Posted: 2/10/2014 10:38:05 AM EDT
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My wife is a recently licensed RN that took a job at a combination rehab / LTC facility. She's working on getting into a hospital but without prior medical experience she took one of the first jobs that came along so she could get some experience. Anyway, the director of nursing at her facility is a raging cunt that is currently being sued by several nurses she either fired or forced out. This is where my question comes into play; Can the DON mandate an RN to work overtime as a CNA? This is in Michigan and some paperwork on the State website states that a RN is prohibited by federal regulations from working as a CNA. The problem is, I can't find a source of the "federal regulation" they are referencing. I found a discussion on the issue on a nursing website and the consensus was that because a licensed RN is legally obligated to do certain things, they are unable to function as a CNA as because they would be legally required to perform duties above the CNA level in certain situations. They also didn't provide a cite or source of info.
Reason for the question is the DON attempted to mandate my wife to work as a CNA and she refused. My wife was able to work it out so that she worked as an RN and some other poor soul had to be the CNA. My wife would like some ammo if this is attempted in the future.....and I'm unable to find any. So, my ARFCOM brethren....anyone have any info on the subject? Eta - on cell at the moment. I'm aware of the rules and will attempt a wife pic when I get home (no promises) Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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My wife is a recently licensed RN that took a job at a combination rehab / LTC facility. She's working on getting into a hospital but without prior medical experience she took one of the first jobs that came along so she could get some experience. Anyway, the director of nursing at her facility is a raging cunt that is currently being sued by several nurses she either fired or forced out. This is where my question comes into play; Can the DON mandate an RN to work overtime as a CNA? This is in Michigan and some paperwork on the State website states that a RN is prohibited by federal regulations from working as a CNA. The problem is, I can't find a source of the "federal regulation" they are referencing. I found a discussion on the issue on a nursing website and the consensus was that because a licensed RN is legally obligated to do certain things, they are unable to function as a CNA as because they would be legally required to perform duties above the CNA level in certain situations. They also didn't provide a cite or source of info. Reason for the question is the DON attempted to mandate my wife to work as a CNA and she refused. My wife was able to work it out so that she worked as an RN and some other poor soul had to be the CNA. My wife would like some ammo if this is attempted in the future.....and I'm unable to find any. So, my ARFCOM brethren....anyone have any info on the subject? Eta - on cell at the moment. I'm aware of the rules and will attempt a wife pic when I get home (no promises) Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile The DON can't mandate anything your wife isn't willing to put up with. Since a CNA is a position far inferior to an RN, your wife should tell the DON to pound sand. |
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Yes, the DON can utilize any of their staff to work at a capacity lower than what they are qualified for. An RN can function as a CNA although it's a waste of resources. I was a nurse manager at a rehab and long term care facility and utilized my staff to meet requirements. Sometimes that meant dropping nurses to do care. An RN can wipe an ass just as good as a CNA. Sorry.
Also, my wife is a fairly new RN and did care at a hospital due to low staffing at certain times. It happens. |
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The DON can't mandate anything your wife isn't willing to put up with. Since a CNA is a position far inferior to an RN, your wife should tell the DON to pound sand. Quoted:
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My wife is a recently licensed RN that took a job at a combination rehab / LTC facility. She's working on getting into a hospital but without prior medical experience she took one of the first jobs that came along so she could get some experience. Anyway, the director of nursing at her facility is a raging cunt that is currently being sued by several nurses she either fired or forced out. This is where my question comes into play; Can the DON mandate an RN to work overtime as a CNA? This is in Michigan and some paperwork on the State website states that a RN is prohibited by federal regulations from working as a CNA. The problem is, I can't find a source of the "federal regulation" they are referencing. I found a discussion on the issue on a nursing website and the consensus was that because a licensed RN is legally obligated to do certain things, they are unable to function as a CNA as because they would be legally required to perform duties above the CNA level in certain situations. They also didn't provide a cite or source of info. Reason for the question is the DON attempted to mandate my wife to work as a CNA and she refused. My wife was able to work it out so that she worked as an RN and some other poor soul had to be the CNA. My wife would like some ammo if this is attempted in the future.....and I'm unable to find any. So, my ARFCOM brethren....anyone have any info on the subject? Eta - on cell at the moment. I'm aware of the rules and will attempt a wife pic when I get home (no promises) Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile The DON can't mandate anything your wife isn't willing to put up with. Since a CNA is a position far inferior to an RN, your wife should tell the DON to pound sand. Yeah, we got that part. What I'm looking for is the specific federal regulation or law that prohibits a RN from working as a CNA. Just telling the DON to fuck off won't accomplish anything other than putting a bullseye on my wife's back. If, however, she says "federal regulation xyz prohibits me from working as a CNA, the DON would have a more difficult time fucking with her. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Yes, the DON can utilize any of their staff to work at a capacity lower than what they are qualified for. An RN can function as a CNA although it's a waste of resources. I was a nurse manager at a rehab and long term care facility and utilized my staff to meet requirements. Sometimes that meant dropping nurses to do care. An RN can wipe an ass just as good as a CNA. Sorry. Also, my wife is a fairly new RN and did care at a hospital due to low staffing at certain times. It happens. According to the official state of michigan request for exemption for CNA licensing......an RN is PROHIBITED by federal regulations to work as a CNA. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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According to the official state of michigan request for exemption for CNA licensing......an RN is PROHIBITED by federal regulations to work as a CNA. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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Yes, the DON can utilize any of their staff to work at a capacity lower than what they are qualified for. An RN can function as a CNA although it's a waste of resources. I was a nurse manager at a rehab and long term care facility and utilized my staff to meet requirements. Sometimes that meant dropping nurses to do care. An RN can wipe an ass just as good as a CNA. Sorry. Also, my wife is a fairly new RN and did care at a hospital due to low staffing at certain times. It happens. According to the official state of michigan request for exemption for CNA licensing......an RN is PROHIBITED by federal regulations to work as a CNA. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile That's great. She's still an RN conducting patient care. Tell me where they took her RN privileges away. Edit: so tell me what is outside of an RN's scope of practice too? |
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That's great. She's still an RN conducting patient care. Tell me where they took her RN privileges away. Edit: so tell me what is outside of an RN's scope of practice too? Quoted:
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Yes, the DON can utilize any of their staff to work at a capacity lower than what they are qualified for. An RN can function as a CNA although it's a waste of resources. I was a nurse manager at a rehab and long term care facility and utilized my staff to meet requirements. Sometimes that meant dropping nurses to do care. An RN can wipe an ass just as good as a CNA. Sorry. Also, my wife is a fairly new RN and did care at a hospital due to low staffing at certain times. It happens. According to the official state of michigan request for exemption for CNA licensing......an RN is PROHIBITED by federal regulations to work as a CNA. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile That's great. She's still an RN conducting patient care. Tell me where they took her RN privileges away. Edit: so tell me what is outside of an RN's scope of practice too? I'm just quoting info that is on her states licensing website. Here is the document (from 9/13). See #2  </a>" />
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You can be made to work in a position lower than your licensure. Happens in hospitals with low census all the time.
