Posted: 4/5/2014 6:15:45 PM EDT
that was a surprise 
went to a local range I havent been to before, which requires single load. after sending a box of ammo loaded 1 round at a time from the magazine (e.g. reaching into the ejection port and pushing a round into the mag) I was wondering why my point of impact seemed a little to the right and I started wondering if the rounds always getting rammed from the mag into the chamber caused any mis-shaping to the bullet face and if loading them into the chamber would be a better way to go (have done this a bunch with AR's for CMP). anyhow, this wasn't an AR, its a FAL, and on the 2nd round put into the chamber I dropped the bolt and BOOM.. thankfully I had the rifle pointed down range and relatively on target so no issue. searching the interwebs after getting home it seems that in fact dropping the bolt on a chambered round in a FAL is a known cause of slam fires, especially with Federal Ammo, so lesson learned. 
so now i'm wondering - should I not drop the bolt on a chambered round in an AR either? I've never had an issue doing that for CMP for the slow fire segment - did I just get lucky? |
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I would bet that mil-spec ammo with hard primers won't slam fire in a FAL or AR15 under the circumstances you mentioned. Commercial ammo may have too soft primers. It won't. FN-49's are known for slamfiring on soft primers. FALs less so, may want to have that looked at. I tend to only use milsurp in mine, Portuguese and such. I'm keeping the last of the Australian canned-in-bandoliers for trouble, it's amazing stuff. Also, that's a goofy FUDD range, OP. They are forcing you to use your rifle in a way it was not designed to be used. (load mag, insert, chamber first round) Any other options? 
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I would bet that mil-spec ammo with hard primers won't slam fire in a FAL or AR15 under the circumstances you mentioned. Commercial ammo may have too soft primers. right, the machine was designed for hard NATO primers and I was shooting softer civilian primers from Federal hunting ammo.. however, I still didn't expect a slam fire given that I have shot that type of ammo in the past. I believe the issue is putting the round in the chamber and then dropping the bolt vs stripping the round from the magazine. seemed strange to me, but I suppose there is a thin line somewhere and that situation just crosses it. |
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FPNI.
You may also want to check your bolt. Check the condition of your firing pin spring and the cleanliness of your firing pin channel. The firing pin spring on the FAL is pretty heavy duty. Make sure your bolt doesn't have a bunch of shit inside of it preventing proper operation. |
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right, the machine was designed for hard NATO primers and I was shooting softer civilian primers from Federal hunting ammo.. however, I still didn't expect a slam fire given that I have shot that type of ammo in the past. I believe the issue is putting the round in the chamber and then dropping the bolt vs stripping the round from the magazine. seemed strange to me, but I suppose there is a thin line somewhere and that situation just crosses it. Quoted:
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I would bet that mil-spec ammo with hard primers won't slam fire in a FAL or AR15 under the circumstances you mentioned. Commercial ammo may have too soft primers. right, the machine was designed for hard NATO primers and I was shooting softer civilian primers from Federal hunting ammo.. however, I still didn't expect a slam fire given that I have shot that type of ammo in the past. I believe the issue is putting the round in the chamber and then dropping the bolt vs stripping the round from the magazine. seemed strange to me, but I suppose there is a thin line somewhere and that situation just crosses it. The bolt slows down when it has to push a round out of the magazine and into the chamber. |
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No kidding... shocked they didn't make him buy their range reloads to shoot also.  Quoted:
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What the hell kind of shooting range is that?? I thought our pistol ranges were bad. (Slow fire only) No kidding... shocked they didn't make him buy their range reloads to shoot also. they were friendly enough, but the single load rule was pretty with a side of derp. The RSO came over to see what kind of rifle I was shooting and couldn't identify a FAL although I did see two other people with AR's .. mostly shooting at the 50 yd target range.
