Posted: 3/26/2015 1:17:53 PM EDT
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I am putting in a new A/C soon because I don't want to drop $800 to repair the evaporator coil on a 17 year old A/C. The guy I found to do the work is a contractor who builds houses and apartments. He claims that he's seen a higher rate of failure among A/Cs that use R410a refrigerant as opposed to R22 and he claims it's likely because of 410a running at much higher pressures.
I want to know if anyone else can tell me if there's any truth in this. Secondary question, if I replace my system with a 410a unit, I understand that the copper line for refrigerant is supposed to brazed and not soldered, due again to higher refrigerant pressures. Is there a way I can tell by looking if my lineset is brazed or soldered? |
5 years ago I bought a $8000 high SEER unit. It's got a leak in the evaporator and I'm waiting on the tech to let me know how much it's going to cost me. Parts are covered, but the labor and the coolant are liable to be over $1500. What a fucking awesome "investment" I've made. 
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5 years ago I bought a $8000 high SEER unit. It's got a leak in the evaporator and I'm waiting on the tech to let me know how much it's going to cost me. Parts are covered, but the labor and the coolant are liable to be over $1500. What a fucking awesome "investment" I've made. Damn, that sucks buddy. Evap coil leak is exactly what happened to my old piece of crap. But at least it made it 17 years first. |
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Quoted: I am putting in a new A/C soon because I don't want to drop $800 to repair the evaporator coil on a 17 year old A/C. The guy I found to do the work is a contractor who builds houses and apartments. He claims that he's seen a higher rate of failure among A/Cs that use R410a refrigerant as opposed to R22 and he claims it's likely because of 410a running at much higher pressures. I want to know if anyone else can tell me if there's any truth in this. Secondary question, if I replace my system with a 410a unit, I understand that the copper line for refrigerant is supposed to brazed and not soldered, due again to higher refrigerant pressures. Is there a way I can tell by looking if my lineset is brazed or soldered? |
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Quoted: 5 years ago I bought a $8000 high SEER unit. It's got a leak in the evaporator and I'm waiting on the tech to let me know how much it's going to cost me. Parts are covered, but the labor and the coolant are liable to be over $1500. What a fucking awesome "investment" I've made. |
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That's bullshit. The coil is free and there isn't any recovery to be done. It's a three to four hour job. Even with refrigerant it shouldn't be 600-700 dollars. That's $100 hour and the rest is materials and equipment usage. Quoted:
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5 years ago I bought a $8000 high SEER unit. It's got a leak in the evaporator and I'm waiting on the tech to let me know how much it's going to cost me. Parts are covered, but the labor and the coolant are liable to be over $1500. What a fucking awesome "investment" I've made. I have to wonder if his unit uses R-22 with those quoted prices. We have two server room units at my building that are 5 years old and use R-22 instead of 410-A. They must have found these before they made the switch over. |
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As far as the line set goes if anyone is using soft solder to join the copper together it isn't being done correctly ( IMHO). Quoted:
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I am putting in a new A/C soon because I don't want to drop $800 to repair the evaporator coil on a 17 year old A/C. The guy I found to do the work is a contractor who builds houses and apartments. He claims that he's seen a higher rate of failure among A/Cs that use R410a refrigerant as opposed to R22 and he claims it's likely because of 410a running at much higher pressures. I want to know if anyone else can tell me if there's any truth in this. Secondary question, if I replace my system with a 410a unit, I understand that the copper line for refrigerant is supposed to brazed and not soldered, due again to higher refrigerant pressures. Is there a way I can tell by looking if my lineset is brazed or soldered? Is there any way I can tell by visual inspection? Do you have any feel for the efficiency of 410 vs 22 units, in terms of how much electricity they consume to do the same amount of cooling? |
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I have to wonder if his unit uses R-22 with those quoted prices. We have two server room units at my building that are 5 years old and use R-22 instead of 410-A. They must have found these before they made the switch over. Quoted:
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5 years ago I bought a $8000 high SEER unit. It's got a leak in the evaporator and I'm waiting on the tech to let me know how much it's going to cost me. Parts are covered, but the labor and the coolant are liable to be over $1500. What a fucking awesome "investment" I've made. I have to wonder if his unit uses R-22 with those quoted prices. We have two server room units at my building that are 5 years old and use R-22 instead of 410-A. They must have found these before they made the switch over. I'm not sure what it uses. But I know it leaked all the coolant out. The guy gave me a ballpark, he's checking on the labor warranty, so it could be less. Maybe I should get a second opinion. What do y'all think? |