Want to get a nurse pissed off. Low census them, put them on call, then call them in to babysit a crazy person at 2 am. I wasn't aware of the Federal law that an RN couldn't work as a CNA...learn something new every day. |
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I'm just quoting info that is on her states licensing website. Here is the document (from 9/13). See #2 http://<a href=http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr303/bwilson2013/Mobile%20Uploads/photo_zps887d415c.png</a>" /> Quoted:
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Yes, the DON can utilize any of their staff to work at a capacity lower than what they are qualified for. An RN can function as a CNA although it's a waste of resources. I was a nurse manager at a rehab and long term care facility and utilized my staff to meet requirements. Sometimes that meant dropping nurses to do care. An RN can wipe an ass just as good as a CNA. Sorry. Also, my wife is a fairly new RN and did care at a hospital due to low staffing at certain times. It happens. According to the official state of michigan request for exemption for CNA licensing......an RN is PROHIBITED by federal regulations to work as a CNA. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile That's great. She's still an RN conducting patient care. Tell me where they took her RN privileges away. Edit: so tell me what is outside of an RN's scope of practice too? I'm just quoting info that is on her states licensing website. Here is the document (from 9/13). See #2 http://<a href=http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr303/bwilson2013/Mobile%20Uploads/photo_zps887d415c.png</a>" /> That's right because you are always working as an RN. Dropping to the level of a CNA position does not negate the responsibility of an RN. You're grasping at straws. |
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You can be made to work in a position lower than your licensure. Happens in hospitals with low census all the time. Want to get a nurse pissed off. Low census them, put them on call, then call them in to babysit a crazy person at 2 am. I understand it happens all the time.....doesn't mean it's kosher. Her facility has routinely been telling nurses that they have to work as a CNA. documentation on Michigans licensing website specifically states that a licensed RN is prohibited by federal law from working as a CNA. The document didn't provide the cite for the law....I was hoping someone here may know it. I can see Ill have to check directly with the state. No wonder it's so easy to take our rights away. Just because something happens all the time does not mean that it's ok. I have a state document staring that it's illegal and everyone on here says get over it, suck it up and do it. Public schools have done wonders for the establishment by teaching everyone not to question their masters. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I understand it happens all the time.....doesn't mean it's kosher. Her facility has routinely been telling nurses that they have to work as a CNA. documentation on Michigans licensing website specifically states that a licensed RN is prohibited by federal law from working as a CNA. The document didn't provide the cite for the law....I was hoping someone here may know it. I can see Ill have to check directly with the state. No wonder it's so easy to take our rights away. Just because something happens all the time does not mean that it's ok. I have a state document staring that it's illegal and everyone on here says get over it, suck it up and do it. Public schools have done wonders for the establishment by teaching everyone not to question their masters. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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You can be made to work in a position lower than your licensure. Happens in hospitals with low census all the time. Want to get a nurse pissed off. Low census them, put them on call, then call them in to babysit a crazy person at 2 am. I understand it happens all the time.....doesn't mean it's kosher. Her facility has routinely been telling nurses that they have to work as a CNA. documentation on Michigans licensing website specifically states that a licensed RN is prohibited by federal law from working as a CNA. The document didn't provide the cite for the law....I was hoping someone here may know it. I can see Ill have to check directly with the state. No wonder it's so easy to take our rights away. Just because something happens all the time does not mean that it's ok. I have a state document staring that it's illegal and everyone on here says get over it, suck it up and do it. Public schools have done wonders for the establishment by teaching everyone not to question their masters. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile You're still not getting it. An RN doing bedside care is still an RN. |
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That's right because you are always working as an RN. Dropping to the level of a CNA position does not negate the responsibility of an RN. You're grasping at straws. Quoted:
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Yes, the DON can utilize any of their staff to work at a capacity lower than what they are qualified for. An RN can function as a CNA although it's a waste of resources. I was a nurse manager at a rehab and long term care facility and utilized my staff to meet requirements. Sometimes that meant dropping nurses to do care. An RN can wipe an ass just as good as a CNA. Sorry. Also, my wife is a fairly new RN and did care at a hospital due to low staffing at certain times. It happens. According to the official state of michigan request for exemption for CNA licensing......an RN is PROHIBITED by federal regulations to work as a CNA. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile That's great. She's still an RN conducting patient care. Tell me where they took her RN privileges away. Edit: so tell me what is outside of an RN's scope of practice too? I'm just quoting info that is on her states licensing website. Here is the document (from 9/13). See #2 http://<a href=http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr303/bwilson2013/Mobile%20Uploads/photo_zps887d415c.png</a>" /> That's right because you are always working as an RN. Dropping to the level of a CNA position does not negate the responsibility of an RN. You're grasping at straws. How in the hell is producing a state document that says it's illegal grasping at straws? It's not like I came on here and said "my wife's uncles cousin sisters brothers nephew works for the federal gov and said this is illegal. I provided a state document that said its illegal and questioned whether or not anyone knew of the particular law or reg that made it illegal......and I'm somehow grasping at straws? Ok Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I understand it happens all the time.....doesn't mean it's kosher. Her facility has routinely been telling nurses that they have to work as a CNA. documentation on Michigans licensing website specifically states that a licensed RN is prohibited by federal law from working as a CNA. The document didn't provide the cite for the law....I was hoping someone here may know it. I can see Ill have to check directly with the state. No wonder it's so easy to take our rights away. Just because something happens all the time does not mean that it's ok. I have a state document staring that it's illegal and everyone on here says get over it, suck it up and do it. Public schools have done wonders for the establishment by teaching everyone not to question their masters. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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You can be made to work in a position lower than your licensure. Happens in hospitals with low census all the time. Want to get a nurse pissed off. Low census them, put them on call, then call them in to babysit a crazy person at 2 am. I understand it happens all the time.....doesn't mean it's kosher. Her facility has routinely been telling nurses that they have to work as a CNA. documentation on Michigans licensing website specifically states that a licensed RN is prohibited by federal law from working as a CNA. The document didn't provide the cite for the law....I was hoping someone here may know it. I can see Ill have to check directly with the state. No wonder it's so easy to take our rights away. Just because something happens all the time does not mean that it's ok. I have a state document staring that it's illegal and everyone on here says get over it, suck it up and do it. Public schools have done wonders for the establishment by teaching everyone not to question their masters. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile You need to calm down scooter. You and your wife want to get into a pissing match with the only charge nurse she has ever had, go ahead be my guest. BTW it isn't even hospital experience. Tell her to enjoy her fun filled career in the home health care field because even if you win, no nursing manager will ever touch her again. It isn't illegal if she is functioning as a RN and I am sure that is what the nurse manager will say she is doing. |
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You need to calm down scooter. You and your wife want to get into a pissing match with the only charge nurse she has ever had, go ahead be my guest. BTW it isn't even hospital experience. Tell her to enjoy her fun filled career in the home health care field because even if you win, no nursing manager will ever touch her again. It isn't illegal if she is functioning as a RN and I am sure that is what the nurse manager will say she is doing. Quoted:
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You can be made to work in a position lower than your licensure. Happens in hospitals with low census all the time. Want to get a nurse pissed off. Low census them, put them on call, then call them in to babysit a crazy person at 2 am. I understand it happens all the time.....doesn't mean it's kosher. Her facility has routinely been telling nurses that they have to work as a CNA. documentation on Michigans licensing website specifically states that a licensed RN is prohibited by federal law from working as a CNA. The document didn't provide the cite for the law....I was hoping someone here may know it. I can see Ill have to check directly with the state. No wonder it's so easy to take our rights away. Just because something happens all the time does not mean that it's ok. I have a state document staring that it's illegal and everyone on here says get over it, suck it up and do it. Public schools have done wonders for the establishment by teaching everyone not to question their masters. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile You need to calm down scooter. You and your wife want to get into a pissing match with the only charge nurse she has ever had, go ahead be my guest. BTW it isn't even hospital experience. Tell her to enjoy her fun filled career in the home health care field because even if you win, no nursing manager will ever touch her again. It isn't illegal if she is functioning as a RN and I am sure that is what the nurse manager will say she is doing. Everyone is aware it isn't a hospital experience....hence my mention of it in the OP. For the record skippy, I was asking if anyone knew of the federal law or regulation referenced on the state document. You didn't, but felt the need to provide your perspective anyway. As far as your career concerns for my wife, they are genuinely appreciated. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Recent RN grad here. Tell the wife unit to remember about PATIENT CARE. Would your wife let a patient sit in their own filth if there is no CNA to on the floor ? I would not have a problem working as a CNA if understaffed on my days off AS LONG AS I was compensated appropriately for it. Just because you are "working" as a CNA, you are licensed as a RN and, to my knowledge, still have responsibilities and are liable if something were to go wrong.
And no, I have never heard of a any nurse down here (FL) being mandated to work as a CNA. I would guess the facility is saving money since they have a RN working as a CNA all the while with the responsibilities of a RN minus med administration and all that good stuff. |
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Doing the "work of a CNA", is a lot different than signing CNA after your name in legal documentation. Whether you have CNA, RN, or MD after your name, those give you a ceiling of authority, not bottom up authority. Most state BON mandates state that you can't work as a CNA, meaning you can't sign CNA after your name in legal documentation. You can still do the work and duties of a CNA because they are inclusive of the RN duties your wife already has. But will sign as an RN because that is her current licensure. Being paid a CNA rate as an RN is another can of worms, which is what I think your wife's employer is getting at. Doing the work duties and getting paid the rate of a CNA. I would tell them to pound sand. I just graduated from nursing school in December, and turned down multiple hospital and clinic based job offers before starting my current job.