anyhow, their range their rules I suppose, but I'll continue looking for a better range to go to until I can buy land fit for shooting on. |
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ok, posting this for posterity, and anyone who follows this thread due to similar issues,
On disassembly, I compared the firing pin spring to a new one and also a spare I have in the spare bolt assembly. both the spare bolt spring and new spring are the same length with 16 turns, the one in the current bolt is about 3 mm shorter also with 16 turns (in other words it is permanently compressed or was made shorter). I think a combination of the round in the chamber not the mag (higher speed bolt due to no drag pulling the round from the magazine) plus the soft primer (federal commercial 308) and the reduced firing pin spring all contributed. I've replaced the spring with the new one, and plan to re-test, since I'd like the weapon to not slam fire under any circumstance even though I wont be dropping the bolt on a chambered round in the future aside from this test. zoinks. |
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A lot of guys do. You would be surprised at how many guys that load, and have loaded for years never even heard of CCI #41's Quoted:
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I load 223 with regular small rifle primers and have never had a slam fire in any rifle. A lot of guys do. You would be surprised at how many guys that load, and have loaded for years never even heard of CCI #41's I never had an issue but switched to the 41s to be sure |
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This. Also: Feed from the mag. Also: That range is retarded, I wouldn't go there. Quoted:
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It's possible in any floating firing pin design with enough inertia I guess. This. Also: Feed from the mag. Also: That range is retarded, I wouldn't go there. The FAL does not have a floating firing pin. |
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they were friendly enough, but the single load rule was pretty with a side of derp. The RSO came over to see what kind of rifle I was shooting and couldn't identify a FAL although I did see two other people with AR's .. mostly shooting at the 50 yd target range.
anyhow, their range their rules I suppose, but I'll continue looking for a better range to go to until I can buy land fit for shooting on. Quoted:
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What the hell kind of shooting range is that?? I thought our pistol ranges were bad. (Slow fire only) No kidding... shocked they didn't make him buy their range reloads to shoot also. they were friendly enough, but the single load rule was pretty with a side of derp. The RSO came over to see what kind of rifle I was shooting and couldn't identify a FAL although I did see two other people with AR's .. mostly shooting at the 50 yd target range.
anyhow, their range their rules I suppose, but I'll continue looking for a better range to go to until I can buy land fit for shooting on. Kenmore? They are well known for their poor attitude. Note that the 4 rules saves the day once again. You had the rifle pointed in a safe direction when it slam fired, thus no injuries. I've been there exactly once. Me, with rifle in case: "Hi I'd like to get a lane" RO: "what are you shooting?" Me: "FAL" RO: "Single load only" Me: "Why could you possibly have such a rule?" RO: "You never know when that thing is gonna go full auto" Me: "I know exactly when it's going full auto. Never"
The FAL has a firing pin spring, unlike the AR and Garand with floating firing pins. Chambering a cartridge on either will leave a very slight firing pin "kiss" on the primer. Lots of folks drop Garand bolts on chambered cartridges with no ill effects, but generally it's best to have the round stripped out of the magazine, which slows the bolt. I've seen one slam fire in an AR, it was a space gun at a high power match. Single load, off-hand. Like all of us, the shooter dropped cartridges in the ejection port and hit the bolt catch to load. He suspected that a bolt carrier weight (intended to delay unlocking) gave the BCG enough momentum to slam fire a cartridge. I suspect a high primer. |
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Quoted: right, the machine was designed for hard NATO primers and I was shooting softer civilian primers from Federal hunting ammo.. however, I still didn't expect a slam fire given that I have shot that type of ammo in the past. I believe the issue is putting the round in the chamber and then dropping the bolt vs stripping the round from the magazine. seemed strange to me, but I suppose there is a thin line somewhere and that situation just crosses it. Quoted: Quoted: I would bet that mil-spec ammo with hard primers won't slam fire in a FAL or AR15 under the circumstances you mentioned. Commercial ammo may have too soft primers. right, the machine was designed for hard NATO primers and I was shooting softer civilian primers from Federal hunting ammo.. however, I still didn't expect a slam fire given that I have shot that type of ammo in the past. I believe the issue is putting the round in the chamber and then dropping the bolt vs stripping the round from the magazine. seemed strange to me, but I suppose there is a thin line somewhere and that situation just crosses it. |
