Posted: 8/31/2013 2:44:59 PM EDT
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So my buddies birthday is in a couple days and the poor bastard doesn't have a .22lr. I saw Gander was having a sale on the Marlin 795's for $130, and I knew he liked the Marlin 60 so I figured what the hell, I'm gonna go get it for him.
I don't remember exactly how it came up but the guy at Gander has asked me something and I mentioned it was going to be a gift, and he said that was a straw purchase and yadda yadda. I told him I thought he was incorrect and that it was only a straw purchase if I was buying it with his money, for him. We went back and forth a couple times but he finally said that it was fine as long as I was purchasing it for me, so I said, yep that's what I'm doing. He rang it up, did the background check and we were good to go. So my question is....was he mistaken or was I? I know I shoulda kept my mouth shut regardless and avoided the whole thing, but it just came out accidentally. |
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Gifts are allowed of firearms as long as the person you are giving it to meets all legal requirements Federal State and local to have the gun..I gave a rifle
to my Fiance's son after I purchased it but since he was out of state I had to go through an FFL to do it background check etc. no problems. A "straw purchase" is buying the gun for someone who is ineligible to buy firearms legally. |
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That's what I figured. I think he might have just been trying to make sure he/the company was covered since he did eventually proceed with the transaction once I just said I was the purchaser. That seemed to satisfy him, and he didn't seem to care what I did with it after I was gone....which should be expected.
edit: and no, my friend isn't a prohibited person |
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So long as he isn't a prohibited person it isn't a straw purchase. Incorrect. It doesn't matter if you're buying it for a person who can or can't legally own the gun. If you purchase a gun for someone else, it's a straw purchase, even if they can legally possess it. For example, if you see a gun your buddy might like, call hi and he says to buy it for him, it's a straw purchase. The only exception is a legitimate gift, with no compensation in return. The OP's situation was not a straw purchase. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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So long as he isn't a prohibited person it isn't a straw purchase. No. You cannot buy a gun for someone else unless it is a gift. According to the 4473 you are the actual buyer if you intend to gift the firearm. OP, what you described is legal per the ATF. It is written in black and white on the form. |
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You gave the counter idiot to much info he didn't need to know.  Yeah I know. I think he was telling me about their "warranty" which I normally would just say no to but because the gun would be going to my friend I thought it might benefit him. I asked if it was transferable and ended up having to explain why to not look...weird. |
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Incorrect. It doesn't matter if you're buying it for a person who can or can't legally own the gun. If you purchase a gun for someone else, it's a straw purchase, even if they can legally possess it. For example, if you see a gun your buddy might like, call hi and he says to buy it for him, it's a straw purchase. The only exception is a legitimate gift, with no compensation in return. The OP's situation was not a straw purchase. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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So long as he isn't a prohibited person it isn't a straw purchase. Incorrect. It doesn't matter if you're buying it for a person who can or can't legally own the gun. If you purchase a gun for someone else, it's a straw purchase, even if they can legally possess it. For example, if you see a gun your buddy might like, call hi and he says to buy it for him, it's a straw purchase. The only exception is a legitimate gift, with no compensation in return. The OP's situation was not a straw purchase. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Please quote the federal law that states that. |
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Please quote the federal law that states that. Quoted:
Quoted:
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So long as he isn't a prohibited person it isn't a straw purchase. Incorrect. It doesn't matter if you're buying it for a person who can or can't legally own the gun. If you purchase a gun for someone else, it's a straw purchase, even if they can legally possess it. For example, if you see a gun your buddy might like, call hi and he says to buy it for him, it's a straw purchase. The only exception is a legitimate gift, with no compensation in return. The OP's situation was not a straw purchase. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Please quote the federal law that states that. That law has almost nothing to do with what the ATF will or won't do. |
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Please quote the federal law that states that. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So long as he isn't a prohibited person it isn't a straw purchase. Incorrect. It doesn't matter if you're buying it for a person who can or can't legally own the gun. If you purchase a gun for someone else, it's a straw purchase, even if they can legally possess it. For example, if you see a gun your buddy might like, call hi and he says to buy it for him, it's a straw purchase. The only exception is a legitimate gift, with no compensation in return. The OP's situation was not a straw purchase. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Please quote the federal law that states that. It is right there in black and white on the 4473 |
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Case law has ruled that a straw purchase only happens when the person that ends up with the gun is a prohibited person.
9th circuit ruled someone can be prosecuted for a false statement on a 4473, but it is still not an illegal straw purchase if the person that gets the Gun is legal to possess it. There’s no question but that straw purchases took place. But since the Gamez brothers and the pretend buyers were Arizona adults with clean records, and no evidence was introduced that a prohibited person wound up with a gun, the “yes” answers, while false, weren’t materially so. That view has been endorsed by appeals courts. In U.S. v. Polk, the only known case directly on point [that’s changed - see note below], the Fifth Circuit held that “if the true purchaser can lawfully purchase a firearm directly, § 922(a)(6) liability under a ‘straw purchase’ theory does not attach.” More recently, in U.S. v. Ortiz, the Eleventh Circuit ruled that “straw purchases of firearms occur when an unlawful purchaser...uses a lawful ‘straw man’ purchaser...to obtain a firearm [emphasis added].”
