Posted: 2/6/2003 9:08:55 AM EDT
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I am currently a junior Mechanical Engineering student at a very reputable (in Michigan anyways) engineering school. I have been doing real good teh past 2 years but the "get your shit straight" bug hit me this semester and I am really tearing through my classes and studying for a few hours everynight. My current grade point is 3.49 and I am very proud of that considering very few people actually graduate. One of my professors that I have a close relationship with approached me last night and told me I should put some seroius consideration into going for my masters of automotive engineering. What I am looking for I guess is how much of a difference is this going to make in the job market? And, are graduate courses ridiculously hard or just a more in-depth continuation of your bachelors? Thanks, Keving67 |
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Classically, in the masters and above programs you start becoming more research oriented. Typically the undergrad years are getting the basics down. A 3.5 GPA is good enough for grad school. You need to carefully pick the grad school and the prof you work with. Many masters students are more or less slaves to a prof, though you get to pick your poison. Often you wind up working on some aspect of a prof's overall research project, so you should go into the situation realizing that and being happy with the subject you'll be working on. Undergrad is highly structured compared to grad school. There's quite a bit more room for improvisation in grad school. |
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Graduate courses are really just more in depth. I would not say that they are any harder, but there might be more demand on your study habits because of the intensity of the subject matter, projects, etc... I have found that, at least in FL, you now need a masters degree to get you where a bachelors would get you several years ago. My school even has a career fair just for graduate students. Needless to say, there are some very nice job offers made during these things that are not made at the regular career fairs. There are also companies with programs that allow you to work and gain experience part time and go to school part time. But you get paid a full time wage, and they pay for your school. These are usually very competative. Lockheed Martin has an excellent program here. More than likely, you will need to have a masters to move up the corporate chain and become competative for promotions in the future. So, why not get it now while you are young, and 'still in the groove' of going to school. It will be much harder later down the road with commitments to a career and family getting in the way....just my 2 cents |
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I have my M.S. in chemistry. It most definetly paid off. The extra 1 1/2 years I invested worked out to an extra 8-9 K a year starting salary. If its anything like chemistry, I will give you some advice. There are two types of grad schools. Those that only grant M.S. and those that offer PhD's. To get a master's from a PhD granting school, can look suspect. Traditionally, those students that can't hack or are unmotivated, are give a consulation masters (as opposed to a PhD). It gets them out of the program with somehting. I recieved mine from a program in which the masters wa terminal (no PhD program). At any rate, good luck. Sloth |
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I'd disagree with the idea of getting an MS from an MS-only institution. Plenty of people go into grad school looking only for the MS, not the PhD, so I've never seen any negative connotations to an MS. Plus the PhD institutions are universally of better reputation. |
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I'm not sure I agree with Sloth either. For instance, in California, at this time the California State system offers up to the Masters, while the University of Calfornia system offers PhDs. I don't think many would argue that the Cal State system is superior to the UC system. And, at Stanford, for instance, the MSCS is considered the end of the road for software engineering. The PhD is offered to those who desire to go into research, but it is not considered a professional degree. In fact, many people drop out of the PhD program once they realize if they graduate, the school will own a chunk of their project. Think Yahoo and Google. But that's another story. Anyway, in most cases a Masters results in higher starting pay, and can put on a certain track in management (MBA). But it doesn't always work out that way, and age has a lot to do with it. |
| I am also not sure I agree with Sloth. Our school has some cutting edge engineering departments that offer PhDs. The knowledge gained by the Phd research gets recycled back down to the graduate and undergraduate level (dilluted of course), and it exposes the students to the latest ideas and trends. Employers know this and feel that the graduate students are better prepared. If you dont make the grade, you get kicked out...too many other students trying to get in. |
| I'd recommend graduate school, especially if you are genuinely interested in engineering. You'll find that the jobs offered to a MS or a PhD typically involves more engineering and design than the jobs offered to a BS. I found the classes at the Masters level were much more enjoyable than the undergraduate classes. An undergraduate degree is for learning the fundamentals, a graduate degree is more for focusing on what you are really interested in. For me, graduate classes weren't any more difficult than undergraduate classes and they were definitely more interesting. I would recommend perusing graduate school at a different university than the one you currently attend though. Also, if you think you may also want a PhD, I'd recommend choosing a masters non-thesis option. There's no sense in writing a thesis and a dissertation, IMO. And if you do decide on a PhD, you better REALLY want it. Good luck, and if you want to know anything about Louisiana Tech University or North Carolina State University, let me know. |