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Quoted: that was a surprise went to a local range I havent been to before, which requires single load. after sending a box of ammo loaded 1 round at a time from the magazine (e.g. reaching into the ejection port and pushing a round into the mag) I was wondering why my point of impact seemed a little to the right and I started wondering if the rounds always getting rammed from the mag into the chamber caused any mis-shaping to the bullet face and if loading them into the chamber would be a better way to go (have done this a bunch with AR's for CMP). anyhow, this wasn't an AR, its a FAL, and on the 2nd round put into the chamber I dropped the bolt and BOOM.. thankfully I had the rifle pointed down range and relatively on target so no issue. searching the interwebs after getting home it seems that in fact dropping the bolt on a chambered round in a FAL is a known cause of slam fires, especially with Federal Ammo, so lesson learned. so now i'm wondering - should I not drop the bolt on a chambered round in an AR either? I've never had an issue doing that for CMP for the slow fire segment - did I just get lucky? how else would your rounds be fed into the rifle? |
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It won't. FN-49's are known for slamfiring on soft primers. FALs less so, may want to have that looked at. I tend to only use milsurp in mine, Portuguese and such. I'm keeping the last of the Australian canned-in-bandoliers for trouble, it's amazing stuff. Also, that's a goofy FUDD range, OP. They are forcing you to use your rifle in a way it was not designed to be used. (load mag, insert, chamber first round) Any other options? Quoted:
Quoted:
I would bet that mil-spec ammo with hard primers won't slam fire in a FAL or AR15 under the circumstances you mentioned. Commercial ammo may have too soft primers. It won't. FN-49's are known for slamfiring on soft primers. FALs less so, may want to have that looked at. I tend to only use milsurp in mine, Portuguese and such. I'm keeping the last of the Australian canned-in-bandoliers for trouble, it's amazing stuff. Also, that's a goofy FUDD range, OP. They are forcing you to use your rifle in a way it was not designed to be used. (load mag, insert, chamber first round) Any other options?
Been there done that. |
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I would bet that mil-spec ammo with hard primers won't slam fire in a FAL or AR15 under the circumstances you mentioned. Commercial ammo may have too soft primers. It happened to me one time with M-16 and military ammo, and I have seen it a few times at High Power matches. Mine was fed from the magazine. Cannot say all the others were, but I know some were. I know the odds are against it, but it can happen. When I introduce someone to the AR-15, I make sure they understand that. |
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how else would your rounds be fed into the rifle?
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that was a surprise
went to a local range I havent been to before, which requires single load. after sending a box of ammo loaded 1 round at a time from the magazine (e.g. reaching into the ejection port and pushing a round into the mag) I was wondering why my point of impact seemed a little to the right and I started wondering if the rounds always getting rammed from the mag into the chamber caused any mis-shaping to the bullet face and if loading them into the chamber would be a better way to go (have done this a bunch with AR's for CMP). anyhow, this wasn't an AR, its a FAL, and on the 2nd round put into the chamber I dropped the bolt and BOOM.. thankfully I had the rifle pointed down range and relatively on target so no issue. searching the interwebs after getting home it seems that in fact dropping the bolt on a chambered round in a FAL is a known cause of slam fires, especially with Federal Ammo, so lesson learned.
so now i'm wondering - should I not drop the bolt on a chambered round in an AR either? I've never had an issue doing that for CMP for the slow fire segment - did I just get lucky? how else would your rounds be fed into the rifle?
Yes, im not talking to the obvious point of the intended function of the rifle, but more to the topic of bench rest shooting and maximum accuracy.. since that was the only entertainment available at the time - I've noticed that at CMP matches most of the guys who seem to know their shit single load INTO THE CHAMBER rather than into the mag, and it seems that this is to control the handling of the bullet.. I realize it may sound like a little bit of herp and derp, but that was the idea anyway..
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Kenmore? They are well known for their poor attitude. Note that the 4 rules saves the day once again. You had the rifle pointed in a safe direction when it slam fired, thus no injuries. I've been there exactly once. Me, with rifle in case: "Hi I'd like to get a lane" RO: "what are you shooting?" Me: "FAL" RO: "Single load only" Me: "Why could you possibly have such a rule?" RO: "You never know when that thing is gonna go full auto" Me: "I know exactly when it's going full auto. Never"
The FAL has a firing pin spring, unlike the AR and Garand with floating firing pins. Chambering a cartridge on either will leave a very slight firing pin "kiss" on the primer. Lots of folks drop Garand bolts on chambered cartridges with no ill effects, but generally it's best to have the round stripped out of the magazine, which slows the bolt. I've seen one slam fire in an AR, it was a space gun at a high power match. Single load, off-hand. Like all of us, the shooter dropped cartridges in the ejection port and hit the bolt catch to load. He suspected that a bolt carrier weight (intended to delay unlocking) gave the BCG enough momentum to slam fire a cartridge. I suspect a high primer. Quoted:
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Quoted:
Quoted:
What the hell kind of shooting range is that?? I thought our pistol ranges were bad. (Slow fire only) No kidding... shocked they didn't make him buy their range reloads to shoot also. they were friendly enough, but the single load rule was pretty with a side of derp. The RSO came over to see what kind of rifle I was shooting and couldn't identify a FAL although I did see two other people with AR's .. mostly shooting at the 50 yd target range.
anyhow, their range their rules I suppose, but I'll continue looking for a better range to go to until I can buy land fit for shooting on. Kenmore? They are well known for their poor attitude. Note that the 4 rules saves the day once again. You had the rifle pointed in a safe direction when it slam fired, thus no injuries. I've been there exactly once. Me, with rifle in case: "Hi I'd like to get a lane" RO: "what are you shooting?" Me: "FAL" RO: "Single load only" Me: "Why could you possibly have such a rule?" RO: "You never know when that thing is gonna go full auto" Me: "I know exactly when it's going full auto. Never"
The FAL has a firing pin spring, unlike the AR and Garand with floating firing pins. Chambering a cartridge on either will leave a very slight firing pin "kiss" on the primer. Lots of folks drop Garand bolts on chambered cartridges with no ill effects, but generally it's best to have the round stripped out of the magazine, which slows the bolt. I've seen one slam fire in an AR, it was a space gun at a high power match. Single load, off-hand. Like all of us, the shooter dropped cartridges in the ejection port and hit the bolt catch to load. He suspected that a bolt carrier weight (intended to delay unlocking) gave the BCG enough momentum to slam fire a cartridge. I suspect a high primer. I've had it happen once personally and seen it twice. mine was on a round of .50beo on a factory upper with factory ammo. T Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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FPNI. You may also want to check your bolt. Check the condition of your firing pin spring and the cleanliness of your firing pin channel. The firing pin spring on the FAL is pretty heavy duty. Make sure your bolt doesn't have a bunch of shit inside of it preventing proper operation. good advice. My firing pin snapped in two. Still shot god knows how many rounds before i realized it was dangling. I mean great and all it still fired with a broke firing pin bad that it was just floating around in there. Still shot however. 
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FPNI. You may also want to check your bolt. Check the condition of your firing pin spring and the cleanliness of your firing pin channel. The firing pin spring on the FAL is pretty heavy duty. Make sure your bolt doesn't have a bunch of shit inside of it preventing proper operation. I tend to agree. The FAL has a firing pin spring (which, of course, AR's do not). I would not expect slam fires on a FAL with normal ammunition in good condition. A careful inspection is warranted. Now it is well known that M1's and M14's do NOT tolerate single feeding of rounds without a magazine, but that is due to the lack of firing pin spring and the fairly high bolt speeds without cartridge stripping resistance. In those rifles, and "SLED" or equivalent is needed. For those who are not well versed, single feeding of rounds in the AR is a de rigueur practice in the slow fire stages of the NM course of fire. They make special magazine followers that turn a normal magazine into a loading tray for single feeding rounds by throwing the round on the tray and pushing the bolt stop release. |
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ok, posting this for posterity, and anyone who follows this thread due to similar issues, On disassembly, I compared the firing pin spring to a new one and also a spare I have in the spare bolt assembly. both the spare bolt spring and new spring are the same length with 16 turns, the one in the current bolt is about 3 mm shorter also with 16 turns (in other words it is permanently compressed or was made shorter). I've replaced the spring with the new one, and plan to re-test, since I'd like the weapon to not slam fire under any circumstance even though I wont be dropping the bolt on a chambered round in the future aside from this test. zoinks. I will bet you have no more issues. 
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