If she wants to transition into the hospital, tell her to start working on her ACLS and PALS on her own and get those certs done. Maybe even an APRN. They will look good on a resume, and will open some doors. |
| are they going to pay her as a CNA rate, rather than her RN pay? Probably a crucial distinction. I know where I work that on very rare occasions, we work as 'helping hands' when the unit is short staffed. You are still an RN, but you end of doing a lot of CNA duties -- which, when you are an RN, you do in the course of your normal duties, too. So the pay issue is pretty important. |
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Everyone is aware it isn't a hospital experience....hence my mention of it in the OP. For the record skippy, I was asking if anyone knew of the federal law or regulation referenced on the state document. You didn't, but felt the need to provide your perspective anyway. As far as your career concerns for my wife, they are genuinely appreciated. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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You can be made to work in a position lower than your licensure. Happens in hospitals with low census all the time. Want to get a nurse pissed off. Low census them, put them on call, then call them in to babysit a crazy person at 2 am. I understand it happens all the time.....doesn't mean it's kosher. Her facility has routinely been telling nurses that they have to work as a CNA. documentation on Michigans licensing website specifically states that a licensed RN is prohibited by federal law from working as a CNA. The document didn't provide the cite for the law....I was hoping someone here may know it. I can see Ill have to check directly with the state. No wonder it's so easy to take our rights away. Just because something happens all the time does not mean that it's ok. I have a state document staring that it's illegal and everyone on here says get over it, suck it up and do it. Public schools have done wonders for the establishment by teaching everyone not to question their masters. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile You need to calm down scooter. You and your wife want to get into a pissing match with the only charge nurse she has ever had, go ahead be my guest. BTW it isn't even hospital experience. Tell her to enjoy her fun filled career in the home health care field because even if you win, no nursing manager will ever touch her again. It isn't illegal if she is functioning as a RN and I am sure that is what the nurse manager will say she is doing. Everyone is aware it isn't a hospital experience....hence my mention of it in the OP. For the record skippy, I was asking if anyone knew of the federal law or regulation referenced on the state document. You didn't, but felt the need to provide your perspective anyway. As far as your career concerns for my wife, they are genuinely appreciated. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile The law is pointless. Just like your attempt to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Nurses can't function as a CNA per law...cool. That means nothing. Why? Instead of a CNA cleaning poopy butts, taking out the trash, and all the other shitty jobs in the nursing world, it's an RN doing those jobs as an RN. |
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Doing the "work of a CNA", is a lot different than signing CNA after your name in legal documentation. Whether you have CNA, RN, or MD after your name, those give you a ceiling of authority, not bottom up authority. Most state BON mandates state that you can't work as a CNA, meaning you can't sign CNA after your name in legal documentation. You can still do the work and duties of a CNA because they are inclusive of the RN duties your wife already has. But will sign as an RN because that is her current licensure. Being paid a CNA rate as an RN is another can of worms, which is what I think your wife's employer is getting at. Doing the work duties and getting paid the rate of a CNA. I would tell them to pound sand. I just graduated from nursing school in December, and turned down multiple hospital and clinic based job offers before starting my current job. If she wants to transition into the hospital, tell her to start working on her ACLS and PALS on her own and get those certs done. Maybe even an APRN. They will look good on a resume, and will open some doors. Hit the nail on the head. I would work strictly as a CNA if needed but at the pay of an RN since I will still be liable for certain circumstances that fall within the RN scope of practice. is APRN the same as CCRN ? I just graduated and have my ACLS and PALS, hoping to get hired in the NICU. |
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Hit the nail on the head. I would work strictly as a CNA if needed but at the pay of an RN since I will still be liable for certain circumstances that fall within the RN scope of practice. is APRN the same as CCRN ? I just graduated and have my ACLS and PALS, hoping to get hired in the NICU. Quoted:
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Doing the "work of a CNA", is a lot different than signing CNA after your name in legal documentation. Whether you have CNA, RN, or MD after your name, those give you a ceiling of authority, not bottom up authority. Most state BON mandates state that you can't work as a CNA, meaning you can't sign CNA after your name in legal documentation. You can still do the work and duties of a CNA because they are inclusive of the RN duties your wife already has. But will sign as an RN because that is her current licensure. Being paid a CNA rate as an RN is another can of worms, which is what I think your wife's employer is getting at. Doing the work duties and getting paid the rate of a CNA. I would tell them to pound sand. I just graduated from nursing school in December, and turned down multiple hospital and clinic based job offers before starting my current job. If she wants to transition into the hospital, tell her to start working on her ACLS and PALS on her own and get those certs done. Maybe even an APRN. They will look good on a resume, and will open some doors. Hit the nail on the head. I would work strictly as a CNA if needed but at the pay of an RN since I will still be liable for certain circumstances that fall within the RN scope of practice. is APRN the same as CCRN ? I just graduated and have my ACLS and PALS, hoping to get hired in the NICU. Good luck to you. I didn't do NICU, but pediatrics. Very emotionally draining and one of the best challenges to your skills. You are a special kind of breed. |
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Hit the nail on the head. I would work strictly as a CNA if needed but at the pay of an RN since I will still be liable for certain circumstances that fall within the RN scope of practice. is APRN the same as CCRN ? I just graduated and have my ACLS and PALS, hoping to get hired in the NICU. Quoted:
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Doing the "work of a CNA", is a lot different than signing CNA after your name in legal documentation. Whether you have CNA, RN, or MD after your name, those give you a ceiling of authority, not bottom up authority. Most state BON mandates state that you can't work as a CNA, meaning you can't sign CNA after your name in legal documentation. You can still do the work and duties of a CNA because they are inclusive of the RN duties your wife already has. But will sign as an RN because that is her current licensure. Being paid a CNA rate as an RN is another can of worms, which is what I think your wife's employer is getting at. Doing the work duties and getting paid the rate of a CNA. I would tell them to pound sand. I just graduated from nursing school in December, and turned down multiple hospital and clinic based job offers before starting my current job. If she wants to transition into the hospital, tell her to start working on her ACLS and PALS on her own and get those certs done. Maybe even an APRN. They will look good on a resume, and will open some doors. Hit the nail on the head. I would work strictly as a CNA if needed but at the pay of an RN since I will still be liable for certain circumstances that fall within the RN scope of practice. is APRN the same as CCRN ? I just graduated and have my ACLS and PALS, hoping to get hired in the NICU. Its a little different, its an advanced practice RN. Either one would be a great choice IMO. Yes good luck also. I know I can't work with that many sick kids, I have too much sympathy for the little ones. I am an ER junky. |
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happens all the time. My hospital runs through CNA's like water. They call off all the time. I have seen nurses do the CNA job quite often.
