[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Front tractor weights (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/8/2014 10:55:41 AM EDT
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I have a question about ordinary front tractor weights as seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1wi-vTRh-E
Are they primarily for keeping the front down due to weight of implements in back, or primarily for keeping the front down while pulling hard? In other words, if you took the weights off, which would be a bigger problem: lifting implements, or pulling hard? |
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50-50. Depends on how much traction as well as the weight of the implement on the back. 
If you tractor has a loader, you can also grab a bucket full of something (I use 2" drain rock) as a temporary substitute for weights. 
hth -hanko When do you find yourself needing a bucket full of rock? Pulling or lifting? |
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When do you find yourself needing a bucket full of rock? Pulling or lifting? Quoted:
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50-50. Depends on how much traction as well as the weight of the implement on the back.
If you tractor has a loader, you can also grab a bucket full of something (I use 2" drain rock) as a temporary substitute for weights.
hth -hanko When do you find yourself needing a bucket full of rock? Pulling or lifting? Auguring. |
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You are from Missouri and have to ask this question here? Read up on counter-balance, torque, and leverage. If all that fails, ask a local farmer to explain simple physics to you. I have had multiple physics and statics classes and aced them. No need to be snarky. Obviously the weights have value for both pulling and lifting. The question is whether one need is greater than the other. |
| If you have really aced multiple physics courses, then you wouldn't be asking this question. Anyone, even remotely familiar with the wonderful world of physics, would know the answer to this. It's like asking why the color white looks the way it does. It's so simple its really hard to understand why you would ask. My apologies, I do not consider myself a great thinker on the teeter-totter theory of weight distribution but I even know that front-end weights aren't just to set your beer on while working on the machine. |
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If you have really aced multiple physics courses, then you wouldn't be asking this question. Anyone, even remotely familiar with the wonderful world of physics, would know the answer to this. It's like asking why the color white looks the way it does. It's so simple its really hard to understand why you would ask. My apologies, I do not consider myself a great thinker on the teeter-totter theory of weight distribution but I even know that front-end weights aren't just to set your beer on while working on the machine. So then can you answer the question? Do they have more value for lifting or pulling or are they needed for both? Were you ever driving a tractor that didn't have enough weight and were you pulling or lifting at the time? |
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Generally it is to keep the front down while pulling hard. The best place to put the weight on a 2wd tractor is the very front since as the torque is applied that lifts the front it still applies all of the weight to the rear tires. However with a lightweight tractor I wouldn't rule out that the 3 point hitch could lift enough to make the front end light. I have seen combines with full racks of weights on the rear axles to counterbalance a heavy header. The general rule of thumb is 100 pounds per horsepower, so a 300 hp tractor needs to weigh 30,000 lbs. Very few tractors are built heavy enough to meet this. So the options are add lots of cast iron weights and/or fill the tires with calcium. |
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Generally it is to keep the front down while pulling hard. The best place to put the weight on a 2wd tractor is the very front since as the torque is applied that lifts the front it still applies all of the weight to the rear tires. However with a lightweight tractor I wouldn't rule out that the 3 point hitch could lift enough to make the front end light. I have seen combines with full racks of weights on the rear axles to counterbalance a heavy header. The general rule of thumb is 100 pounds per horsepower, so a 300 hp tractor needs to weigh 30,000 lbs. Very few tractors are built heavy enough to meet this. So the options are add lots of cast iron weights and/or fill the tires with calcium. Calcium. Interesting. Do you know why calcium is used? |
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Calcium. Interesting. Do you know why calcium is used? Quoted:
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Generally it is to keep the front down while pulling hard. The best place to put the weight on a 2wd tractor is the very front since as the torque is applied that lifts the front it still applies all of the weight to the rear tires. However with a lightweight tractor I wouldn't rule out that the 3 point hitch could lift enough to make the front end light. I have seen combines with full racks of weights on the rear axles to counterbalance a heavy header. The general rule of thumb is 100 pounds per horsepower, so a 300 hp tractor needs to weigh 30,000 lbs. Very few tractors are built heavy enough to meet this. So the options are add lots of cast iron weights and/or fill the tires with calcium. Calcium. Interesting. Do you know why calcium is used? LIQUID sol'n, calcium chloride so it doesn't freeze. And so my rims rust thru. 