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Conventional wisdom was that an engineer should get a couple of years of work experience & then get an MBA if he wanted to move into management. The theory was that an advanced engineering degree just made you more of an engineer. Supposedly it didn't do anything to make look attractive as a management candidate. Also, the theory was that you would eventually be bored & burnt out on strictly engineering. I don't know if this is still the prevailing ideology, though. I have seen technical types promoted to management without having any business knowledge & boy was that a mistake! They generally lack financial knowledge, sales & marketing knowledge, operations knowledge, human resources knowledge, etc. In other words, they live in the rarified atmosphere that encompasses only their discipline. If you go to grad school full time remember that there is a large opportunity cost if you turn down a job. It could be as little as $40 - 50K per year, but if grad school takes two years, how long will it take to make an extra $100K? Add on the cost of tuition, room, & board & your looking at a serious nut. Go to grad school for engineering if you enjoy the field, but be prepared to go back, for a long time, for an MBA if you want to move up. (The reason that I say "for a long time" is that, unless you have a business minor, you may have to take a lot of prerequisites.) Remember that some schools have a time limit on how long they will accept undergrad course work toward your masters. If you go to grad school for engineering now, you might have go for the MBA right afterwards. That means that you could be in school for another three or four or five years. You might be able to gradually work on a double major masters if you can find the right school. Good luck! |
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I'm not saying taht I agree with it, but where I work I have seen the issue arise. We had a very good canidate that left his PhD program early with a masters. The other PhD level chemist were questioning why he left. Although there were good reasons (his advisor left that school and he didn't want to go), it was an issue that became a sticking point for many. They questioned his level of commitment, his motives and various other things. I liked him and I'm glad in the end we did hire him. He's an excellent chemsit. I just wanted to share my observations. As a side note I've also been told the same thing by friend I went to school with who first started out in a PhD program and then bailed with a masters. I only went to the grad program I did because I knew I would be out in the short amount of time. Just to comment, I did my undergrad and grad work at the same school. Many would say that is a big no-no (the idea of lacking diversity of experience). However, I found that it was not a hinderance to getting a job. So I suppose some of these traditional thoughts will vary from employer to employer. |
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Yep, a lot of business schools won't let you in until you've had a few years in the field. That happened to my friend when he tried to get into the Anderson school at UCLA. They told him to apply after 3-4 years. He finally got in when he was 29 (late bloomer). But this is not true of engineering. In fact, it's probably better to go in immediately, while everything is still fresh in your mind. |
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Quoted: I'd disagree with the idea of getting an MS from an MS-only institution. Plenty of people go into grad school looking only for the MS, not the PhD, so I've never seen any negative connotations to an MS. Plus the PhD institutions are universally of better reputation. I have all intentions of continuing on to get my phd after a few years industry experience. Many companies around here are more tehn willing to pay for you to get smarter. Keving67 |
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Quoted: I have all intentions of continuing on to get my phd after a few years industry experience. Many companies around here are more tehn willing to pay for you to get smarter. Keving67 IMO, you'll never go back once you've started working. Plus, qualifying for a PhD is no joke and usually requires using the knowledge you've gained from your BS and MS. It's much easier to qualify immediately following your MS. Also, you can easily get a teaching assistantship or a research assistantship that will pay for your schooling and your living expenses. |
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In my experience, going back a few years, admittedly, grad school was more of the same as the last year of undergrad (just exponentially more work!), but much more research-oriented, and you were expected to be independent, i.e, no waiting for the instructor to figure out what you were expected to do. YOU were expected to figure out how best to fulfill the course requirements. This meant that, since you didn't know what the parameters were, you tended to work and study all the time, to make up for the lack of structure. Workaholics function well in grad school; it is tailor-made for them. The toughest professors were usually the ones you learned the most from, since you didn't dare embarrass yourself in front of him/her or your colleagues by delivering a duff answer when called upon. You made sure you were ALWAYS as prepared as you could be, and then some. Then again, I recall some real sadists among the profs, but maybe that's because I went to grad school for German literature [%|] ............ Ask also about grants and foreign exchange programs- foreign languages and experience are a big plus in any field nowadays. I could go on about that all that ad infinitum, but do get somebody else to pay for your grad studies if at all possible- you want to have NO debt when you get out, since, you will get more than enough bills to swamp you before you know it....[banghead] Make sure you ask LOTS of questions before you go; ask professors and students there about the university and its programs, as well as students who have graduated about what they thought about what their experiences there and how well they have fared. There will always be things you have to put up with, such as living arrangements and transportation, but don't let that stuff get in your way. Also, stay very healthy, and exercise a lot and eat/sleep well. All days of partying are over, if you want to get ahead in graduate school. After all, why spend all that time/money improving your brain, just to pickle it and kill brain cells? [:D] Keep yourself out of personal entanglements; GFs can be a real pain when in grad school, at least on the master's level where there's so much thrown at you all at once, but it's nice to have somebody to come home to when on the long slog at the PhD level. It can get lonely at times. Don't hang out with undergrads; nobody in your department will take you seriously, if you do. Above all, don't date any women in your classes if you are a teaching assistant, and leave the lab assistants alone, if you're doing research- bad form, and in some places, possible misunderstandings could wreck your career. Why trash it all for some bimbette? Work like a dog, make connections academically and professionally. Your professors, if they see you are an academic star who makes them look good, will bend over backwards eventually to help you out. Don't expect much in your first year, though - you are still being tested, in every sense. Have you thought about getting an MBA? My mom used to work around engineers thrust into management who had no clue about dealing with running people and managing departments and budgets. These guys were simultaneously brilliant and clueless. Living embodiments of the Peter Principle.... Make [b]damn sure[/b] you want to go to grad school, and then, once you do go, give it ALL you've got. Anything else is an utter waste of time and money. In today's economy, only the best get hired. Make sure you are one of them! ........................... I don't want nobody to give me nothin', just open up the door, I'll get it myself. -JAMES BROWN |
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Quoted: Have you thought about getting an MBA? My mom used to work around engineers thrust into management who had no clue about dealing with running people and managing departments and budgets. These guys were simultaneously brilliant and clueless. Living embodiments of the Peter Principle.... Make [b]damn sure[/b] you want to go to grad school, and then, once you do go, give it ALL you've got. Anything else is an utter waste of time and money. In today's economy, only the best get hired. Make sure you are one of them! Currently, I am picking up a class or two here and there towards a minor in business or something along that line. I really really hate my business classes but suck it up and gett hrough them.. Sorry if I look stupid but what is a MBA? I am not looking forward to management, I like the more hands on research and design portion of engineering but I havent had any real experience in an engineering enviorment because almost every compnay has put a hiring freeze on all of its co-op students. So far, I am seeing no cons against continuing on to grad school... Thanks for all the advice guys. Keving67 |
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This topic is right up my alley. First, i'm graduating w/ a BS in Chemical Engineering from UC Berkeley this May. So i've already applied to grad schools seeking a PhD. DO NOT let the issue of money stop you. You gotta remember, if you are doing research as a grad student, THEY pay YOU. Grad student stipends at schools i'm looking at are usually about 20K a year w/ tuition waived. Also, a 3.5 GPA is great. Hell, my GPA is just below a 3. Also, the fact that a professor approached you about grad schools means that the prof will prob write a kick ass letter of recommendation. These letters are VERY important in the application process. Dont forget to take the GRE when you're ready. W/ the engineering background, you should kill the math section so study up on vocab (do you know what "bonhomie" means? haha). Another thing to do is start some undergraduate research w/ a different professor in a field you are interested in; or get an internship/co-op(what i did) if you plan on eventually ending up in industry. |
| An MBA is a Masters in Business Administration. It is a masters program that gives an idividual a really broad, but detailed, overview of all aspects of a business. It covers stats, finance, accounting, management, economics and typically you could put an emphasis in one area or another depending on what electives you take. A very reputable school not too far from laurence tech is Walsh. They have an excellent MBA program, and are extremely reputable. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Have you thought about getting an MBA? My mom used to work around engineers thrust into management who had no clue about dealing with running people and managing departments and budgets. These guys were simultaneously brilliant and clueless. Living embodiments of the Peter Principle.... Make [b]damn sure[/b] you want to go to grad school, and then, once you do go, give it ALL you've got. Anything else is an utter waste of time and money. In today's economy, only the best get hired. Make sure you are one of them! Currently, I am picking up a class or two here and there towards a minor in business or something along that line. I really really hate my business classes but suck it up and gett hrough them.. Sorry if I look stupid but what is a MBA? I am not looking forward to management, I like the more hands on research and design portion of engineering but I havent had any real experience in an engineering enviorment because almost every compnay has put a hiring freeze on all of its co-op students. So far, I am seeing no cons against continuing on to grad school... Thanks for all the advice guys. Keving67 MBA: Masters in business administration. Doesn't sound like you want it if you dont like management. Edited to say: WHERE you get the MBA can become very important. MBA from a place like stanford/ivy league is bling bling. But lots of "not so good" schools offer MBA programs that may not end up paying off. |