Hell I know quite a few that would volunteer to do it as a change of pace or to simply not deal with the day to day drama. The nurses got paid a nurses wage to do a CNA's job. Big deal, the nurse is still a nurse. What jobs do CNA's do that nurses don't do also? |
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Hit the nail on the head. I would work strictly as a CNA if needed but at the pay of an RN since I will still be liable for certain circumstances that fall within the RN scope of practice. is APRN the same as CCRN ? I just graduated and have my ACLS and PALS, hoping to get hired in the NICU. Quoted:
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Doing the "work of a CNA", is a lot different than signing CNA after your name in legal documentation. Whether you have CNA, RN, or MD after your name, those give you a ceiling of authority, not bottom up authority. Most state BON mandates state that you can't work as a CNA, meaning you can't sign CNA after your name in legal documentation. You can still do the work and duties of a CNA because they are inclusive of the RN duties your wife already has. But will sign as an RN because that is her current licensure. Being paid a CNA rate as an RN is another can of worms, which is what I think your wife's employer is getting at. Doing the work duties and getting paid the rate of a CNA. I would tell them to pound sand. I just graduated from nursing school in December, and turned down multiple hospital and clinic based job offers before starting my current job. If she wants to transition into the hospital, tell her to start working on her ACLS and PALS on her own and get those certs done. Maybe even an APRN. They will look good on a resume, and will open some doors. Hit the nail on the head. I would work strictly as a CNA if needed but at the pay of an RN since I will still be liable for certain circumstances that fall within the RN scope of practice. is APRN the same as CCRN ? I just graduated and have my ACLS and PALS, hoping to get hired in the NICU. Thanks for the info, I'll pass it along to my wife. As far as working strictly as a CNA, one of the issues that arose when an RN was ordered to work as a CNA involved patient weights during the shift. The RN was written up for failing to obtain every patients weight on her unit prior to leaving (a CNA duty at their facility). The issue was that a patient with a trach was having difficulty breathing (as well as some other medical shit I don't understand) and the RN felt she was legally obligated to care for the patient (which she did along with the other RN that was there). The DON wrote her up for failing to perform the CNA duties required of her that evening. So, since it appears that you are a nurse....in that situation what would you have done? Acted as an RN and assisted the other RN in caring for the patient? Or, reported the issue and continue on with your weights? I'm legitimately not trying to be argumentative, I really want to know the answer. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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happens all the time. My hospital runs through CNA's like water. They call off all the time. I have seen nurses do the CNA job quite often. Hell I know quite a few that would volunteer to do it as a change of pace or to simply not deal with the day to day drama. The nurses got paid a nurses wage to do a CNA's job. Big deal, the nurse is still a nurse. What jobs do CNA's do that nurses don't do also? See my question above. The problem is that the nurses are being written up for failing to compete specific CNA duties due to completing RN duties that they feel they are legally obligated to do/perform under their license. Remember, this isn't a hospital with dozens of nurses and doctors around. My wife usually has 25 patients as an RN with a few CNAs to help. So when acting as a CNA and a situation arises, do you act as an RN or blow it off since you are a CNA (acting). Cuz the bitch DON doesn't seem to give a shit about your legal responsibilities as a RN if you fail to complete your CNA duties. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I work in dialysis as a Biomed Tech. We have RNs and Patient Care Techs. PCTs are similar to CNAs. Typically an RN oversees 3 Pcts with 4-5 patients each. Sometimes, when they are are short on PCTs, the RNs are called on to act as PCTs. They do all the work of a PCT and still perform RN duties. Its expensive to pay an RN to do the job of a PCT, but sometimes, you have to.
The only question I have is, is she getting RN pay when she is performing CNA duties? |
| OP I think you are misenterpreting the statute. This type of statute is in place to prevent RN's from hiring on to cna positions based on said nursing licensure alone. Say you have an RN whose license expires, or an RN who wants to pick up a second part time job. In either situation, the RN can't take a cna position just because she's an RN and happens to know the CNA job, she would have to have an active cna certification as well as an Rn license. That doesn't mean she can't be delegated a cna "workload" while employed as an RN. For what it's worth a lot of RN's make shitty CNA's, and can't handle the work. I've worked both jobs, and they are both difficult in entirely different ways. Hope that makes sense... |
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I work in dialysis as a Biomed Tech. We have RNs and Patient Care Techs. PCTs are similar to CNAs. Typically an RN oversees 3 Pcts with 4-5 patients each. Sometimes, when they are are short on PCTs, the RNs are called on to act as PCTs. They do all the work of a PCT and still perform RN duties. Its expensive to pay an RN to do the job of a PCT, but sometimes, you have to. The only question I have is, is she getting RN pay when she is performing CNA duties? Yes, she gets RN pay. That's not the issue. The issue is whether the DON can write up an RN for failing to due CNA work if the RN is performing RN work that they feel they are obligated to do. Basically, if they are ordered to work as a CNA and they witness a medical emergency, as a licensed RN how can they legally or ethically NOT respond??? And if they do respond and it means they fail to complete CNA duties assigned them, can the DON write them up for it? Seems to me like they are in a catch 22....but apparently nurses aren't supposed to question such things, or they are making a mountain out of a mole hill Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Yes, she gets RN pay. That's not the issue. The issue is whether the DON can write up an RN for failing to due CNA work if the RN is performing RN work that they feel they are obligated to do. Basically, if they are ordered to work as a CNA and they witness a medical emergency, as a licensed RN how can they legally or ethically NOT respond??? And if they do respond and it means they fail to complete CNA duties assigned them, can the DON write them up for it? Seems to me like they are in a catch 22....but apparently nurses aren't supposed to question such things, or they are making a mountain out of a mole hill Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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I work in dialysis as a Biomed Tech. We have RNs and Patient Care Techs. PCTs are similar to CNAs. Typically an RN oversees 3 Pcts with 4-5 patients each. Sometimes, when they are are short on PCTs, the RNs are called on to act as PCTs. They do all the work of a PCT and still perform RN duties. Its expensive to pay an RN to do the job of a PCT, but sometimes, you have to. The only question I have is, is she getting RN pay when she is performing CNA duties? Yes, she gets RN pay. That's not the issue. The issue is whether the DON can write up an RN for failing to due CNA work if the RN is performing RN work that they feel they are obligated to do. Basically, if they are ordered to work as a CNA and they witness a medical emergency, as a licensed RN how can they legally or ethically NOT respond??? And if they do respond and it means they fail to complete CNA duties assigned them, can the DON write them up for it? Seems to me like they are in a catch 22....but apparently nurses aren't supposed to question such things, or they are making a mountain out of a mole hill Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Did you read my post above? |
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OP I think you are misenterpreting the statute. This type of statute is in place to prevent RN's from hiring on to cna positions based on said nursing licensure alone. Say you have an RN whose license expires, or an RN who wants to pick up a second part time job. In either situation, the RN can't take a cna position just because she's an RN and happens to know the CNA job, she would have to have an active cna certification as well as an Rn license. That doesn't mean she can't be delegated a cna "workload" while employed as an RN. For what it's worth a lot of RN's make shitty CNA's, and can't handle the work. I've worked both jobs, and they are both difficult in entirely different ways. Hope that makes sense... I'm not misinterpreting the statute, I'm trying to find the statute so I can read it. Apparently wanting to know what the law actually says makes me a pain in the ass to some on this website. Eta- not directed at you. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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The way I read that document is that an RN can not be hired as a CNA specifically. RNs can, should and do the functions of a CNA everywhere and should be doing those functions as they care for their pt's. Your wife should be legally compensated at her normal pay rate plus applicable overtime pay if there is mandatory overtime involved.
