 10 times as many people who've done this process and hang out in GD vs the SBR forms. I have my trust paper work and everything. I just need to fill it out. Since I work 3rd shift and routinely work 12 hrs, I have a small window to get this stuff done. May is coming up real fast and I'd like to get this done today, at noon'ish time. 1.) When I'm taking the trust paperwork to be notarized, are the co-trust and trustees required to be present and sign the paper in front of the notary? Or can they just sign it at home, and I, by myself can get it notarized. 2.) When the trust is notarized and I'm ready to send it with the form 1 to the ATF. Am I to also required give the trust documents to like a county clerk or some government legal entity? 3.) As far as putting money into the trust, because some states require it. Do you hold onto that money? Or is it supposed to be held by some kinda trust bank account? 1. We all just signed everything at home, and I brought it to my notary and he did his thing. 2. No. Just upload a PDF of it via eForms. You are using eForms, right? 3. I've never heard of this being done. |
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I know we have a SBR forum. But the tech forms are slow and you get very few responses. Plus, I'm sure there are 10 times as many people who've done this process and hang out in GD vs the SBR forms. I have my trust paper work and everything. I just need to fill it out. Since I work 3rd shift and routinely work 12 hrs, I have a small window to get this stuff done. May is coming up real fast and I'd like to get this done today, at noon'ish time. 1.) When I'm taking the trust paperwork to be notarized, are the co-trust and trustees required to be present and sign the paper in front of the notary? Or can they just sign it at home, and I, by myself can get it notarized. 2.) When the trust is notarized and I'm ready to send it with the form 1 to the ATF. Am I to also required give the trust documents to like a county clerk or some government legal entity? 3.) As far as putting money into the trust, because some states require it. Do you hold onto that money? Or is it supposed to be held by some kinda trust bank account? I just got doing this last week, so I'll answer this. 1. They have to be there. However it doesn't matter at the time when you go buy it. It matters if you die, and you want to hand it down. 2. No. Just go to a class 3 dealer, they'll fill out the paper work. You fill out the schedule A when you recieve the SBR, silencer, or whatever. It really is that simple. |
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1. We all just signed everything at home, and I brought it to my notary and he did his thing. 2. No. Just upload a PDF of it via eForms. You are using eForms, right? 3. I've never heard of this being done. Quoted:
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I know we have a SBR forum. But the tech forms are slow and you get very few responses. Plus, I'm sure there are 10 times as many people who've done this process and hang out in GD vs the SBR forms. I have my trust paper work and everything. I just need to fill it out. Since I work 3rd shift and routinely work 12 hrs, I have a small window to get this stuff done. May is coming up real fast and I'd like to get this done today, at noon'ish time. 1.) When I'm taking the trust paperwork to be notarized, are the co-trust and trustees required to be present and sign the paper in front of the notary? Or can they just sign it at home, and I, by myself can get it notarized. 2.) When the trust is notarized and I'm ready to send it with the form 1 to the ATF. Am I to also required give the trust documents to like a county clerk or some government legal entity? 3.) As far as putting money into the trust, because some states require it. Do you hold onto that money? Or is it supposed to be held by some kinda trust bank account? 1. We all just signed everything at home, and I brought it to my notary and he did his thing. 2. No. Just upload a PDF of it via eForms. You are using eForms, right? 3. I've never heard of this being done. 1.) That notary can get in big trouble for doing that. They're not suppose to stamp it without witnessing said person signing the form. For a form 4 he'll have to go to a dealer. I just go to the dealer for form 1 when I buy the lower and let them fill it out so I don't make any mistakes and see the form returned 20 times over. |
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That's how i got it. One was from a veteran here on arf and another gave me a link to a trust making sight they used. Uuuuugh. Guess I'll have to pay an actual lawyer in my state that i can personally visit and have this bullshit done. Very frustrated right now. ..... Quoted:
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Total dick answer, "ask the person who drew up your trust." Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Something tells me that quicken will maker or the cheap online site the trust came from doesn't have that option. That's how i got it. One was from a veteran here on arf and another gave me a link to a trust making sight they used. Uuuuugh. Guess I'll have to pay an actual lawyer in my state that i can personally visit and have this bullshit done. Very frustrated right now. ..... I had a lawyer for 200 bucks do it for me. All I had to do is get a notary to sign off. My wife still needs to get her part stamped, but that didn't hold me back from getting the silencer and rifle I wanted. Kids until they're of age cannot be a beneficiary. |
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My trust has a statement for the Notary to sign that makes it pretty clear that the Grantor/Trustee must sign the document in front of the Notary and that the Notary certifies that I am the actual person identified as the Grantor/Trustee on the form who actually signed the form.
I don't have any co-trustees so I didn't have to deal with issue of whether or not they sign in front of the Notary, but I would think the way the Trust is set-up should indicate whether or not that is required. There is no mechanism in my Trust for the beneficiaries to sign, so they didn't sign nor were present during the signing of the Trust. For a Trust to be valid (in my state at least) it must own some property. That is the reason for placing $1 dollar in the Trust to start it off. You can actually put anything of value in the Trust to start it off, but $1 is easy since you'll likely always have a dollar available to serve as property of the Trust. Once you get an NFA item into the Trust, you can then remove the dollar if you want and go spend it. |
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Get a trust, here is how mine went. Called lawyer on a Friday afternoon, we talked about everything I paid my $250 and he sent me all the document via email. I went to UPS with my wife and had everything notorized. Took two hours to have my trust in hand and ready to file.
It's way easier to just call a lawyer in your state and get it done the right way. |
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All should sign in front of the notary
No. Keep the original safe. No requirement to file in a court or anywhere else I stapled a 10 dollar bill to my original Schedule "A". It's still there This is accurate for Texas. Dunno about anywhere else, as I'M NOT a lawyer |
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Get a trust, here is how mine went. Called lawyer on a Friday afternoon, we talked about everything I paid my $250 and he sent me all the document via email. I went to UPS with my wife and had everything notorized. Took two hours to have my trust in hand and ready to file. It's way easier to just call a lawyer in your state and get it done the right way. This X1000. My lawyer was cheaper than yours.
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You may want to talk to someone about that. Quoted:
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Honestly, IDK. Mine didnt req that my trustees sign. You may want to talk to someone about that. My trust was done by one of the guys who started the whole NFA trust thing, Bob J. Howell, and under Florida law doesn't require trustee signatures. |
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I would have liked kids, but i dont think it's in the cards. Everyone my age is all done with having kids.
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I'll just do it with CLEO sign off. I don't have kids to pass it onto and the government already has my finger prints for my time in the Army. Do you plan on kids? I would have liked kids, but i dont think it's in the cards. Everyone my age is all done with having kids.
It's still good to have it in a trust so your wife can also take it out shooting. There also won't be possession issues. It's just better to have it in a trust. |
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What was the "Certificate of Compliance" for? Have not seen that as a requirement for a form 1. Quoted:
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Total dick answer, "ask the person who drew up your trust." Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Something tells me that quicken will maker or the cheap online site the trust came from doesn't have that option. That's how i got it. One was from a veteran here on arf and another gave me a link to a trust making sight they used. Uuuuugh. Guess I'll have to pay an actual lawyer in my state that i can personally visit and have this bullshit done. Very frustrated right now. ..... That's the best route to go. I had already set up a trust with my wife for the kids so I had already shelled out the bucks. When you eFile your Form 1, you will need the following documents scanned into an appropriate format. .pdf is fine. 1) Certificate of Compliance 2) Copy of the trust 3) Certification of Trust <-------------This is a one-page document that is drafted by the attorney and states the trust has not changed. This has to be notarized by you and other settlers of the trust (wife). I had a Form 1 kicked back because I didn't have this and the trust was several years old. BATF may not need this if the notary date on your trust is current. 4) Schedule A <---------------This is a list of assets held in the trust such as NFA items. If you don't have any NFA items in the trust, you don't need to send this in. What was the "Certificate of Compliance" for? Have not seen that as a requirement for a form 1. I thought it was required for all Form 1 and Form 4's. I had a Form 4 kicked back because they didn't have it. I've always sent it in and it's easy enough to print, fill out and scan. |
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I thought it was required for all Form 1 and Form 4's. I had a Form 4 kicked back because they didn't have it. I've always sent it in and it's easy enough to print, fill out and scan. Quoted:
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What was the "Certificate of Compliance" for? Have not seen that as a requirement for a form 1. I thought it was required for all Form 1 and Form 4's. I had a Form 4 kicked back because they didn't have it. I've always sent it in and it's easy enough to print, fill out and scan. Well I did not send one in with mine...I will see if it gets kicked back |
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Well I did not send one in with mine...I will see if it gets kicked back Quoted:
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What was the "Certificate of Compliance" for? Have not seen that as a requirement for a form 1. I thought it was required for all Form 1 and Form 4's. I had a Form 4 kicked back because they didn't have it. I've always sent it in and it's easy enough to print, fill out and scan. Well I did not send one in with mine...I will see if it gets kicked back eFile? |
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eFile? Quoted:
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What was the "Certificate of Compliance" for? Have not seen that as a requirement for a form 1. I thought it was required for all Form 1 and Form 4's. I had a Form 4 kicked back because they didn't have it. I've always sent it in and it's easy enough to print, fill out and scan. Well I did not send one in with mine...I will see if it gets kicked back eFile? Yes efile |
| Not to be an ass, but this is why I paid $600 to have an experienced lawyer who deals solely with NFA/firearms law draw up my trust. He will back up the documents he created, and he walked me through every step of the process. You get what you pay for, and when you are dealing with the feds and Obama's DOJ, it isn't an area of my life I wan't to skimp on. |