Posted: 2/10/2014 7:49:22 AM EDT
| I'm in the Air Force Chaplain Candidate Program, and part of my degree is taking a variety of counseling classes. In my crisis counseling class, we're talking about responses to violence, and my professor is citing Grossman's "On Killing." I've read part of it, and it didn't seem that crazy, but I've heard a whole lot people on here bash it. What is the current opinion of On Killing on ARF? |
| I've found this to be an interesting critique of Grossman: http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vo9/no2/16-engen-eng.asp |
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He bases his conclusions on the work of the late Gen. S.L.A.Marshall.
Particularly Marshall's assertions about ratios of fire in WW2 combat. Marshall has pretty much been debunked as having made up his Data out on whole cloth. Grossman also has some distinctly odd notions about video games and pornography. He believes that the popular money shot of a woman on her knees getting a facial is a re-enactment of the male desire to murder women. 
He is a readable writer and a polished speaker. He popularized the whole "Sheepdog" meme But, garbage in, garbage out. Or, so they say. |
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Some (a lot) of what he says is nonsense.
Some makes a bit of sense. His idea of "Fight or Flight" actually being "Fight, Flight, Posture, or Submit" is one of the best things he said, in my opinion. It's good to read his work, but to know where it's coming from, and to remain skeptical. |
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I'm in the Air Force Chaplain Candidate Program, and part of my degree is taking a variety of counseling classes. In my crisis counseling class, we're talking about responses to violence, and my professor is citing Grossman's "On Killing." I've read part of it, and it didn't seem that crazy, but I've heard a whole lot people on here bash it. What is the current opinion of On Killing on ARF? It's the Air Force. It's not like they kill anyone 
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Good book, worth reading and thinking about. But not the last word for sure. I both agree and disagree with him. Much of psychology and the conclusions we draw from observation is shaped by our worldview we bring in as the observer. No such thing as a neutral observer. I guess much of it depends on your view of the sinfulness of man ie is man basically good or evil in his 'natural' state. |
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Some love him and some hate him. Some feel every word he said is gospel and some seem to have a rabid hate for any and all things he says. I think a lot of what he says makes sense. I will say the first half of the book was a very tough read for me. After about mid ways through it, it got much easier. Read and take what you will from it. I might be opening a can of worms but I agree with a lot of his assessment about the video games. Not everyone that plays a violent video game will turn into a killer but if you already have something twisted in your brain it isn't going to help any. Per many studies I've seen the ratio of psychopaths in society at large is pretty high. Give them a stimulus that further celebrates killing and it just makes it that much easier if the right switches eventually get flipped.
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Some love him and some hate him. Some feel every word he said is gospel and some seem to have a rabid hate for any and all things he says. I think a lot of what he says makes sense. I will say the first half of the book was a very tough read for me. After about mid ways through it, it got much easier. Read and take what you will from it. I might be opening a can of worms but I agree with a lot of his assessment about the video games. Not everyone that plays a violent video game will turn into a killer but if you already have something twisted in your brain it isn't going to help any. Per many studies I've seen the ratio of psychopaths in society at large is pretty high. Give them a stimulus that further celebrates killing and it just makes it that much easier if the right switches eventually get flipped. There is evidence to support that violent video games act as sort of a replacement for real violence for those people. It allows them to fill that void and act out violence without actually hurting anyone. Also, while there has been a massive increase in violent video games in the past few years, the rate of mass shootings has remained the same. No increase and in fact there has been a decrease in some forms of violence and crimes. It may "make sense" that violent video games (or tv shows, or movies, or rap music) will make someone violent when you first hear the concept, but, as with most things, it is more complicated than that. ETA: As for Grossman, it is my opinion that his books are a must read especially for someone in your field, just don't take everything he says as gospel. I shouldn't have to tell you, there's always more to the story. |
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Quoted: There is evidence to support that violent video games act as sort of a replacement for real violence for those people. It allows them to fill that void and act out violence without actually hurting anyone. Also, while there has been a massive increase in violent video games in the past few years, the rate of mass shootings has remained the same. No increase and in fact there has been a decrease in some forms of violence and crimes. It may "make sense" that violent video games (or tv shows, or movies, or rap music) will make someone violent when you first hear the concept, but, as with most things, it is more complicated than that. ETA: As for Grossman, it is my opinion that his books are a must read especially for someone in your field, just don't take everything he says as gospel. I shouldn't have to tell you, there's always more to the story. Quoted: Quoted: Some love him and some hate him. Some feel every word he said is gospel and some seem to have a rabid hate for any and all things he says. I think a lot of what he says makes sense. I will say the first half of the book was a very tough read for me. After about mid ways through it, it got much easier. Read and take what you will from it. I might be opening a can of worms but I agree with a lot