The line gets drawn when you have an advanced degree. For instance my wife will be graduating as a DNP with her FNP, she can't legally perform duties as an RN due to her ability to prescribe and diagnose. I started as a sec/tech (CNA) in the ICUs I worked in before getting my RN, after graduating I still routinely performed the same skills I did as a CNA before graduating. |
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I'm not misinterpreting the statute, I'm trying to find the statute so I can read it. Apparently wanting to know what the law actually says makes me a pain in the ass to some on this website. Eta- not directed at you. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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OP I think you are misenterpreting the statute. This type of statute is in place to prevent RN's from hiring on to cna positions based on said nursing licensure alone. Say you have an RN whose license expires, or an RN who wants to pick up a second part time job. In either situation, the RN can't take a cna position just because she's an RN and happens to know the CNA job, she would have to have an active cna certification as well as an Rn license. That doesn't mean she can't be delegated a cna "workload" while employed as an RN. For what it's worth a lot of RN's make shitty CNA's, and can't handle the work. I've worked both jobs, and they are both difficult in entirely different ways. Hope that makes sense... I'm not misinterpreting the statute, I'm trying to find the statute so I can read it. Apparently wanting to know what the law actually says makes me a pain in the ass to some on this website. Eta- not directed at you. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Forget the statute. I just told you there's nothing legally preventing an RN from being delegated a cna assignment on her regularly scheduled shift. Case fucking closed! 
Eta- sorry I couldn't answer your question. The DON sounds like a hag (most of them are in LTC). You're wife needs to work acute care ASAP. |
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Hit the nail on the head. I would work strictly as a CNA if needed but at the pay of an RN since I will still be liable for certain circumstances that fall within the RN scope of practice. is APRN the same as CCRN ? I just graduated and have my ACLS and PALS, hoping to get hired in the NICU. Quoted:
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Doing the "work of a CNA", is a lot different than signing CNA after your name in legal documentation. Whether you have CNA, RN, or MD after your name, those give you a ceiling of authority, not bottom up authority. Most state BON mandates state that you can't work as a CNA, meaning you can't sign CNA after your name in legal documentation. You can still do the work and duties of a CNA because they are inclusive of the RN duties your wife already has. But will sign as an RN because that is her current licensure. Being paid a CNA rate as an RN is another can of worms, which is what I think your wife's employer is getting at. Doing the work duties and getting paid the rate of a CNA. I would tell them to pound sand. I just graduated from nursing school in December, and turned down multiple hospital and clinic based job offers before starting my current job. If she wants to transition into the hospital, tell her to start working on her ACLS and PALS on her own and get those certs done. Maybe even an APRN. They will look good on a resume, and will open some doors. Hit the nail on the head. I would work strictly as a CNA if needed but at the pay of an RN since I will still be liable for certain circumstances that fall within the RN scope of practice. is APRN the same as CCRN ? I just graduated and have my ACLS and PALS, hoping to get hired in the NICU. It will be difficult getting into a NICU just after school unless you were in a baller internship. Be prepared to work in a peds unit to start out with. Probably in a smaller community hospital. After you get a year of experience you won't have any problems. |
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Forget the statute. I just told you there's nothing legally preventing an RN from being delegated a cna assignment on her regularly scheduled shift. Case fucking closed!
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OP I think you are misenterpreting the statute. This type of statute is in place to prevent RN's from hiring on to cna positions based on said nursing licensure alone. Say you have an RN whose license expires, or an RN who wants to pick up a second part time job. In either situation, the RN can't take a cna position just because she's an RN and happens to know the CNA job, she would have to have an active cna certification as well as an Rn license. That doesn't mean she can't be delegated a cna "workload" while employed as an RN. For what it's worth a lot of RN's make shitty CNA's, and can't handle the work. I've worked both jobs, and they are both difficult in entirely different ways. Hope that makes sense... I'm not misinterpreting the statute, I'm trying to find the statute so I can read it. Apparently wanting to know what the law actually says makes me a pain in the ass to some on this website. Eta- not directed at you. Forget the statute. I just told you there's nothing legally preventing an RN from being delegated a cna assignment on her regularly scheduled shift. Case fucking closed!