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Quoted: Also, a 3.5 GPA is great. Hell, my GPA is just below a 3. Also, the fact that a professor approached you about grad schools means that the prof will prob write a kick ass letter of recommendation. These letters are VERY important in the application process. Dont forget to take the GRE when you're ready. W/ the engineering background, you should kill the math section so study up on vocab (do you know what "bonhomie" means? haha). Another thing to do is start some undergraduate research w/ a different professor in a field you are interested in; or get an internship/co-op(what i did) if you plan on eventually ending up in industry. Every BS student is required to construct a senior project in teams. I chose the SAE Mini Baja. [url]www3.ltu.edu/minibaja[/url] Currently, I am trying to get a co-op but from what I hear, thats almost impossible and you need to know someone in the industry that can pull a few strings for you. Keving67 |
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Quoted: An MBA is a Masters in Business Administration. It is a masters program that gives an idividual a really broad, but detailed, overview of all aspects of a business. It covers stats, finance, accounting, management, economics and typically you could put an emphasis in one area or another depending on what electives you take. A very reputable school not too far from laurence tech is Walsh. They have an excellent MBA program, and are extremely reputable. Do you need to have any previous degree in business to take a MBA course? Keving67 |
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Quoted: Quoted: Also, a 3.5 GPA is great. Hell, my GPA is just below a 3. Also, the fact that a professor approached you about grad schools means that the prof will prob write a kick ass letter of recommendation. These letters are VERY important in the application process. Dont forget to take the GRE when you're ready. W/ the engineering background, you should kill the math section so study up on vocab (do you know what "bonhomie" means? haha). Another thing to do is start some undergraduate research w/ a different professor in a field you are interested in; or get an internship/co-op(what i did) if you plan on eventually ending up in industry. Every BS student is required to construct a senior project in teams. I chose the SAE Mini Baja. [url]www3.ltu.edu/minibaja[/url] Currently, I am trying to get a co-op but from what I hear, thats almost impossible and you need to know someone in the industry that can pull a few strings for you. Keving67 Being in the Bay Area, getting a co-op really aint that hard since there are so many engineering related companies in the area. They ARE still hiring (students are a good source of cheap labor, seriously). Are you willing to get a summer internship here? I didn't have anyone pull strings for me at the pharmaceutical company i went to for about 10 months. There's gotta be lots of companies in Michigan into mechE and some must be looking for students. You gotta be proactive. Get on the web and go after them. [:D] |
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Quoted: Quoted: An MBA is a Masters in Business Administration. It is a masters program that gives an idividual a really broad, but detailed, overview of all aspects of a business. It covers stats, finance, accounting, management, economics and typically you could put an emphasis in one area or another depending on what electives you take. A very reputable school not too far from laurence tech is Walsh. They have an excellent MBA program, and are extremely reputable. Do you need to have any previous degree in business to take a MBA course? Keving67 Almost every MBA school wont touch you until you have a few years of industry under your belt. I know a chick who worked for Honda for a few years after graduating from MIT w/ a 3.5 GPA(non engineer), and still got denied by UCLA MBA program (hard to get into). |
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Quoted: Quoted: An MBA is a Masters in Business Administration. It is a masters program that gives an idividual a really broad, but detailed, overview of all aspects of a business. It covers stats, finance, accounting, management, economics and typically you could put an emphasis in one area or another depending on what electives you take. A very reputable school not too far from laurence tech is Walsh. They have an excellent MBA program, and are extremely reputable. Do you need to have any previous degree in business to take a MBA course? Keving67 At Walsh you have to have a 2.75 gpa or better from an accredited university and 2 years work experience. If you don't have two years work experience or are below a 2.75 you have to submit GMAT test results. With and engineering degree and a MBA you can pretty much write your own ticket on where you want to go from what I've been told. I'm in the same boat as you. Graduating college soon, with a business degree though, and debating grad school or not. Right now I'm trying to get an internship somewhere, but without much luck. |
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Quoted: Being in the Bay Area, getting a co-op really aint that hard since there are so many engineering related companies in the area. They ARE still hiring (students are a good source of cheap labor, seriously). Are you willing to get a summer internship here? I didn't have anyone pull strings for me at the pharmaceutical company i went to for about 10 months. There's gotta be lots of companies in Michigan into mechE and some must be looking for students. You gotta be proactive. Get on the web and go after them. [:D] All the engineering companies around here deal with the big three in some way and they are hurting big time which gets trickled down to all their suppliers. I have spent a few months sending out resumes on my own but most companies will not except a resume for a co-opposition directly from teh student for some reason. I plan on taking a few classes during the summer but would have no problem moving temporarily if I could pick up classes there too. I can't lie, I have had one co-op job offer but it involved me moving to Mexico City for 9 months and live out of a hotel. I thought about it seriously until I contacted my admissions office and they told me they refuse to except any credits from Mexico so I had to turn it down. It was hard to do but I cant imagine living in Mexico for 9 months. Keving67 |
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It's nice to see that you guys are doing a cool senior project, but i'm telling you: doing actual cutting edge research w/ a professor is looked on very highly by grad schools. Especially if you could publish something with your name on it. I have a chem major buddy who does nanotech research at Lawerence Berkeley National Laboratory. He had some grad schools calling and trying to recruit him and he could probably get into just about any school he wants(he's probably going to Northwestern or Harvard). Of course, i dont know if any research is offered at your school. A 3.5 GPA w/ good GRE and letters of rec will get you into a great school. So even if you dont get an internship or research, you'll be fine. [beer] Editied to say: I cant see myself living in Mexico for 9 months either! |
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Quoted: With and engineering degree and a MBA you can pretty much write your own ticket on where you want to go from what I've been told. I'm in the same boat as you. Graduating college soon, with a business degree though, and debating grad school or not. Right now I'm trying to get an internship somewhere, but without much luck. Don't believe everything you've been told. [;)] Actually, even the big-name schools are having tough times in terms of job placement this year and last year. Consulting especially has really dried up. Also, brand name is very important when it comes to MBA degrees - and makes a big difference in job placement. Good advice to anyone is to try to get into a top-25 business school. The "Business Week" ranking of MBA programs is the most widely accepted. You'll definitely need at least 3 years of work experience and pretty good GMAT/GRE scores. A lot of schools have part-time MBA programs, where you take classes in the evening, while you still work. That's often a really good solution for a lot of people. |
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Quoted: So far, I am seeing no cons against continuing on to grad school... Thanks for all the advice guys. Keving67 Oooff... Somebody better throw a wet blanket on this lad before he hurts himself. [brutal honesty mode] I lived in Michigan for the first 22 years of my life, but I've never even heard of Lawrence Tech. Engineering grad school, OTOH, I'm pretty familiar with. I have a BS in one of the big three engineering disciplines from one of the big three schools in Michigan. I have a MS in the same field from one of the big three schools in Texas. I did cutting edge research as an undergrad. I had publications. I helped grad students write their theses. I learned how the system worked, saw people screwed over left and right, saw lives literally ruined for the sake of some progessor's ego. I thought it couldn't happen to me, that I knew what I was doing, that I was ready. I was dead wrong. Engineering grad school at a real university is pure, undiluted hell. I would hesitate to advise my worst enemy to do it. It's time for you to be brutally honest with yourself. Did you go to Lawernce to save money or because it was the best you could do? A masters of "automotive engineering" is meaningless outside of the automotive industry. Go work for an auto company or a first tier supplier and let them pay to send you out for such a degree if this is your goal. If you really intend to earn a PhD in Mechanical Engineering, you need to get into a university with name recognition. Don't waste time on a "I'll go back to grad school after I've worked a few years" fantasy. Only while you're still young and idealistc do you have any hope of enduring the pain, stress, and poverty of engineering grad school. I have never worked in the automotive industry, but I have worked for equally large companies. I have thrown away many a resume containing an oddball degree from a no-name school. If you're [b]really[/b] serious, get yourself into a good school and be prepared to fight like hell against overwhelming odds. (IM me if you want explicit detail... I'm sure what I would say violates the conduct rules of this forum.) If you have a chance to get a good job in the current climate, you'd better think damn hard about taking it. One last piece of advice - whether or not you go to grad school, take and pass the "EIT" or "FE" exam now, while you still remember the stuff you learned in undergrad. It's a bitch to take later. [/brutal honesty mode] bjt |