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Quoted: So then can you answer the question? Do they have more value for lifting or pulling or are they needed for both? Were you ever driving a tractor that didn't have enough weight and were you pulling or lifting at the time? Quoted: Quoted: If you have really aced multiple physics courses, then you wouldn't be asking this question. Anyone, even remotely familiar with the wonderful world of physics, would know the answer to this. It's like asking why the color white looks the way it does. It's so simple its really hard to understand why you would ask. My apologies, I do not consider myself a great thinker on the teeter-totter theory of weight distribution but I even know that front-end weights aren't just to set your beer on while working on the machine. So then can you answer the question? Do they have more value for lifting or pulling or are they needed for both? Were you ever driving a tractor that didn't have enough weight and were you pulling or lifting at the time? |
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OK. Some good examples have been given of the front getting light while pulling hard.
What about lifting bales? Are large round hay bales heavy enough that you need front weights? Anybody lift them in back without having weights or a loader in front for balance? |
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So then can you answer the question? Do they have more value for lifting or pulling or are they needed for both? Were you ever driving a tractor that didn't have enough weight and were you pulling or lifting at the time? Quoted:
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If you have really aced multiple physics courses, then you wouldn't be asking this question. Anyone, even remotely familiar with the wonderful world of physics, would know the answer to this. It's like asking why the color white looks the way it does. It's so simple its really hard to understand why you would ask. My apologies, I do not consider myself a great thinker on the teeter-totter theory of weight distribution but I even know that front-end weights aren't just to set your beer on while working on the machine. So then can you answer the question? Do they have more value for lifting or pulling or are they needed for both? Were you ever driving a tractor that didn't have enough weight and were you pulling or lifting at the time? I can. If you can, imagine a 24 row disc turning over an tremendous weight in soil every ten feet of linear travel. Do you suppose that would create friction leading to a balance indifference? If you can see that happening, then you would already have the answer. The average tractor doesn't "lift" much weight. The weight of any implements is, for the most part, supported by the axle of said implement leaving only a small quantity of mass to burden the hitch. Have you ever tried to lift a small trailer in order to move it to the hitch of a truck? If so, you would know that it is leverage and weight distribution that allows that to happen and not your superhuman like strength. In summary, I believe that the front-end COUNTER balance found on a tractor is just that...it is needed to counter the weight imbalance of heavy implements/implements causing a weight imbalance due to mass to mass friction (i.e. cultivator). |
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OK. Some good examples have been given of the front getting light while pulling hard. What about lifting bales? Are large round hay bales heavy enough that you need front weights? Anybody lift them in back without having weights or a loader in front for balance? No, most tractors can stab a round bale and lift it without the assistance of front-end weights. |
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OK. Some good examples have been given of the front getting light while pulling hard. What about lifting bales? Are large round hay bales heavy enough that you need front weights? Anybody lift them in back without having weights or a loader in front for balance? what tractor? JD 9560R or a 455 |
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I can. If you can, imagine a 24 row disc turning over an tremendous weight in soil every ten feet of linear travel. Do you suppose that would create friction leading to a balance indifference? If you can see that happening, then you would already have the answer. The average tractor doesn't "lift" much weight. The weight of any implements is, for the most part, supported by the axle of said implement leaving only a small quantity of mass to burden the hitch. Have you ever tried to lift a small trailer in order to move it to the hitch of a truck? If so, you would know that it is leverage and weight distribution that allows that to happen and not your superhuman like strength. In summary, I believe that the front-end COUNTER balance found on a tractor is just that...it is needed to counter the weight imbalance of heavy implements/implements causing a weight imbalance due to mass to mass friction (i.e. cultivator). Good. Thank you. You're right, drawn implements don't put much vertical load on the drawbar. However, as someone else mentioned, some implements are lifted entirely by the three point hitch and can be quite heavy I'm sure. |
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Both... we had a 3 point field cultivator that was about 18'. If you didn't have weight on the front of our 3020 it would get very squirrely when you picked it up.