My question still stands unanswered. Should a nurse be written up for failing to perform CNA duties if she is responding to a medical emergency as legally required by their RN license? Forget I even asked any other question. How do you answer the question above? We can all agree that a RN can and should perform patient care issues that are similar to a CNA and that a DON can say the RN wasn't working as a CNA if questioned....but his can a DON justify writing someone up for CNA duties if they were responding to something else that is legally required of them? What would you have done? Answer those questions and then the case can be fucking closed. Until then, that's a pretty big fucking question IMO. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Thanks for the info, I'll pass it along to my wife. As far as working strictly as a CNA, one of the issues that arose when an RN was ordered to work as a CNA involved patient weights during the shift. The RN was written up for failing to obtain every patients weight on her unit prior to leaving (a CNA duty at their facility). The issue was that a patient with a trach was having difficulty breathing (as well as some other medical shit I don't understand) and the RN felt she was legally obligated to care for the patient (which she did along with the other RN that was there). The DON wrote her up for failing to perform the CNA duties required of her that evening. So, since it appears that you are a nurse....in that situation what would you have done? Acted as an RN and assisted the other RN in caring for the patient? Or, reported the issue and continue on with your weights? I'm legitimately not trying to be argumentative, I really want to know the answer. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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Doing the "work of a CNA", is a lot different than signing CNA after your name in legal documentation. Whether you have CNA, RN, or MD after your name, those give you a ceiling of authority, not bottom up authority. Most state BON mandates state that you can't work as a CNA, meaning you can't sign CNA after your name in legal documentation. You can still do the work and duties of a CNA because they are inclusive of the RN duties your wife already has. But will sign as an RN because that is her current licensure. Being paid a CNA rate as an RN is another can of worms, which is what I think your wife's employer is getting at. Doing the work duties and getting paid the rate of a CNA. I would tell them to pound sand. I just graduated from nursing school in December, and turned down multiple hospital and clinic based job offers before starting my current job. If she wants to transition into the hospital, tell her to start working on her ACLS and PALS on her own and get those certs done. Maybe even an APRN. They will look good on a resume, and will open some doors. Hit the nail on the head. I would work strictly as a CNA if needed but at the pay of an RN since I will still be liable for certain circumstances that fall within the RN scope of practice. is APRN the same as CCRN ? I just graduated and have my ACLS and PALS, hoping to get hired in the NICU. Thanks for the info, I'll pass it along to my wife. As far as working strictly as a CNA, one of the issues that arose when an RN was ordered to work as a CNA involved patient weights during the shift. The RN was written up for failing to obtain every patients weight on her unit prior to leaving (a CNA duty at their facility). The issue was that a patient with a trach was having difficulty breathing (as well as some other medical shit I don't understand) and the RN felt she was legally obligated to care for the patient (which she did along with the other RN that was there). The DON wrote her up for failing to perform the CNA duties required of her that evening. So, since it appears that you are a nurse....in that situation what would you have done? Acted as an RN and assisted the other RN in caring for the patient? Or, reported the issue and continue on with your weights? I'm legitimately not trying to be argumentative, I really want to know the answer. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I'll throw my 2 cents in as well. I would of acted as an RN in any medical emergency, in the hospital, while working as a CNA. I look at it from the patients perspective, would I want someone to not give me aid because they are not getting compensated enough even though they are qualified to do so ? Hence, why I would insist, if not require, to be compensated as an RN to do a CNAs job. Obtaining weights, vital signs, giving patient care (the nitty gritty stuff) is a CNAs job, so I see why she would get written up. |
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It will be difficult getting into a NICU just after school unless you were in a baller internship. Be prepared to work in a peds unit to start out with. Probably in a smaller community hospital. After you get a year of experience you won't have any problems. Quoted:
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Doing the "work of a CNA", is a lot different than signing CNA after your name in legal documentation. Whether you have CNA, RN, or MD after your name, those give you a ceiling of authority, not bottom up authority. Most state BON mandates state that you can't work as a CNA, meaning you can't sign CNA after your name in legal documentation. You can still do the work and duties of a CNA because they are inclusive of the RN duties your wife already has. But will sign as an RN because that is her current licensure. Being paid a CNA rate as an RN is another can of worms, which is what I think your wife's employer is getting at. Doing the work duties and getting paid the rate of a CNA. I would tell them to pound sand. I just graduated from nursing school in December, and turned down multiple hospital and clinic based job offers before starting my current job. If she wants to transition into the hospital, tell her to start working on her ACLS and PALS on her own and get those certs done. Maybe even an APRN. They will look good on a resume, and will open some doors. Hit the nail on the head. I would work strictly as a CNA if needed but at the pay of an RN since I will still be liable for certain circumstances that fall within the RN scope of practice. is APRN the same as CCRN ? I just graduated and have my ACLS and PALS, hoping to get hired in the NICU. It will be difficult getting into a NICU just after school unless you were in a baller internship. Be prepared to work in a peds unit to start out with. Probably in a smaller community hospital. After you get a year of experience you won't have any problems. Thanks for the heads up. Many students that graduated with me went ICU,RCU, etc right out of school. Of course, they have told me training in somewhere around 6-7 months before they are on their own. |
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The RN's assignment was to complete the CNA duties for that shift. She didn't complete them, so yeah, she could be written up for it. Should she have? IMO, no. That DON sounds like a bitch. Exactly, but I see the DONs point of view. You are working as a CNA, do that first then worry about the rest later. Lady has no moral compass if the RN aided in a emergency and still wrote them up. |