of his assessment about the video games. Not everyone that plays a violent video game will turn into a killer but if you already have something twisted in your brain it isn't going to help any. Per many studies I've seen the ratio of psychopaths in society at large is pretty high. Give them a stimulus that further celebrates killing and it just makes it that much easier if the right switches eventually get flipped. There is evidence to support that violent video games act as sort of a replacement for real violence for those people. It allows them to fill that void and act out violence without actually hurting anyone. Also, while there has been a massive increase in violent video games in the past few years, the rate of mass shootings has remained the same. No increase and in fact there has been a decrease in some forms of violence and crimes. It may "make sense" that violent video games (or tv shows, or movies, or rap music) will make someone violent when you first hear the concept, but, as with most things, it is more complicated than that. ETA: As for Grossman, it is my opinion that his books are a must read especially for someone in your field, just don't take everything he says as gospel. I shouldn't have to tell you, there's always more to the story. |
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Agreed. Is why I recommended reading and taking what you want from his books. And is also why I said if the right switches in the brain get flipped. Games in my opinion just help with the mental conditioning aspect. I don't believe it turns anyone into anything. I just think if you already have that twist that it makes it that much easier. And yes I know people have been killing other people for thousands of years. Quoted:
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Some love him and some hate him. Some feel every word he said is gospel and some seem to have a rabid hate for any and all things he says. I think a lot of what he says makes sense. I will say the first half of the book was a very tough read for me. After about mid ways through it, it got much easier. Read and take what you will from it. I might be opening a can of worms but I agree with a lot of his assessment about the video games. Not everyone that plays a violent video game will turn into a killer but if you already have something twisted in your brain it isn't going to help any. Per many studies I've seen the ratio of psychopaths in society at large is pretty high. Give them a stimulus that further celebrates killing and it just makes it that much easier if the right switches eventually get flipped. There is evidence to support that violent video games act as sort of a replacement for real violence for those people. It allows them to fill that void and act out violence without actually hurting anyone. Also, while there has been a massive increase in violent video games in the past few years, the rate of mass shootings has remained the same. No increase and in fact there has been a decrease in some forms of violence and crimes. It may "make sense" that violent video games (or tv shows, or movies, or rap music) will make someone violent when you first hear the concept, but, as with most things, it is more complicated than that. ETA: As for Grossman, it is my opinion that his books are a must read especially for someone in your field, just don't take everything he says as gospel. I shouldn't have to tell you, there's always more to the story. You guys just keep your grubby hands off of my Battlefield 4 
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Chaplain,
I have read On Killing, and IMHO it is pretty good, and pretty accurate. That being said, in the context that your class is discussing counseling, I recommend you put the book down and pick up "On Combat", by the same author. His depictions of PTSD and counseling in "On Combat, the later work, is excellent, and much more pertinent to your needs. I have heard LTC Grossman speak a couple of times and his focus has expanded in a few directions...PTSD counseling as he discusses in "On Combat" was based on his talking and interaction with police and .mil. He discusses a couple of different concepts in how the brain is wired post-PTSD that are very insightful. Specifically, I remember the analogy of the old lady who has lived with her husband for fifty years, and then he passes away. You cant advise her to forget he existed, or get over it, and the neurons of her brain are wired a certain way. There are techniques for helping her move forward but you have to create a new path where her life experiences (or for that matter, a single traumatic event) has blown a superhighway thrugh her brain, and small stimuli will start the neurons along that superhighway to fire. That is my recollection of the book and the talk. Been a few years. There is far more utility in his later work. I would also recommend Jonathan Shay if youhave not done so. |
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It's the Air Force. It's not like they kill anyone Quoted:
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I'm in the Air Force Chaplain Candidate Program, and part of my degree is taking a variety of counseling classes. In my crisis counseling class, we're talking about responses to violence, and my professor is citing Grossman's "On Killing." I've read part of it, and it didn't seem that crazy, but I've heard a whole lot people on here bash it. What is the current opinion of On Killing on ARF? It's the Air Force. It's not like they kill anyone They actually have a better kill rating then the ground forces.....usually civilians, but none-the-less. |
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Grossman is an intriguing and thought-provoking speaker. His concepts about school security and comparing it to fire prevention/fire drills, I thought, were spot on, and a rare view of the concept.
Not everything he says is dynamite, and some of his research is questionable, but he makes you think. |
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I think it is a very good book, though I don't fully buy into everything Grossman says. I highly recommend that a chaplain read it, if for no other reason than to use as a thought stimulator, or a frame of reference. I think of it as realistic theory supported by some facts. Psychology is considered a humanity, and not a science for a reason.