The same thing would occur if you hooked on to a log or tried to bury the plow up to the drawbar. It was like this... with no wheel weights/calcium in the tires you couldn't get traction. When you added weight to the rear, you got traction but suddenly the front end was leaving the ground. The next choice was to add weights up front or learn to steer with the brakes. |
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what tractor? JD 9560R or a 455 Quoted:
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OK. Some good examples have been given of the front getting light while pulling hard. What about lifting bales? Are large round hay bales heavy enough that you need front weights? Anybody lift them in back without having weights or a loader in front for balance? what tractor? JD 9560R or a 455 Whichever one you have used or seen used for the purpose. |
| We've got an IH 1486 in the shed that's got a full rack of weights up front. Being such a short and light tractor (by today's standards), it's amazing how often the front end gets light just from lifting implements out of the ground. Pulling is one thing, but most of the implement weight is on the ground. When you lift it out of the ground, it gets transferred to the tires and the tractor. Our 20' no-till drill is especially fun in this aspect. It doesn't pull all that hard through the field, but you can feel the front end get light when you lift up at the endrows. Fortunately, we have left and right side brakes, so if the tires can't grab enough (usually when the drill is pretty full) to turn, you can just start turning the tractor with the brakes. |
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Good. Thank you. You're right, drawn implements don't put much vertical load on the drawbar. However, as someone else mentioned, some implements are lifted entirely by the three point hitch and can be quite heavy I'm sure. Quoted:
I can. If you can, imagine a 24 row disc turning over an tremendous weight in soil every ten feet of linear travel. Do you suppose that would create friction leading to a balance indifference? If you can see that happening, then you would already have the answer. The average tractor doesn't "lift" much weight. The weight of any implements is, for the most part, supported by the axle of said implement leaving only a small quantity of mass to burden the hitch. Have you ever tried to lift a small trailer in order to move it to the hitch of a truck? If so, you would know that it is leverage and weight distribution that allows that to happen and not your superhuman like strength. In summary, I believe that the front-end COUNTER balance found on a tractor is just that...it is needed to counter the weight imbalance of heavy implements/implements causing a weight imbalance due to mass to mass friction (i.e. cultivator). Good. Thank you. You're right, drawn implements don't put much vertical load on the drawbar. However, as someone else mentioned, some implements are lifted entirely by the three point hitch and can be quite heavy I'm sure. Not many implements are "entirely lifted" by a 3 point hitch and if they are, they are not very heavy. |
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See the post above yours. See? We both can learn things .
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Not many implements are "entirely lifted" by a 3 point hitch and if they are, they are not very heavy. See the post above yours. See? We both can learn things .
I still doubt you have taken and "aced" many physics courses.
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And to take this thread in the opposite direction,  nothing like trying to lift a heavy load with the FEL and tipping her forward, hence the need for rr wts/calciumI have nose dived many skid loaders. My boss's S300 would lift a FULL bucket to max height but as soon as you would start to dump the CG would be forward of the front wheels I have also lifted 5000 lb generators off flatbed trailers with a 4000 lb forklift. That involved 3 people hanging off the ass end of the forklift and no steering. |
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I still doubt you have taken and "aced" many physics courses.
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Not many implements are "entirely lifted" by a 3 point hitch and if they are, they are not very heavy. See the post above yours. See? We both can learn things .
I still doubt you have taken and "aced" many physics courses.
You can doubt all you like. None of my textbooks told me what Wizzo's post told me, thus my question. Don't mean to pick on you. Thanks for the conversation. 
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I have a small (Ford diesel) tractor - It can lift a bail just find, but when I am going from place to place, bumps can cause me to do wheelies. Hard enough wheelie and the bail will come off the spike (and I come down on the front wheels pretty hard). --- The few implements I do have are all lifted by 3pt. small disk, small shredder, bail spear, post hole digger (stolen). |
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I have had multiple physics and statics classes and aced them. No need to be snarky. Obviously the weights have value for both pulling and lifting. The question is whether one need is greater than the other. Quoted:
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You are from Missouri and have to ask this question here? Read up on counter-balance, torque, and leverage. If all that fails, ask a local farmer to explain simple physics to you. I have had multiple physics and statics classes and aced them. No need to be snarky. Obviously the weights have value for both pulling and lifting. The question is whether one need is greater than the other. It depends on the tractor and what you are pulling w/ it, even whether you are turning around at the end of the field w/ a raised implement or pulling the same implement through the ground. You might say it is situationally dependent. |
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As folks have stated. Both, and there are variables for each.
Less weight is always better to avoid soil compaction, but traction and safety have to considered as well. Loading the rear tires helps for traction, front tires for steering/ traction. Folks used to use water, chloride, and windshield washer/anti-freeze, but it ate rims. Nowdays it's Beet juice, called "Rim guard", as the stuff dosn't freeze, is heavier than water and dosn't rust the rims. Bales on the back without a counter balance can get dicey with a short coupled tractor and no weight up front, especially going up an incline. Never forget you can steer with the brakes, and hover the foot over the clutch if you decide to risk it. 
If you're gonna be transporting a heavy impliment at road speeds, have enough weight up front, and then a little more. The tires oscillate at speed, especially filled tires, and get to bouncing things. Momentum from the impliment weight, combined with the tires doing thier thing can lead to the tractor pawing at the sky, loss of steering, and taking out 3-4 Mail boxes in a row plus any citiot moron that dosn't know better to get outta the way.
What did ya get? There is no smell like new tractor smell.
If there's one thing most folks with a first tractor do, that gets them in trouble, it's not asking. For everything that makes sense about them, there's two things folks don't think of unless they have operated them for years. Physics is nice. How they are applied and hidden in the operation is where things can get snarled up.
Keep asking, and you'll keep things upright and your limbs attached. 
PICS?? I don't see pics. |
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And to take this thread in the opposite direction, nothing like trying to lift a heavy load with the FEL and tipping her forward, hence the need for rr wts/calciumWas at a loading dock at a big city Farm market, and offloading a trailer of fruit. Guy next to me was delivering field boxes of Watermelon from down south. Fork truck operator(Big guy!) was having issues with the weight as the little fork truck was near it's capacity with stacked boxes. Last two, he backed up off the truck and all 4 wheels on the dock, but the boxes still over the truck bed. Stopped, hollered for the driver to go, got off with the clip board and started walking towards me. Everything went slo-mo. Truck pulled ahead and turned towards the gate. Ass end of the fork truck started to slowly rise....and then the thing tiped, dropped the boxes, slammed back down, and rolled off the dock onto the carnage. 
Dude lost it. It was a long day. 12k of boxes of flats off loaded by hand. 
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What did ya get? There is no smell like new tractor smell. Quoted:
What did ya get? There is no smell like new tractor smell. I wish. I have over 100 tractors but the heaviest one is 5 1/2 lbs. I take that back. The pedal tractor is 35 lbs.
PICS?? I don't see pics. Sorry. I'm a technophobe so the cold link in the OP is the best I could do. By all means, pics are welcome in this thread. 
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LIQUID sol'n, calcium chloride so it doesn't freeze. And so my rims rust thru.
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Generally it is to keep the front down while pulling hard. The best place to put the weight on a 2wd tractor is the very front since as the torque is applied that lifts the front it still applies all of the weight to the rear tires. However with a lightweight tractor I wouldn't rule out that the 3 point hitch could lift enough to make the front end light. I have seen combines with full racks of weights on the rear axles to counterbalance a heavy header. The general rule of thumb is 100 pounds per horsepower, so a 300 hp tractor needs to weigh 30,000 lbs. Very few tractors are built heavy enough to meet this. So the options are add lots of cast iron weights and/or fill the tires with calcium. Calcium. Interesting. Do you know why calcium is used? LIQUID sol'n, calcium chloride so it doesn't freeze. And so my rims rust thru.
Sugar beet juice is common, too. It is also less corrosive. |
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I wish. I have over 100 tractors but the heaviest one is 5 1/2 lbs. I take that back. The pedal tractor is 35 lbs.