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I understand it happens all the time.....doesn't mean it's kosher. Her facility has routinely been telling nurses that they have to work as a CNA. documentation on Michigans licensing website specifically states that a licensed RN is prohibited by federal law from working as a CNA. The document didn't provide the cite for the law....I was hoping someone here may know it. I can see Ill have to check directly with the state. No wonder it's so easy to take our rights away. Just because something happens all the time does not mean that it's ok. I have a state document staring that it's illegal and everyone on here says get over it, suck it up and do it. Public schools have done wonders for the establishment by teaching everyone not to question their masters. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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You can be made to work in a position lower than your licensure. Happens in hospitals with low census all the time. Want to get a nurse pissed off. Low census them, put them on call, then call them in to babysit a crazy person at 2 am. I understand it happens all the time.....doesn't mean it's kosher. Her facility has routinely been telling nurses that they have to work as a CNA. documentation on Michigans licensing website specifically states that a licensed RN is prohibited by federal law from working as a CNA. The document didn't provide the cite for the law....I was hoping someone here may know it. I can see Ill have to check directly with the state. No wonder it's so easy to take our rights away. Just because something happens all the time does not mean that it's ok. I have a state document staring that it's illegal and everyone on here says get over it, suck it up and do it. Public schools have done wonders for the establishment by teaching everyone not to question their masters. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Was she ever licensed as a CNA in the state of Michigan? If she was, I'd say the DON can do it. If she wasn't, it looks like they can't make her do it. |
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Exactly, but I see the DONs point of view. You are working as a CNA, do that first then worry about the rest later. Lady has no moral compass if the RN aided in a emergency and still wrote them up. Quoted:
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The RN's assignment was to complete the CNA duties for that shift. She didn't complete them, so yeah, she could be written up for it. Should she have? IMO, no. That DON sounds like a bitch. Exactly, but I see the DONs point of view. You are working as a CNA, do that first then worry about the rest later. Lady has no moral compass if the RN aided in a emergency and still wrote them up. You are always held to your highest level of licensure by the board and must act in a "reasonably prudent" manor. Basically in the situation described, by not attending to the respiratory distress issue, she is in danger of losing her license. The DON sounds terrible. Tell your wife to put in her two weeks notice now. It's not worth fighting a bullshit write up, that's just going to be the tip of the iceberg there. Btw RN here also Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Long-term care facilities are the cesspools of health care. 99% of them are Medicare farms. An RN can do CNA/LNA tasks but for her to fill in AS one? I have never heard of it. That facility is FUBAR and I would quit ASAP before incurring career-hindering liability.
FYI, hospitals don't place much regard in long-term care experience. That's another reason such jobs suck. It's also where nurses that get fired at hospitals often end up. She would be much better off to apply to any hospital she can secure a job(and in any department and capacity) at ASAP if she wants to advance her career. WCS, she can switch to per diem at her current facility while working per diem/part-time at a hospital. |
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Long-term care facilities are the cesspools of health care. 99% of them are Medicare farms. An RN can do CNA/LNA tasks but for her to fill in AS one? I have never heard of it. I've seen it quite a bit, even in hospitals. They're overstaffed on RNs, but understaffed on CNAs. An RN is qualified to do everything a CNA can, so...expensive CNA. OP, the RNs working as CNAs are still getting their RN pay right? |
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I am a nursing manager in a LTC facility and if your wife is doing CNA duties then she needs to do the duties and leave the nursing to whoever the nurse is unless there is a major emergency. I would and have written up nurses for not doing the duties they are supposed to do. If she doesn't want to do patient care then she needs to get out of nursing. If she is having this much of an issue with the DON, then she need sto find another job. Good Luck |
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According to the official state of michigan request for exemption for CNA licensing......an RN is PROHIBITED by federal regulations to work as a CNA. |
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Scanned half way down the thread....might have been answered above...
The OP is confusing HIRING someone that has an RN but no CNA certification for a CNA position with what health care providers need to do for patient care. From what I read of the state regulations....if they list a job as 'want to hire a CNA'...they have to get a Certified Nurses Aide. They can't fill the position with an LPN, RN, MD, PhD, etc.....that individual has to have the CNA certificate. So....unless there's a specific list of job duties (which you won't find) that says 'Only someone with a CNA can perform these patient care jobs'...such as clean the bedpan, roll the patient, change the sheets, help the patient to the bathroom, etc.....anyone employed by the facility (and with some licensure as a health care provider) can perform those duties....generally you can have someone with more job duties perform a 'lower' level of care if needed. A Doctor, RN, etc..can clean bedpans (if you can get them to do it), roll the patient, help them to the bathroom, etc....but a CNA can't open the Pyxis and dispense medications... To the OP....if your wife is refusing to do something that needs done for a patient just because it's "CNA work" and she's an RN...that's not going to go over well with administration. However, if she was hired and ALL she is doing is in the scope of a CNA, then she should probably be looking for another job, as the administration there isn't very competent (i.e...they're wasting the scarce health care dollars on a 'higher' level professional for a job they're overqualified for....). AFARR |
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Quoted: See my question above. The problem is that the nurses are being written up for failing to compete specific CNA duties due to completing RN duties that they feel they are legally obligated to do/perform under their license. Remember, this isn't a hospital with dozens of nurses and doctors around. My wife usually has 25 patients as an RN with a few CNAs to help. So when acting as a CNA and a situation arises, do you act as an RN or blow it off since you are a CNA (acting). Cuz the bitch DON doesn't seem to give a shit about your legal responsibilities as a RN if you fail to complete your CNA duties. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted: Quoted: happens all the time. My hospital runs through CNA's like water. They call off all the time. I have seen nurses do the CNA job quite often. Hell I know quite a few that would volunteer to do it as a change of pace or to simply not deal with the day to day drama. The nurses got paid a nurses wage to do a CNA's job. Big deal, the nurse is still a nurse. What jobs do CNA's do that nurses don't do also? See my question above. The problem is that the nurses are being written up for failing to compete specific CNA duties due to completing RN duties that they feel they are legally obligated to do/perform under their license. Remember, this isn't a hospital with dozens of nurses and doctors around. My wife usually has 25 patients as an RN with a few CNAs to help. So when acting as a CNA and a situation arises, do you act as an RN or blow it off since you are a CNA (acting). Cuz the bitch DON doesn't seem to give a shit about your legal responsibilities as a RN if you fail to complete your CNA duties. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |