Posted: 3/4/2003 3:40:09 AM EDT
| I noticed this morning that a ship was leaving for the Persian gulf with 4000 hands on board. My question is that even though there are a lot of support people like lawndry, cooks, electricians,plumbers, etc. on this ship, Is there an armory with enough m16's to arm every soldier on the ship? |
|
No, not even close. Outside of the Marine contingent's arms, they probably only have a few hundred. Enough to arm some boarding parties, Master-At-Arm's Department and the like. If there where 4000 hands on board, it was a Carrier. A Carrier doesn't require many small arms for itself. If there is a need, they'll use the Marine contingent that is onboard, or they'll call for the Marines to be dispatched from one of the troop ships in the fleet. |
|
The Navy has no need to provide rifles for their entire crew. The vast majority of sailors never fire a single round through an M-16 in their entire career. Navy firearms training for "non-combat" nec's like me (Machinist's Mate) was limilted to firing a few magazines of .22lr through a modified >45 Colt during recruit training. Granted, that was in the early eighties, but I expect is isn't much different now. So, you really don't want squids with rifles... trust me.[;)] We just like delivering our destructive firepower from the sea and the skies. There is no need for us to get all of that sand in our skivies living in a damn tent. Hell, I was in the Persian Gulf for eight months for D. Storm, and watched the whole thing on CNN. Our aircraft were heavily involved, but our mission of running the ship's systems was the same as in peace-time. Sorry to ramble on so. Thanks to all you guys who carry the rifles. PITSNIPE OUT |
|
Quoted: The vast majority of sailors never fire a single round through an M-16 in their entire career. Navy firearms training for "non-combat" nec's like me (Machinist's Mate) was limilted to firing a few magazines of .22lr through a modified >45 Colt during recruit training. Granted, that was in the early eighties, but I expect is isn't much different now. In '77, we never touched a rifle or a pistol in Basic. We didn't even get issued rifles to drill with. Rumor was that too many of them were stolen/lost! The only shooting I did was when I went to the range and was allowed to shoot an old, beat-up .38 revolver. They eventually shut down the range as Carter was cutting budgets and they couldn't afford ammo or targets. I also got a chance to shoot skeet off the fantail of a Carrier, but I don't know if they allow that anymore. At the time, Officers were allowed to bring their personal firearms aboard and the Rec. Fund provided ammo..the only condition was that if they used Rec. Fund ammo, they had to allow us lowly enlisted men to use their shotguns. |
|
4,000 hands? Hmmm...trying to figure that one out. A carrier has a crew, including the air group of over 5,000. Also, ships don't have "soldiers" in the crew. They do have sailors and Marines though. They do NOT have sufficient weapons to arm every member of the crew. Anyway, I retired as a surface warfare officer in 1992...so my info may be bogus...but this is what I remember: All carriers have a Marine Detachment embarked as ship's company. They have their own armory that includes M-16s. I would guess that the Marines have at least one rifle aboard for each troop. They also have M-203s and M-60s. The sailors that make up the Master At Arms-security force are also armed but I suspect it's not with M-16s. The last couple of destroyers I served in in the late '80s did NOT have M-16s. We were armed with M-14s including a couple that were full-auto capable, 12ga pump shotguns, .45cal 1911A1 Colt [clone] pistols, and M-60 machine guns. This list does NOT include the .50cal M2HBs or the 25mm Bushmaster Chain Guns. They really aren't small arms. FWIW, I would have MUCH preferred to have had a few MP-5s, Colt shorty M-16s or another full-auto SMG, especially for use inside the skin of the ship. I was one of two ROs "licensed" by the USMC. I took my men to the range at Camp Pendleton as often as I could, but at best, the familiarization training was very rudimentary. My primary concern was safety. Most of the kids were not well versed in the firearms...and they scared me. All we had to do was get them used to shooting the weapons without having a ND. If I could do that and get the rounds somewhat close to the targets, I was happy. I'm not sure I'd want too many Fleet sailors mucking about with a loaded M-16. I think that small arms training for Fleet sailors is WOEFULLY INADEQUATE and must be upgraded. I'd like to see the Fleet buy lots of modern SMGs and arm and train the crews appropriately. I just hate the thought of them being outgunned and so far...they are. The best defense is to simply get underway. When you're at sea...the terror boyz can't reach you. |
|
Not much in the way of small arms training for most Navy folks. Even in bootcamp we only had to put a mag of 9mm into a big circle @15meters same with M16. Just to demonstrate you can handle the weapon without killing anybody accidentally. I think there are Navy marksmanship ribbons for rifle and pistol but I have no idea how you are awarded them. We drilled with old beat up Garands during bootcamp. I remember when I was leaving they were piling them up like cordwood outside all the divisions for disposal, there was 72 in our company and I would assume about the same in all the others. That's a lot of rifles to crunch up. I imagine they were Navy conversion 7.62 Garands? and probably collectable even in their beat up condition? Didn't know much about Garands back then other than they were heavy as hell to drill with and were used in WWII. On a tangent, I got to peek into the arms locker at the local base(Willow Grove NAS) where I swore in last week and they had a rack full of what looked like Mossberg 500's. Nothing else save a few M9's |
|
The Marine Security Detachments went away when the "special weapons" were removed from the carriers. My last ship had the Marine Security Detachment berthing space rehabed into a Ship's Training classroom. It was located next to the armory (in fact there is a locked door that lead right to the armory) and one deck below the Ship's MAA's office. The Ship's MAA force was armed with M-9's, M-16's and the Mossberg 12 gauges. The Ship's SSDF force was armed with M-9's, M-14's, M-16's, M-60's and Hand Grenandes. The Marine Air Wing Detachment did have an M16 for each of their guys, but they were not a part of Ship's security unless they volunteered for it. The first time I had to stand a hanger deck watch I was carrying an M-14. When I brought up the fact that it was pretty lame to carry an M-14 inside the skin of the ship the Leading Chief agreed with me and told me that he had ordered 100 M4's but it had been denied by the Ship's supply officer. I was my squadrons SSDF personnel, when I submitted my end of cruise report I told them they would be better off by arming the SSDF guys inside the ship with either MP-5's or M4's in 9mm rather than the M-14's or M-16's, to have the guys on the outside of the ship have a combo of M-14's and M-16's with M-203's and to have the pier watches carry shotguns and M-9's. Quoted: All carriers have a Marine Detachment embarked as ship's company. They have their own armory that includes M-16s. I would guess that the Marines have at least one rifle aboard for each troop. They also have M-203s and M-60s. The sailors that make up the Master At Arms-security force are also armed but I suspect it's not with M-16s. The last couple of destroyers I served in in the late '80s did NOT have M-16s. We were armed with M-14s including a couple that were full-auto capable, 12ga pump shotguns, .45cal 1911A1 Colt [clone] pistols, and M-60 machine guns. This list does NOT include the .50cal M2HBs or the 25mm Bushmaster Chain Guns. They really aren't small arms. FWIW, I would have MUCH preferred to have had a few MP-5s, Colt shorty M-16s or another full-auto SMG, especially for use inside the skin of the ship. I was one of two ROs "licensed" by the USMC. I took my men to the range at Camp Pendleton as often as I could, but at best, the familiarization training was very rudimentary. My primary concern was safety. Most of the kids were not well versed in the firearms...and they scared me. All we had to do was get them used to shooting the weapons without having a ND. If I could do that and get the rounds somewhat close to the targets, I was happy. I'm not sure I'd want too many Fleet sailors mucking about with a loaded M-16. I think that small arms training for Fleet sailors is WOEFULLY INADEQUATE and must be upgraded. I'd like to see the Fleet buy lots of modern SMGs and arm and train the crews appropriately. I just hate the thought of them being outgunned and so far...they are. The best defense is to simply get underway. When you're at sea...the terror boyz can't reach you. |
|
In response to what 82ndabn responded I kind a figure that once I see it on ABC that the secret is allready out the bag as far as the dunecrusers are concerned. I am sure they have plenty of contacts world wide through CNN and all there french and german buddies. Thanks for all the info. I never served in the armed forces, turned 18 in 78 and went to college and then to a small family business. I do remember coming home from school and watching the cbs evening news and wondering if one day I would be one of those soldiers in vietnam eventually. I was a little young to understand why people were not supporting our men overseas. As far as I was concerned at the time it was US against THEM. Today I feel the same way. It is US against THEM doesn't matter what anyone says we are in this together and if the boss says go fight we go. If it gets really bad and they need a 43 year old I can shoot, do electrical work, or weld. Later, Time to get to work |