Sorry. I'm a technophobe so the cold link in the OP is the best I could do. By all means, pics are welcome in this thread. Quoted:
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What did ya get? There is no smell like new tractor smell. I wish. I have over 100 tractors but the heaviest one is 5 1/2 lbs. I take that back. The pedal tractor is 35 lbs.
PICS?? I don't see pics. Sorry. I'm a technophobe so the cold link in the OP is the best I could do. By all means, pics are welcome in this thread. Carpet Farming BTO!!!  
I get it. I used to have 30 or so around here. The attention to detail on some was downright scary.
Sooner or later you have gotta get it out of your system, and get a 1/1 scale though.
Pics are easy. Load 'em to photobucket. Hotlink from photobucket by clicking copy direct. Then paste in the box that comes up after clicking the fourth from the right button next to "Insert tags". |
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I put some weights back on when planting, 12 row, 3 point, stack fold planter full of seed is very heavy. Also when (rarely) I pull a plow, then it is for traction and steering. Other than that, I try to run as light as possible. Pulled 2-1000# weights of my rear inside duals and 10-100# off the front end right after I bought my newest tractor.
Too much front end weight on a MFWD will lead to power hop, a real pain in the ass. |
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I would guess that the answer you are looking for is for pulling. Most implements are designed to be in the ground and they have wheels when not.
As far as needing the for lifting that is most commonly from over using a smaller tractor. Their are 3-point plows that have no wheels but the tractors designed to use them a large enough not to tip when lifted. |
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Quoted: I have had multiple physics and statics classes and aced them. No need to be snarky. Obviously the weights have value for both pulling and lifting. The question is whether one need is greater than the other. Quoted: Quoted: You are from Missouri and have to ask this question here? Read up on counter-balance, torque, and leverage. If all that fails, ask a local farmer to explain simple physics to you. I have had multiple physics and statics classes and aced them. No need to be snarky. Obviously the weights have value for both pulling and lifting. The question is whether one need is greater than the other. |
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I would venture to say that all the book learning and descriptions can never replace the experience of time in the seat of a tractor. That's is how I learned these physics as a 10 yo on a small tractor with either a bush hog or 5' disc strapped to the back.
That is the best answer I can give other than "both". A very good point was made above about 4wd tractors needing weight for traction. Most of the very big farm tractors are 4wd. Anymore, even most of the small 20-50 hp tractors are 4wd as well. Throw on a front end loader, and you have just reversed the problem with a heavy enough weigh in the bucket able to pick up the back wheels. Ballast is needed on the rear then the same as you need it on the front when you have an implement on the 3ph. Most tractors that you see with loaders have 4wd for the extra traction they give. Do not think that all 3ph implements are fairly light. Those big 9600 series JD tractors are quite capable of picking up very large mulit-row planters and other implements that are not pull behind(ex-disc or plow). |
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I have had multiple physics and statics classes and aced them. No need to be snarky. Obviously the weights have value for both pulling and lifting. The question is whether one need is greater than the other. Quoted:
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You are from Missouri and have to ask this question here? Read up on counter-balance, torque, and leverage. If all that fails, ask a local farmer to explain simple physics to you. I have had multiple physics and statics classes and aced them. No need to be snarky. Obviously the weights have value for both pulling and lifting. The question is whether one need is greater than the other. One (or more) of these statements is a lie. |
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LIQUID sol'n, calcium chloride so it doesn't freeze. And so my rims rust thru.
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Generally it is to keep the front down while pulling hard. The best place to put the weight on a 2wd tractor is the very front since as the torque is applied that lifts the front it still applies all of the weight to the rear tires. However with a lightweight tractor I wouldn't rule out that the 3 point hitch could lift enough to make the front end light. I have seen combines with full racks of weights on the rear axles to counterbalance a heavy header. The general rule of thumb is 100 pounds per horsepower, so a 300 hp tractor needs to weigh 30,000 lbs. Very few tractors are built heavy enough to meet this. So the options are add lots of cast iron weights and/or fill the tires with calcium. Calcium. Interesting. Do you know why calcium is used? LIQUID sol'n, calcium chloride so it doesn't freeze. And so my rims rust thru.
And that is why most people around here use antifreeze |