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Quoted: I have to wonder if his unit uses R-22 with those quoted prices. We have two server room units at my building that are 5 years old and use R-22 instead of 410-A. They must have found these before they made the switch over. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 5 years ago I bought a $8000 high SEER unit. It's got a leak in the evaporator and I'm waiting on the tech to let me know how much it's going to cost me. Parts are covered, but the labor and the coolant are liable to be over $1500. What a fucking awesome "investment" I've made. I have to wonder if his unit uses R-22 with those quoted prices. We have two server room units at my building that are 5 years old and use R-22 instead of 410-A. They must have found these before they made the switch over. |
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Quoted: Is there any way I can tell by visual inspection? Do you have any feel for the efficiency of 410 vs 22 units, in terms of how much electricity they consume to do the same amount of cooling? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I am putting in a new A/C soon because I don't want to drop $800 to repair the evaporator coil on a 17 year old A/C. The guy I found to do the work is a contractor who builds houses and apartments. He claims that he's seen a higher rate of failure among A/Cs that use R410a refrigerant as opposed to R22 and he claims it's likely because of 410a running at much higher pressures. I want to know if anyone else can tell me if there's any truth in this. Secondary question, if I replace my system with a 410a unit, I understand that the copper line for refrigerant is supposed to brazed and not soldered, due again to higher refrigerant pressures. Is there a way I can tell by looking if my lineset is brazed or soldered? Is there any way I can tell by visual inspection? Do you have any feel for the efficiency of 410 vs 22 units, in terms of how much electricity they consume to do the same amount of cooling? |
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410 has been in use for over 10 years. R-22 prices have risen again in he last 6-9 months. It's still seems high. Quoted:
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5 years ago I bought a $8000 high SEER unit. It's got a leak in the evaporator and I'm waiting on the tech to let me know how much it's going to cost me. Parts are covered, but the labor and the coolant are liable to be over $1500. What a fucking awesome "investment" I've made. I have to wonder if his unit uses R-22 with those quoted prices. We have two server room units at my building that are 5 years old and use R-22 instead of 410-A. They must have found these before they made the switch over. What's the current prices on R-22? My old Tempstar unit uses R-22 which is the main reason I bought the jug of 22. And yes I carry a Universal refrigerant license. So there was nothing shady or illegal when I bought it. |
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Quoted: What's the current prices on R-22? My old Tempstar unit uses R-22 which is the main reason I bought the jug of 22. And yes I carry a Universal refrigerant license. So there was nothing shady or illegal when I bought it. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 5 years ago I bought a $8000 high SEER unit. It's got a leak in the evaporator and I'm waiting on the tech to let me know how much it's going to cost me. Parts are covered, but the labor and the coolant are liable to be over $1500. What a fucking awesome "investment" I've made. I have to wonder if his unit uses R-22 with those quoted prices. We have two server room units at my building that are 5 years old and use R-22 instead of 410-A. They must have found these before they made the switch over. What's the current prices on R-22? My old Tempstar unit uses R-22 which is the main reason I bought the jug of 22. And yes I carry a Universal refrigerant license. So there was nothing shady or illegal when I bought it.  By all the 22 you want. My best customers do their own repairs first! Prices in the metro atl are around 325 for 30 pounds. With that being said retail prices are anywhere from 15-30 per pound just depends on which contractor and which customer. |
| The reliability issue may be problems with TXV's. We have had problems with the TXV not metering. This has been traced back to the compressor manufacture using a different rust inhibitor in the compressor shells. It can make it through the filter drier and then turns to goo at the TXV needle eventually causing no/sluggish operation. I was told somewhere between 1.3-1.8 million compressors affected before it was figured out. |
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The reliability issue may be problems with TXV's. We have had problems with the TXV not metering. This has been traced back to the compressor manufacture using a different rust inhibitor in the compressor shells. It can make it through the filter drier and then turns to goo at the TXV needle eventually causing no/sluggish operation. I was told somewhere between 1.3-1.8 million compressors affected before it was figured out. Is this a problem I should expect to see in a new R410 unit? |
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No hard numbers to back it up. The main difference between the two is 410a equipment is larger. The coils are larger to get the efficiency rating they want. The compressor and fans still run the same, unless yours has inverter driven comps and fans I'm not sure you're going to save any money. Quoted:
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I am putting in a new A/C soon because I don't want to drop $800 to repair the evaporator coil on a 17 year old A/C. The guy I found to do the work is a contractor who builds houses and apartments. He claims that he's seen a higher rate of failure among A/Cs that use R410a refrigerant as opposed to R22 and he claims it's likely because of 410a running at much higher pressures. I want to know if anyone else can tell me if there's any truth in this. Secondary question, if I replace my system with a 410a unit, I understand that the copper line for refrigerant is supposed to brazed and not soldered, due again to higher refrigerant pressures. Is there a way I can tell by looking if my lineset is brazed or soldered? Is there any way I can tell by visual inspection? Do you have any feel for the efficiency of 410 vs 22 units, in terms of how much electricity they consume to do the same amount of cooling? So, cost wise for me it's a trade off between a cheaper unit with expensive refrigerant that is no longer produced (R22) or a more expensive unit that runs on cheaper refrigerant (R410). The up front cost is probably a wash, or close enough to a wash to not matter. On some level I will feel like an ass if I ask the contractor to install a 410 unit. He really doesn't want to and is convinced the 22 units are better, and the guy is doing me a huge favor by installing a unit for about half price because he's a friend of the family. I figure some of that might be that he's been working with R22 a/c for about 30 years and knows that system really well. An A/C generally lasts, what, 12-15 years, usually a major repair will be involved somewhere around the 8 to 10 year time frame, assuming it isn't a lemon and the installer did the work properly. Since I'm getting this done for half normal cost, if the thing develops a leak in 6 or 7 years and I absolutely can't get R22 at that point (or if it completely takes a shit for whatever reason and is scrapped), I could replace again and my yearly cost would be the same as paying normal price for a unit that lasted 12-15 years. Maybe my own personal risk with R22 isn't as high as it might be in other situations. Also, can visual inspection determine if my copper tubing has been brazed or soldered? I'm kind of curious to know. |
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5 years ago I bought a $8000 high SEER unit. It's got a leak in the evaporator and I'm waiting on the tech to let me know how much it's going to cost me. Parts are covered, but the labor and the coolant are liable to be over $1500. What a fucking awesome "investment" I've made. A Hvac system isn't really a investment any more than buying a car to drive daily. It's going to wear out eventually and you are going to incur maintenance costs. Do you expect to not have maintenance costs on a vehicle? Edit, you are paying to much for the repair at 1500. |
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If its a brand spanking new unit you'll be ok. This sticking txv problem has been going on for about 2 years. Sporlan spent a bundle having the warrentee TXV's checked out. They sent samples to an independant lab for analyzing. The compressor MFG is Copeland.
Sorry not up on how to "box" the previous replies to provide context to my post. |
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If its a brand spanking new unit you'll be ok. This sticking txv problem has been going on for about 2 years. Sporlan spent a bundle having the warrentee TXV's checked out. They sent samples to an independant lab for analyzing. The compressor MFG is Copeland. Sorry not up on how to "box" the previous replies to provide context to my post. Even if you get a unit that had that issue its easily fixed with an additive. |
This is what I'm facing just today. Of course the guy that did my factory warranty repair on a busted factory fitting said it was most likely caused by "careless" installation. I pointed out that he was the one that did the installation. 
None of this matters because the fucking green weenie tree hugging whale humpers that pushed that expense ass new refrigerant on us (that can suck on a box of dicks by the way) costs me out the ass anytime something "fails". It's upwards of $800 in refrigerant anytime they have to do anything to this unit. Time after time after time! Meanwhile I have some units on the shop that are older than Mathusela still happily cranking along even though they look like they will literally vibrate apart. Quoted:
The reliability issue may be problems with TXV's. We have had problems with the TXV not metering. This has been traced back to the compressor manufacture using a different rust inhibitor in the compressor shells. It can make it through the filter drier and then turns to goo at the TXV needle eventually causing no/sluggish operation. I was told somewhere between 1.3-1.8 million compressors affected before it was figured out. |
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A Hvac system isn't really a investment any more than buying a car to drive daily. It's going to wear out eventually and you are going to incur maintenance costs. Do you expect to not have maintenance costs on a vehicle? Edit, you are paying to much for the repair at 1500. Quoted:
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5 years ago I bought a $8000 high SEER unit. It's got a leak in the evaporator and I'm waiting on the tech to let me know how much it's going to cost me. Parts are covered, but the labor and the coolant are liable to be over $1500. What a fucking awesome "investment" I've made. A Hvac system isn't really a investment any more than buying a car to drive daily. It's going to wear out eventually and you are going to incur maintenance costs. Do you expect to not have maintenance costs on a vehicle? Edit, you are paying to much for the repair at 1500. Sure I expect maintenance, that's why I pay the HVAC guys $99 bucks to come out and check the unit every year. What I don't expect is for an $8000 piece of equipment less than 5 years old to require a $1500 repair on it. I could have bought the $4000 unit and I would have expected a repair within 5 years. Guess what I'd still be ahead.
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I have another question about load calc.
I haven't had one done. I am running on the assumption that 2.5 ton is the appropriate size for my home. My current 17 year old unit is 2.5 ton, and it seems sized properly. That is, it doesn't run constantly, it can keep the house cool on the hottest days, and it keeps the humidity quite low. My question is, can I replace like for like (ie, if my 17 year old 2.5 ton is correctly sized, will a new 2.5 ton unit still be correct)? |
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Quoted: I have another question about load calc. I haven't had one done. I am running on the assumption that 2.5 ton is the appropriate size for my home. My current 17 year old unit is 2.5 ton, and it seems sized properly. That is, it doesn't run constantly, it can keep the house cool on the hottest days, and it keeps the humidity quite low. My question is, can I replace like for like (ie, if my 17 year old 2.5 ton is correctly sized, will a new 2.5 ton unit still be correct)? |
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Even if you get a unit that had that issue its easily fixed with an additive. Quoted:
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If its a brand spanking new unit you'll be ok. This sticking txv problem has been going on for about 2 years. Sporlan spent a bundle having the warrentee TXV's checked out. They sent samples to an independant lab for analyzing. The compressor MFG is Copeland. Sorry not up on how to "box" the previous replies to provide context to my post. Even if you get a unit that had that issue its easily fixed with an additive. Lot's of guys who have tried the additive are going on there 3rd and even 4th TXV replacement. The additive (while running discharge pressure up to something like 500psi) is nothing but snake oil. |
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Quoted: Yep, 2-1/2 tons is 2-1/2 tons. Quoted: Quoted: I have another question about load calc. I haven't had one done. I am running on the assumption that 2.5 ton is the appropriate size for my home. My current 17 year old unit is 2.5 ton, and it seems sized properly. That is, it doesn't run constantly, it can keep the house cool on the hottest days, and it keeps the humidity quite low. My question is, can I replace like for like (ie, if my 17 year old 2.5 ton is correctly sized, will a new 2.5 ton unit still be correct)? |
| Planned obsolescence is what is going on with refrigerants. A on patent chemical cost more than a off patent chemical so lets get the fucking tree huggers to get the EPA to declare our product ozone depleting every 20 years or so we can have a new refrigerant that is on patent. We can make it until the patent runs out and sell it for a higher price, when it runs out we have it declared ozone depleting and come up with a new less ozone depleting product that doesn't work as well. Now we can sell our stockpile for twice what we used to get for it and we can also recycle the old gas and sell it for more since people that can't afford a new system will need gas for their old system. If you want a more energy efficient system you have to get one with a newer refrigerant gas in it. This entire thing is a fucking scam to sell new ac units by making the older ones obsolete. |
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Planned obsolescence is what is going on with refrigerants. A on patent chemical cost more than a off patent chemical so lets get the fucking tree huggers to get the EPA to declare our product ozone depleting every 20 years or so we can have a new refrigerant that is on patent. We can make it until the patent runs out and sell it for a higher price, when it runs out we have it declared ozone depleting and come up with a new less ozone depleting product that doesn't work as well. Now we can sell our stockpile for twice what we used to get for it and we can also recycle the old gas and sell it for more since people that can't afford a new system will need gas for their old system. If you want a more energy efficient system you have to get one with a newer refrigerant gas in it. This entire thing is a fucking scam to sell new ac units by making the older ones obsolete. I have been told that the refrigerant manufacturers like DuPont and Aspen have refrigerant blends sitting on the shelves just waiting to spring up as the next best thing. I fully agree with your assessment. |
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I have been told that the refrigerant manufacturers like DuPont and Aspen have refrigerant blends sitting on the shelves just waiting to spring up as the next best thing. I fully agree with your assessment. Quoted:
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Planned obsolescence is what is going on with refrigerants. A on patent chemical cost more than a off patent chemical so lets get the fucking tree huggers to get the EPA to declare our product ozone depleting every 20 years or so we can have a new refrigerant that is on patent. We can make it until the patent runs out and sell it for a higher price, when it runs out we have it declared ozone depleting and come up with a new less ozone depleting product that doesn't work as well. Now we can sell our stockpile for twice what we used to get for it and we can also recycle the old gas and sell it for more since people that can't afford a new system will need gas for their old system. If you want a more energy efficient system you have to get one with a newer refrigerant gas in it. This entire thing is a fucking scam to sell new ac units by making the older ones obsolete. I have been told that the refrigerant manufacturers like DuPont and Aspen have refrigerant blends sitting on the shelves just waiting to spring up as the next best thing. I fully agree with your assessment. That's a hell of an awesome scam they've got going there 
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