I once had to see a chaplain as a part of mandatory out processing after deployment. He asked a few questions and talked to me for a while. Then he proceeded to give the battle mind class to me. I thought oh great here goes another mandatory class. Then he applied it to my situation. He made some spot on detailed assumptions about me, not knowing anything about me previously. He then gave some very helpful suggestions for how to adjust my life and decision making process to get back to having a normal life instead of treating the rest of my llfe like I'm in combat. It was extremely helpful. He could have handed me a flier, or rushed me out of his office, I'm sure he was busy. I asked him if he could just sign the paper because I was busy and in a hurry. He did the right thing, spent 10 minutes with me, and forever changed my life for the better. Good chaplains are priceless. |
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This. I cringe every time I hear someone say it and they're actually serious. Quoted:
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He popularized the whole "Sheepdog" meme Reason enough to hate him, right there. This. I cringe every time I hear someone say it and they're actually serious. Sheepdog meme? All I'm finding is this |
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He bases his conclusions on the work of the late Gen. S.L.A.Marshall. Particularly Marshall's assertions about ratios of fire in WW2 combat. Marshall has pretty much been debunked as having made up his Data out on whole cloth. Grossman also has some distinctly odd notions about video games and pornography. He believes that the popular money shot of a woman on her knees getting a facial is a re-enactment of the male desire to murder women.
He is a readable writer and a polished speaker. He popularized the whole "Sheepdog" meme But, garbage in, garbage out. Or, so they say. I wonder what he thinks of the "Hetero-cage" |
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On the video game thing:
I've always thought that playing "mock" combat through video games does desensitize people to violence, but I saw that as a good thing. I played a lot of shooting video games immediately after returning from deployment, and it made the stuff that happened in Afghanistan seem less real and visceral in parts of my mind. I wasn't really affected by what little fighting we did (compared to others), but I think playing video games even made that impact less. |
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Quoted: I've found this to be an interesting critique of Grossman: http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vo9/no2/16-engen-eng.asp  |
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Didn't read it. I got secretly annoyed every time the sheepdog analogy came up. Doing bad things to bad people has never troubled me. It's rarely the doing-bad-things-to-bad-people that gets people, it's when they perceive a personal screw up and innocents or good guys die. Shooting at bad guys was fun. Dealing with hurt innocents was not fun. Not being able to save all the hurt people in a mascal event is really really not fun. |
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Wow, the theory that Marshall was just full of shit when he claimed most soldiers did not fire at the enemy Quoted:
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I've found this to be an interesting critique of Grossman: http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vo9/no2/16-engen-eng.asp Does that mean you believe Marshall? |
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He bases his conclusions on the work of the late Gen. S.L.A.Marshall. Particularly Marshall's assertions about ratios of fire in WW2 combat. Marshall has pretty much been debunked as having made up his Data out on whole cloth. Grossman also has some distinctly odd notions about video games and pornography. He believes that the popular money shot of a woman on her knees getting a facial is a re-enactment of the male desire to murder women.
He is a readable writer and a polished speaker. He popularized the whole "Sheepdog" meme But, garbage in, garbage out. Or, so they say. I thought he was talking about dominance not killing but it has been a few years. |
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He bases his conclusions on the work of the late Gen. S.L.A.Marshall. Particularly Marshall's assertions about ratios of fire in WW2 combat. Marshall has pretty much been debunked as having made up his Data out on whole cloth. Grossman also has some distinctly odd notions about video games and pornography. He believes that the popular money shot of a woman on her knees getting a facial is a re-enactment of the male desire to murder women.
He is a readable writer and a polished speaker. He popularized the whole "Sheepdog" meme But, garbage in, garbage out. Or, so they say. Double Tap |
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I have his books, I have heard him speak. His numbers are utter bullshit. Some of his opinions are absolute crap.
He does have an interesting point that I took away from his lecture series. Fireman are winning. We have smoke alarm this, fire extinguisher that, required egress planning. fire drills.. etc.. As a society, we have failed to prepare for the active shooter. He has a very energetic in person. While I disagreed with some of his ideals, I do enjoy listening to him speak. |
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Quoted: Does that mean you believe Marshall? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've found this to be an interesting critique of Grossman: http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vo9/no2/16-engen-eng.asp Does that mean you believe Marshall? |
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He bases his conclusions on the work of the late Gen. S.L.A.Marshall. Particularly Marshall's assertions about ratios of fire in WW2 combat. Marshall has pretty much been debunked as having made up his Data out on whole cloth. Grossman also has some distinctly odd notions about video games and pornography. He believes that the popular money shot of a woman on her knees getting a facial is a re-enactment of the male desire to murder women.
He is a readable writer and a polished speaker. He popularized the whole "Sheepdog" meme But, garbage in, garbage out. Or, so they say. Exactly what I thought. His views on video games don't seem to hold up at all. |