[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Stephen Hawking Thread - Continued. (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 1/14/2015 5:22:23 PM EDT
OP requested that the last thread be locked.
It was quite an interesting discussion for those involved and saw some very civil and considered points raised by the participants. Thought some might like to carry it on. Here is the link to the old thread if people would like to carry on where they left off. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1705449_Mods_Lock_Please.html&page=29 |
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I don't know why I keep sticking my face in the punching machine, but here it is...  Meh, you punch back well enough.  So where were we?I think Ninelivez made a good post that might be a good starting point: As an atheist, I have always been respectful (most atheists are actually, its the militant anti-theists you confuse us with). I spent a lot of years looking for my faith and it always came back to the fact (for me anyway) that there are no answers. But because I am still curious, I ask questions that some seem to think are attacking their faith, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. One big question that has never been answered satisfactorily is, whose right?
Islam claims to be the true religion, Christianity says Islam is wrong and its the one one true religion. The Catholics say the protestants are going to hell, the protestants say the Lutherans are condemned to damnation and so on and so on. So after looking at many different religions and sects, I have more unanswered questions then I started with. With everyone so sure the other is wrong, who does that leave to be right? So I remain an atheist, not because I hate religion or those who believe, but because there are no definable answers that I can see. I'm not saying I'm opposed to the possibility that there might be some kind of a "God" if you will, but its an abstract thought to me (as in "Maybe we are the equivalent to an amoeba to a smarter, larger race and this is a science experiment."). If I were to concede there was a "God", Omniquantism is tho only logical answere, because I can't see how only one group can be right when so many of the tenants are so close. ..... but I am open to suggestion. 
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One thing I'd like to bring forward here is the idea that someone else posted very eloquently, that I'll springboard off of:
Science studies the mechanics of the universe. It's for figuring out how things work. Religion is a philosophical study. It's the guidelines for its adherents to live by. I genuinely see no conflict between the two unless someone makes it so. |
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Has anyone discussed whether he is a legitimate Top Tier Scientist, or whether his fame is mostly a result of affirmative action/pity? I was actually just about to ask that. I have no ill feelings toward the man and have pity for him with his horrible physical ailment. But I have read that some scientists feel that his reputation is greatly exaggerated. Does anyone know anything about this? |
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One thing I'd like to bring forward here is the idea that someone else posted very eloquently, that I'll springboard off of: Science studies the mechanics of the universe. It's for figuring out how things work. Religion is a philosophical study. It's the guidelines for its adherents to live by. I genuinely see no conflict between the two unless someone makes it so. Pretty much how I see it. This also sets out the basis by which the religious and scientific beliefs can be held by one person. It is entirely possible for the two approaches to coexist without conflict. What I find interesting is how there are people on both sides of the debate who see in more absolute terms. |
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I was actually just about to ask that. I have no ill feelings toward the man and have pity for him with his horrible physical ailment. But I have read that some scientists feel that his reputation is greatly exaggerated. Does anyone know anything about this? Quoted:
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Has anyone discussed whether he is a legitimate Top Tier Scientist, or whether his fame is mostly a result of affirmative action/pity? I was actually just about to ask that. I have no ill feelings toward the man and have pity for him with his horrible physical ailment. But I have read that some scientists feel that his reputation is greatly exaggerated. Does anyone know anything about this? FWIW, I've read that as well... |
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One thing I'd like to bring forward here is the idea that someone else posted very eloquently, that I'll springboard off of: Science studies the mechanics of the universe. It's for figuring out how things work. Religion is a philosophical study. It's the guidelines for its adherents to live by. I genuinely see no conflict between the two unless someone makes it so. I think the primary perpetrators of instigating conflict, albeit indirectly, are the pseudo-scientists of Creationism. Quite a few atheists (anti-theists) are douche nozzles, but I think a lot of their derision is justified by the ridiculous farce of the literal interpretation of the old testament. Just remember that not all Christians believe that at some point every animal in the world boarded one boat. |
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I typed this out in the other thread right as it was locked so I'm reposting it here: I have a few questions for the Evangelicals in this thread. Not trying to troll or be a smart ass, but questions about a few things in Christianity that never made sense to me (and therefore contributed to my lack of faith or belief): 1. "Jesus died to save us from our sins" : I thought that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost were one in the same. So how does this work? Did God supposedly masquerade as a human to get some kicks? Why should we think that Jesus was in pain while being executed, being that he's a supreme being and has magical powers? 2. "God sacraficed his only son for us": Whats so special about God sacrificing his only son (assuming that Jesus is a separate entity than God), while thousands upon thousands of Americans (and other nationalities) have sacrificed their only son for their country? Why is God doing this supposed to be some super special world changing event? And besides, he didn't really sacrifice him, knowing that he was going to resurrect him in a few days and then beam him back up to heaven a little later. It would be nice if a mother could know that about her only son who was killed in WWI, WWII, Vietnam, OIF, OEF, etc... 3. Your faith versus other religions: What makes you so sure that your faith is the right one compared to all of the other religions out there? How can you easily dismiss Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc as being bogus, while being so certain about your beliefs? Seems like God made some mistakes if he's so concerned with being worshiped and caring for his people if he made a massive amount of people in the world not worship him. Just doesn't make any sense to me. 4. The Devil : If God is all knowing and all powerful why does he supposedly allow the Devil to have so much influence on the world and run roughshod on him? No other self respecting leader (especially an all powerful one) would allow his enemy to run around totally unchecked like that. Why doesn't he just kick the Devil's ass and do away with him once and for all? No I'm not trolling, I'm just curious to hear a few answers to some of the things I find ridiculous about the Bible. |
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I think the primary perpetrators of instigating conflict, albeit indirectly, are the pseudo-scientists of Creationism. Quite a few atheists (anti-theists) are douche nozzles, but I think a lot of their derision is justified by the ridiculous farce of the literal interpretation of the old testament. Just remember that not all Christians believe that at some point every animal in the world boarded one boat. And just remember that many millions of do. 
I don't mind if you think it is not true. It doesn't hurt me one bit if you think that. But I believe every word from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21. I even believe the maps in the back and I believe my cover is made of Genuine Leather. I believe the Bible.
Believe as you please. |
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Has anyone discussed whether he is a legitimate Top Tier Scientist, or whether his fame is mostly a result of affirmative action/pity? Good point. My view is that as a man who is most definitely an acclaimed scientist, his fame (for whatever reason) has thrust him into the limelight and people listen to what he has to say. The fact he does not believe in God personally is actually not that important - it is merely an opinion that he has expressed. He has never once stated that he can prove God does not exist. I think it could also be suggested that the Hawking's engagement with the religious community was something that started mutually. His own interests in the physics and chemistry of the origins of our universe and the life within it were bound to attract interest from parts of the religious community who perhaps felt that his theories and discoveries were (albeit unintentionally) possibly undermining their religious beliefs. It was also inevitable that others have used his works to further an atheist or anti-theist perspective, which has also helped thrust him into the firing line of those concerned about the potential implications for religion. What he has done is simultaneously challenged the scientific community and the religious community into a discussion and debate about where the lines between theology and science merge and how they can possibly be blurred by the current gaps in our knowledge. This can only be a good thing IMO and as a result Hawking's status as a Top Tier Scientist (to use your phrase) can be probably be justified because he is working at the front line of discovery and he is presenting his own works on scientific Getting people to talk about the issue is the first step towards greater understanding and discovery. |
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I typed this out in the other thread right as it was locked so I'm reposting it here: I have a few questions for the Evangelicals in this thread. Not trying to troll or be a smart ass, but questions about a few things in Christianity that never made sense to me (and therefore contributed to my lack of faith or belief): 1. "Jesus died to save us from our sins" : I thought that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost were one in the same. So how does this work? Did God supposedly masquerade as a human to get some kicks? Why should we think that Jesus was in pain while being executed, being that he's a supreme being and has magical powers? 2. "God sacraficed his only son for us": Whats so special about God sacrificing his only son (assuming that Jesus is a separate entity than God), while thousands upon thousands of Americans (and other nationalities) have sacrificed their only son for their country? Why is God doing this supposed to be some super special world changing event? And besides, he didn't really sacrifice him, knowing that he was going to resurrect him in a few days and then beam him back up to heaven a little later. It would be nice if a mother could know that about her only son who was killed in WWI, WWII, Vietnam, OIF, OEF, etc... 3. Your faith versus other religions: What makes you so sure that your faith is the right one compared to all of the other religions out there? How can you easily dismiss Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc as being bogus, while being so certain about your beliefs? Seems like God made some mistakes if he's so concerned with being worshiped and caring for his people if he made a massive amount of people in the world not worship him. Just doesn't make any sense to me. 4. The Devil : If God is all knowing and all powerful why does he supposedly allow the Devil to have so much influence on the world and run roughshod on him? No other self respecting leader (especially an all powerful one) would allow his enemy to run around totally unchecked like that. Why doesn't he just kick the Devil's ass and do away with him once and for all? No I'm not trolling, I'm just curious to hear a few answers to some of the things I find ridiculous about the Bible. I'd buy the first round, maybe two to shoot the shit and have this discussion with you sone lazy afternoon my freind. |
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Quoted: I was actually just about to ask that. I have no ill feelings toward the man and have pity for him with his horrible physical ailment. But I have read that some scientists feel that his reputation is greatly exaggerated. Does anyone know anything about this? Quoted: Quoted: Has anyone discussed whether he is a legitimate Top Tier Scientist, or whether his fame is mostly a result of affirmative action/pity? I was actually just about to ask that. I have no ill feelings toward the man and have pity for him with his horrible physical ailment. But I have read that some scientists feel that his reputation is greatly exaggerated. Does anyone know anything about this? His work showed that the universe was not static like previously believed. He was able to show the universe was expanding and that there was a big bang. |
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FWIW, I've read that as well... Quoted:
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Has anyone discussed whether he is a legitimate Top Tier Scientist, or whether his fame is mostly a result of affirmative action/pity? I was actually just about to ask that. I have no ill feelings toward the man and have pity for him with his horrible physical ailment. But I have read that some scientists feel that his reputation is greatly exaggerated. Does anyone know anything about this? FWIW, I've read that as well... His papers were drawing attention long before his physical condition deteriorated. And with Hawking Radiation and such, yeah, I'm going to say that his theories stand on their own merit. |
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And just remember that many millions of do.
I don't mind if you think it is not true. It doesn't hurt me one bit if you think that. But I believe every word from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21. I even believe the maps in the back and I believe my cover is made of Genuine Leather. I believe the Bible.
Believe as you please. Quoted:
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I think the primary perpetrators of instigating conflict, albeit indirectly, are the pseudo-scientists of Creationism. Quite a few atheists (anti-theists) are douche nozzles, but I think a lot of their derision is justified by the ridiculous farce of the literal interpretation of the old testament. Just remember that not all Christians believe that at some point every animal in the world boarded one boat. And just remember that many millions of do.
I don't mind if you think it is not true. It doesn't hurt me one bit if you think that. But I believe every word from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21. I even believe the maps in the back and I believe my cover is made of Genuine Leather. I believe the Bible.
Believe as you please. I can't tell if your implicitly attacking my faith but regardless my point is this: There are lots of things in the old testament that could not have happened given a literal interpretation. Maybe your faith is just stronger than mine, but I don't accept things that contradict facts. ETA: some stuff |
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4. The Devil : If God is all knowing and all powerful why does he supposedly allow the Devil to have so much influence on the world and run roughshod on him? No other self respecting leader (especially an all powerful one) would allow his enemy to run around totally unchecked like that. Why doesn't he just kick the Devil's ass and do away with him once and for all? I'm only going to address this one because I have a reasonably simple answer. Free will. God wants you to choose him. If he didn't want that, then we'd all be angels serving in Heaven and our existence on earth would never have happened. And yes, I recognize that my answer will be torn to pieces by atheists, and religious folks alike. But that's what I believe and have been taught. |
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I typed this out in the other thread right as it was locked so I'm reposting it here: I have a few questions for the Evangelicals in this thread. Not trying to troll or be a smart ass, but questions about a few things in Christianity that never made sense to me (and therefore contributed to my lack of faith or belief): 1. "Jesus died to save us from our sins" : I thought that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost were one in the same. So how does this work? Did God supposedly masquerade as a human to get some kicks? Why should we think that Jesus was in pain while being executed, being that he's a supreme being and has magical powers? 2. "God sacraficed his only son for us": Whats so special about God sacrificing his only son (assuming that Jesus is a separate entity than God), while thousands upon thousands of Americans (and other nationalities) have sacrificed their only son for their country? Why is God doing this supposed to be some super special world changing event? And besides, he didn't really sacrifice him, knowing that he was going to resurrect him in a few days and then beam him back up to heaven a little later. It would be nice if a mother could know that about her only son who was killed in WWI, WWII, Vietnam, OIF, OEF, etc... 3. Your faith versus other religions: What makes you so sure that your faith is the right one compared to all of the other religions out there? How can you easily dismiss Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc as being bogus, while being so certain about your beliefs? Seems like God made some mistakes if he's so concerned with being worshiped and caring for his people if he made a massive amount of people in the world not worship him. Just doesn't make any sense to me. 4. The Devil : If God is all knowing and all powerful why does he supposedly allow the Devil to have so much influence on the world and run roughshod on him? No other self respecting leader (especially an all powerful one) would allow his enemy to run around totally unchecked like that. Why doesn't he just kick the Devil's ass and do away with him once and for all? No I'm not trolling, I'm just curious to hear a few answers to some of the things I find ridiculous about the Bible. I'll take a crack at number 1 and 2. Which are really the same thing. You can't compare God with humans, think of it like sim city, at least in the difference between God and things he created, humans. Jesus/ God wanted to experience what humans feel, that's why he did I, He is absolutely perfect, the fact he endured so much while being completely innocent is mind boggling. Think infinitely perfect, and he endured some of the worst this world has to offer. As the God Jesus, Holy ghost thing, you can't think of them like people, I think its a poor try to explain something that really no human can understand. 4. Again, you can't think of God like a person. You imagine people getting killed as bad and a devil thing, that's a pretty human perspective with alot of assumptions. We literally can't understand God, I know that sounds convient, but make the assumption that God is all knowing and all powerful, even more than we can fathom, now you try to be the same and look at the problem, see if you can see it from his perspective. |
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I'm only going to address this one because I have a reasonably simple answer. Free will. God wants you to choose him. If he didn't want that, then we'd all be angels serving in Heaven and our existence on earth would never have happened. And yes, I recognize that my answer will be torn to pieces by atheists, and religious folks alike. But that's what I believe and have been taught. Quoted:
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4. The Devil : If God is all knowing and all powerful why does he supposedly allow the Devil to have so much influence on the world and run roughshod on him? No other self respecting leader (especially an all powerful one) would allow his enemy to run around totally unchecked like that. Why doesn't he just kick the Devil's ass and do away with him once and for all? I'm only going to address this one because I have a reasonably simple answer. Free will. God wants you to choose him. If he didn't want that, then we'd all be angels serving in Heaven and our existence on earth would never have happened. And yes, I recognize that my answer will be torn to pieces by atheists, and religious folks alike. But that's what I believe and have been taught. I won't be tearing it apart. |
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I can't tell if your implicitly attacking my faith but regardless my point is this: Quoted:
I can't tell if your implicitly attacking my faith but regardless my point is this: Why would you think that? I simply stated what I believe.
There are lots of things in the old testament that could not have happened given a literal interpretation. Maybe your faith is just stronger than mine, but I don't accept things that contradict facts.
ETA: some stuff You are correct that there are many, many things in both the Old and New Testament that are "impossible" literally. But I serve a God of miracles. He is Sovereign and does what ever He pleases.
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Quoted: I can't tell if your implicitly attacking my faith but regardless my point is this: There are lots of things in the old testament that could not have happened. Maybe your faith is just stronger than my, but I don't accept things that contradict facts. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I think the primary perpetrators of instigating conflict, albeit indirectly, are the pseudo-scientists of Creationism. Quite a few atheists (anti-theists) are douche nozzles, but I think a lot of their derision is justified by the ridiculous farce of the literal interpretation of the old testament. Just remember that not all Christians believe that at some point every animal in the world boarded one boat. And just remember that many millions of do. I don't mind if you think it is not true. It doesn't hurt me one bit if you think that. But I believe every word from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21. I even believe the maps in the back and I believe my cover is made of Genuine Leather. I believe the Bible. Believe as you please. I can't tell if your implicitly attacking my faith but regardless my point is this: There are lots of things in the old testament that could not have happened. Maybe your faith is just stronger than my, but I don't accept things that contradict facts. Something I have thought about off and on, how do explain a complicated idea to a child? When a 5yo asks why a plane flies, you would say the air pushes up on the wings, and not a long detailed explanation involving lift, drag etc. So what if God gave men a simple answer to match their intellect at that particular time? A simple person could understand and accept that God created the Universe in 7 days, where as the idea of cooling clouds of matter, billions of years etc would be unfathomable. Then just as a child matures and learns so did men. We became advanced enough to start understanding the staggering complexity of the Universe. |
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If I have to use a label I guess you can consider me an agnostic. I don't know the meaning of life or the origin of the universe and I'm comfortable with that. I can't change it. And my energy is better spent worrying about other things I can't change.
It's really hard to make a case for God when you see things like the juggalo baby murderer thread. If God created man in his own image then God is a lying, murdering scumbag. |
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I'm only going to address this one because I have a reasonably simple answer. Free will. God wants you to choose him. If he didn't want that, then we'd all be angels serving in Heaven and our existence on earth would never have happened. And yes, I recognize that my answer will be torn to pieces by atheists, and religious folks alike. But that's what I believe and have been taught. Quoted:
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4. The Devil : If God is all knowing and all powerful why does he supposedly allow the Devil to have so much influence on the world and run roughshod on him? No other self respecting leader (especially an all powerful one) would allow his enemy to run around totally unchecked like that. Why doesn't he just kick the Devil's ass and do away with him once and for all? I'm only going to address this one because I have a reasonably simple answer. Free will. God wants you to choose him. If he didn't want that, then we'd all be angels serving in Heaven and our existence on earth would never have happened. And yes, I recognize that my answer will be torn to pieces by atheists, and religious folks alike. But that's what I believe and have been taught. The reason why that will be torn apart is because it relies on postulates that no one agrees on. In other words, why does God care if we have free will? Why must the Devil exist for free will to exist? Why does God care if we choose him? It's axiomatically sloppy at best. |
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The reason why that will be torn apart is because it relies on postulates that no one agrees on. In other words, why does God care if we have free will? Why must the Devil exist for free will to exist? Why does God care if we choose him? It's axiomatically sloppy at best. Quoted:
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4. The Devil : If God is all knowing and all powerful why does he supposedly allow the Devil to have so much influence on the world and run roughshod on him? No other self respecting leader (especially an all powerful one) would allow his enemy to run around totally unchecked like that. Why doesn't he just kick the Devil's ass and do away with him once and for all? I'm only going to address this one because I have a reasonably simple answer. Free will. God wants you to choose him. If he didn't want that, then we'd all be angels serving in Heaven and our existence on earth would never have happened. And yes, I recognize that my answer will be torn to pieces by atheists, and religious folks alike. But that's what I believe and have been taught. The reason why that will be torn apart is because it relies on postulates that no one agrees on. In other words, why does God care if we have free will? Why must the Devil exist for free will to exist? Why does God care if we choose him? It's axiomatically sloppy at best. Because why build robots? |
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Something I have thought about off and on, how do explain a complicated idea to a child? When a 5yo asks why a plane flies, you would say the air pushes up on the wings, and not a long detailed explanation involving lift, drag etc. So what if God gave men a simple answer to match their intellect at that particular time? A simple person could understand and accept that God created the Universe in 7 days, where as the idea of cooling clouds of matter, billions of years etc would be unfathomable. Then just as a child matures and learns so did men. We became advanced enough to start understanding the staggering complexity of the Universe. Quoted:
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I think the primary perpetrators of instigating conflict, albeit indirectly, are the pseudo-scientists of Creationism. Quite a few atheists (anti-theists) are douche nozzles, but I think a lot of their derision is justified by the ridiculous farce of the literal interpretation of the old testament. Just remember that not all Christians believe that at some point every animal in the world boarded one boat. And just remember that many millions of do.
I don't mind if you think it is not true. It doesn't hurt me one bit if you think that. But I believe every word from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21. I even believe the maps in the back and I believe my cover is made of Genuine Leather. I believe the Bible.
Believe as you please. I can't tell if your implicitly attacking my faith but regardless my point is this: There are lots of things in the old testament that could not have happened. Maybe your faith is just stronger than my, but I don't accept things that contradict facts. Something I have thought about off and on, how do explain a complicated idea to a child? When a 5yo asks why a plane flies, you would say the air pushes up on the wings, and not a long detailed explanation involving lift, drag etc. So what if God gave men a simple answer to match their intellect at that particular time? A simple person could understand and accept that God created the Universe in 7 days, where as the idea of cooling clouds of matter, billions of years etc would be unfathomable. Then just as a child matures and learns so did men. We became advanced enough to start understanding the staggering complexity of the Universe. You said it better than I could. Bwt. The word used in the original Hebrew was "yom" not "day. It had multiple meanings one of which was, "Time period of unspecified length". ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom |
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I typed this out in the other thread right as it was locked so I'm reposting it here: I have a few questions for the Evangelicals in this thread. Not trying to troll or be a smart ass, but questions about a few things in Christianity that never made sense to me (and therefore contributed to my lack of faith or belief): 1. "Jesus died to save us from our sins" : I thought that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost were one in the same. So how does this work? Did God supposedly masquerade as a human to get some kicks? Why should we think that Jesus was in pain while being executed, being that he's a supreme being and has magical powers? 2. "God sacraficed his only son for us": Whats so special about God sacrificing his only son (assuming that Jesus is a separate entity than God), while thousands upon thousands of Americans (and other nationalities) have sacrificed their only son for their country? Why is God doing this supposed to be some super special world changing event? And besides, he didn't really sacrifice him, knowing that he was going to resurrect him in a few days and then beam him back up to heaven a little later. It would be nice if a mother could know that about her only son who was killed in WWI, WWII, Vietnam, OIF, OEF, etc... 3. Your faith versus other religions: What makes you so sure that your faith is the right one compared to all of the other religions out there? How can you easily dismiss Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc as being bogus, while being so certain about your beliefs? Seems like God made some mistakes if he's so concerned with being worshiped and caring for his people if he made a massive amount of people in the world not worship him. Just doesn't make any sense to me. 4. The Devil : If God is all knowing and all powerful why does he supposedly allow the Devil to have so much influence on the world and run roughshod on him? No other self respecting leader (especially an all powerful one) would allow his enemy to run around totally unchecked like that. Why doesn't he just kick the Devil's ass and do away with him once and for all? No I'm not trolling, I'm just curious to hear a few answers to some of the things I find ridiculous about the Bible. Good Questions. I'm not an Evangelist or an Atheist (I don't really know what I am to be honest) but my thoughts are: 1) My understanding is that God is, well.....God. Omnipresent throughout the Universe.. Jesus was the earthly prophet sent by God to save the human race from itself and spread the word of God. The Holy Ghost is the representation of God for the purposes of the human race....... although that seems kind of redundant if God is Omnipresent. I've probably got that wrong but that is how I understand it. 2) Bloody good point. Perhaps this is why sacrifice in the name of a good cause is so revered? I dunno. 3) I see Religion as Religion. There are different branches of religions and lots of sub branches of each of those main denominations. I don't dismiss any of them because people believe in all of them and find their own satisfaction, peace and guidance in them all. I do think that Christianity has gone through a revolution which took it from the fire and brimstone of the Old Testament to the arrival of Jesus and an new more "happy-clappy" form of religion that is more conducive to peace and goodwill. If we take islam as an example, my opinion is that it is very much in that "old Testament" phase in the eyes of some muslims, while other more moderate muslims see the need for Islam to adapt and modernise to fit within the Global Village. essentially we are living in a snapshot of time where Christianity has done it's killing and caring the hell out of people, as modern people who have long forgotten the old Christianity we tend to judge other religions by our own standards even though they are moving at their own pace as the pace of change rapidly accelerates around the world. This is bound to generate insecurities and division within those religions as the change is forced upon them by the advancements humanity is making. This, in my view is happening within Christianity as well....... where scientific discovery is casting some doubt on the claims within the bible, some who hold very devout views will naturally feel their religion is under attack - hence why these threads can descend into madness at times. I think that we are probably headed for a place where science will continue to provide answers, but religion will still have a strong place for people who are willing to accept it a a set of guiding principles and beliefs that gives them peace, happiness and solace throughout their lives. 4) The devil? A test to help build strength and good moral practice by giving temptation a humanoid form perhaps? God killing the devil means that the Yin has no Yang. Again...just my opinion for what it is worth (which isn't much) |
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One thing I'd like to bring forward here is the idea that someone else posted very eloquently, that I'll springboard off of: Science studies the mechanics of the universe. It's for figuring out how things work. Religion is a philosophical study. It's the guidelines for its adherents to live by. I genuinely see no conflict between the two unless someone makes it so. Separate magisteria is a relatively new idea, and IMO, it's a face-saving device. Here's the opposite perspective: there are many systems for making predictions; science is one, faith, or religion, is also one. Ancient Hebrews as featured in the OT didn't obey the Lord because they came together and decided a totem was good for stimulating normative tribal behavior; they did it because they would be punished in a clear, agent-like way if they didn't. They treated the Lord as a concrete fact, a prediction; not as a meme, a tool. That's what real belief is. The temporizing retreat to "but they're really just guidelines" is often a tell indicating that, while someone may believe-they-believe in a magic Lord, they don't, deep down, act as if it's how they model the world. I got to experience this firsthand when I was religious. I saw people cry at funerals. They'd fear death. I didn't, because my mental model of reality predicted that we'd shortly meet in eternity, sure as the sky is blue. If you believe death is permanent, OTOH, then while you may tell yourself it isn't, you'll experience sorrow, instead of annoyance or complacency. Because faith has been so ineffective at modeling the world, compared to other systems, whether default inductive learning, deductive logic, or the scientific method; most religious people, deep down, no longer believe. |
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Because why build robots? Quoted:
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4. The Devil : If God is all knowing and all powerful why does he supposedly allow the Devil to have so much influence on the world and run roughshod on him? No other self respecting leader (especially an all powerful one) would allow his enemy to run around totally unchecked like that. Why doesn't he just kick the Devil's ass and do away with him once and for all? I'm only going to address this one because I have a reasonably simple answer. Free will. God wants you to choose him. If he didn't want that, then we'd all be angels serving in Heaven and our existence on earth would never have happened. And yes, I recognize that my answer will be torn to pieces by atheists, and religious folks alike. But that's what I believe and have been taught. The reason why that will be torn apart is because it relies on postulates that no one agrees on. In other words, why does God care if we have free will? Why must the Devil exist for free will to exist? Why does God care if we choose him? It's axiomatically sloppy at best. Because why build robots? Because why not? I'd say that response is just about at cogent as your question. ETA: My point is the your question still relies on the postulates that aren't agreed upon. It's just a self-referencing loop. |
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Stephen Hawking is the most obvious troll ever.... Is he a troll, or is he a someone who simply puts forward a propositions that scientists and religious scholars alike find difficult to answer? Asking difficult questions may not make him popular, but he challenges the scientific and religious communities alike. In fact he challenges all who are prepared to give consideration to the questions. This is how we advance as a society and improve our understanding. |
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Original Thread: http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/Needles_Malloy/creates-a-religion_zpsdae29c12.jpg LOL
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I'll take a crack at number 1 and 2. Which are really the same thing. You can't compare God with humans, think of it like sim city, at least in the difference between God and things he created, humans. Jesus/ God wanted to experience what humans feel, that's why he did I, He is absolutely perfect, the fact he endured so much while being completely innocent is mind boggling. Think infinitely perfect, and he endured some of the worst this world has to offer. As the God Jesus, Holy ghost thing, you can't think of them like people, I think its a poor try to explain something that really no human can understand. 4. Again, you can't think of God like a person. You imagine people getting killed as bad and a devil thing, that's a pretty human perspective with alot of assumptions. We literally can't understand God, I know that sounds convient, but make the assumption that God is all knowing and all powerful, even more than we can fathom, now you try to be the same and look at the problem, see if you can see it from his perspective. Quoted:
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I typed this out in the other thread right as it was locked so I'm reposting it here: I have a few questions for the Evangelicals in this thread. Not trying to troll or be a smart ass, but questions about a few things in Christianity that never made sense to me (and therefore contributed to my lack of faith or belief): 1. "Jesus died to save us from our sins" : I thought that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost were one in the same. So how does this work? Did God supposedly masquerade as a human to get some kicks? Why should we think that Jesus was in pain while being executed, being that he's a supreme being and has magical powers? 2. "God sacraficed his only son for us": Whats so special about God sacrificing his only son (assuming that Jesus is a separate entity than God), while thousands upon thousands of Americans (and other nationalities) have sacrificed their only son for their country? Why is God doing this supposed to be some super special world changing event? And besides, he didn't really sacrifice him, knowing that he was going to resurrect him in a few days and then beam him back up to heaven a little later. It would be nice if a mother could know that about her only son who was killed in WWI, WWII, Vietnam, OIF, OEF, etc... 3. Your faith versus other religions: What makes you so sure that your faith is the right one compared to all of the other religions out there? How can you easily dismiss Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc as being bogus, while being so certain about your beliefs? Seems like God made some mistakes if he's so concerned with being worshiped and caring for his people if he made a massive amount of people in the world not worship him. Just doesn't make any sense to me. 4. The Devil : If God is all knowing and all powerful why does he supposedly allow the Devil to have so much influence on the world and run roughshod on him? No other self respecting leader (especially an all powerful one) would allow his enemy to run around totally unchecked like that. Why doesn't he just kick the Devil's ass and do away with him once and for all? No I'm not trolling, I'm just curious to hear a few answers to some of the things I find ridiculous about the Bible. I'll take a crack at number 1 and 2. Which are really the same thing. You can't compare God with humans, think of it like sim city, at least in the difference between God and things he created, humans. Jesus/ God wanted to experience what humans feel, that's why he did I, He is absolutely perfect, the fact he endured so much while being completely innocent is mind boggling. Think infinitely perfect, and he endured some of the worst this world has to offer. As the God Jesus, Holy ghost thing, you can't think of them like people, I think its a poor try to explain something that really no human can understand. 4. Again, you can't think of God like a person. You imagine people getting killed as bad and a devil thing, that's a pretty human perspective with alot of assumptions. We literally can't understand God, I know that sounds convient, but make the assumption that God is all knowing and all powerful, even more than we can fathom, now you try to be the same and look at the problem, see if you can see it from his perspective. 1/2: God is ALL knowing. If he had to manifest himself in the flesh to understand humans, then he is not all knowing. 4. So things which we are taught by the Bible are Evil, God doesn't view as evil, and that is why he does allows them to happen? That doesn't add up. |
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One thing I'd like to bring forward here is the idea that someone else posted very eloquently, that I'll springboard off of: Science studies the mechanics of the universe. It's for figuring out how things work. Religion is a philosophical study. It's the guidelines for its adherents to live by. I genuinely see no conflict between the two unless someone makes it so. Science branched off of natural philosophy, and math is a subset of philosophy. |
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Quoted: Original Thread: Good one
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I typed this out in the other thread right as it was locked so I'm reposting it here: I have a few questions for the Evangelicals in this thread. Not trying to troll or be a smart ass, but questions about a few things in Christianity that never made sense to me (and therefore contributed to my lack of faith or belief): 1. "Jesus died to save us from our sins" : I thought that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost were one in the same. So how does this work? Did God supposedly masquerade as a human to get some kicks? Why should we think that Jesus was in pain while being executed, being that he's a supreme being and has magical powers? <snip> No I'm not trolling, I'm just curious to hear a few answers to some of the things I find ridiculous about the Bible. It would take many pages to answer all of your questions, but I will try to help on the first one. The Father, the Messiah (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit compose the Triune God, the Trinity. They are all God and in complete agreement and will. But God is Infinite, and you and I are finite. A Finite being simply cannot fully understand an Infinite Being. It is impossible. God has chosen to reveal some of His Glory to us. But we cannot fully understand Him. Jesus did not "masquerade" as a human. He became fully human and fully God at the same time, but He was without a sin nature. He never sinned, therefore making Himself a Perfect Sacrifice. Jesus did indeed suffer. He does not have "magical powers". He is Omnipotent and Omniscient, and Sovereign. But while on earth, He voluntarily did not use some of His abilities as God. This is a theological concept called the Kenosis of Christ. God is not hungry, but Jesus the man was hungry. God is never tired, but Jesus was tired, etc. And Jesus the man suffered and died in our place to satisfy the penalty for our sins. He rose after three days and now sits in Heaven at the right hand of the Father, awaiting His second coming. Believe as you please, but that is what Christians believe. |