When the 1968 Gun Control Act was enacted Form 4473 didn’t ask buyers about their intentions. Lacking the political muscle to change the law, ATF got permission to insert what became Question 11(a) on the form (making clear that gift purchases were OK, of course.) This extralegal tinkering was mentioned in a footnote of the Polk decision, which pointed out that the 1991 and 1994 editions of the ATF Form 7 carried significantly different warnings. While the earlier form advised that a straw purchase was illegal when the intended possessor is ineligible to buy a gun, the more recent version made no such mention, thus leaving the impression that all straw purchases are no-no’s. But § 922(a)(6) hadn’t changed: just like 18 USC § 1001, the general false statements provision of Federal law, it’s always forbidden only material falsehoods. And that’s where things stand today [that’s changed - see note below]. ... Note: In U.S. v. Johnson (no. 11-10290, 5/29/12) the Ninth Circuit ruled that when a straw purchaser falsely answers “no” to question 11(a) on an ATF Form 4473, it is prosecutable as a false statement even if the real, underlying buyer is eligible to buy guns. That sets up a conflict between Circuits that the Supreme Court may be called on to resolve. Link ETA. The ATF 4473 questions do not make law. |
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From the ATF, 4473: Page 4, Question 11.a is the relevant part.
http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf OP is still good to go! 
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Gifts are allowed of firearms as long as the person you are giving it to meets all legal requirements Federal State and local to have the gun..I gave a rifle to my Fiance's son after I purchased it but since he was out of state I had to go through an FFL to do it background check etc. no problems. A "straw purchase" is buying the gun for someone who is ineligible to buy firearms legally. That USED to be the commonly accepted definition, even BY ATF. Now however, except as a gift if you purchase a firearm with the purpose to transfer it to someone else, its considered a straw-purchase. For example, There's a Sale at the LGS I cant make it because of work. I give you the money to go pick upbthe gun for me. Even though i am not a Prohibited Person, we are technically committing a felony because you are not the "Purchaser" of the firearm. Hell here in NJ it was a COMMON practice, you coudl get a Handgun Purchase permit at 18, but due to state law you could NOT purchase a handgun from a Dealer. Common practice was for a friend over 21 to get a permit, pick up the gun and transfer it to your permit. Common enough that the PD ROUTINELY did it if they has new officers under the age of 21 who wanted to buy an off-duty gun or BUG to have the Admin Captain do the transfer on his permit. They've subsequently stopped allowing permits for anyone under 21 now, so its a moot point. |
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Gifts are not straw purchases as long as the person is not prohibited besides an exception, like your son or daughter below the age of 18.
Granted it may have not been a straw purchase in your case I would've just gave him a gift card and had him pick it up. Some stores but not all require the original owner to send it in for repair (not sure if GM has this rule but I know Academy does), or to get serial number information, many of the times you need to have the original owner come in if need (ie gun stolen, and yes another Academy rule) |
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That USED to be the commonly accepted definition, even BY ATF. Now however, except as a gift if you purchase a firearm with the purpose to transfer it to someone else, its considered a straw-purchase. For example, There's a Sale at the LGS I cant make it because of work. I give you the money to go pick upbthe gun for me. Even though i am not a Prohibited Person, we are technically committing a felony because you are not the "Purchaser" of the firearm. Hell here in NJ it was a COMMON practice, you coudl get a Handgun Purchase permit at 18, but due to state law you could NOT purchase a handgun from a Dealer. Common practice was for a friend over 21 to get a permit, pick up the gun and transfer it to your permit. Common enough that the PD ROUTINELY did it if they has new officers under the age of 21 who wanted to buy an off-duty gun or BUG to have the Admin Captain do the transfer on his permit. They've subsequently stopped allowing permits for anyone under 21 now, so its a moot point. Quoted:
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Gifts are allowed of firearms as long as the person you are giving it to meets all legal requirements Federal State and local to have the gun..I gave a rifle to my Fiance's son after I purchased it but since he was out of state I had to go through an FFL to do it background check etc. no problems. A "straw purchase" is buying the gun for someone who is ineligible to buy firearms legally. That USED to be the commonly accepted definition, even BY ATF. Now however, except as a gift if you purchase a firearm with the purpose to transfer it to someone else, its considered a straw-purchase. For example, There's a Sale at the LGS I cant make it because of work. I give you the money to go pick upbthe gun for me. Even though i am not a Prohibited Person, we are technically committing a felony because you are not the "Purchaser" of the firearm. Hell here in NJ it was a COMMON practice, you coudl get a Handgun Purchase permit at 18, but due to state law you could NOT purchase a handgun from a Dealer. Common practice was for a friend over 21 to get a permit, pick up the gun and transfer it to your permit. Common enough that the PD ROUTINELY did it if they has new officers under the age of 21 who wanted to buy an off-duty gun or BUG to have the Admin Captain do the transfer on his permit. They've subsequently stopped allowing permits for anyone under 21 now, so its a moot point. No. Read the case law I posted above. The ATF wants you to think so, and that is what they tell FFLs but that s not what the federal statute or case law says. |
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You can buy it with his money and its still not a straw purchase. Straw purchase if you buy it for him cause he cant legally buy it himself. Wrong. So wrong that it boggles the mind how wrong it is. Straw has nothing to do with prohibited person status. Straw is when you're not the actual purchaser, regardless of status |
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You can buy it with his money and its still not a straw purchase. Straw purchase if you buy it for him cause he cant legally buy it himself. Not true. You can buy it w/ you money as a gift for him. If he gives you the money and asks you to buy it, then it's a straw purchase. Doesn't matter if he's prohibited. |
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You can buy it with his money and its still not a straw purchase. Straw purchase if you buy it for him cause he cant legally buy it himself. Wrong. So wrong that it boggles the mind how wrong it is. Straw has nothing to do with prohibited person status. Straw is when you're not the actual purchaser, regardless of status |
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Gifts are not straw purchases as long as the person is not prohibited besides an exception, like your son or daughter below the age of 18. Granted it may have not been a straw purchase in your case I would've just gave him a gift card and had him pick it up. Some stores but not all require the original owner to send it in for repair (not sure if GM has this rule but I know Academy does), or to get serial number information, many of the times you need to have the original owner come in if need (ie gun stolen, and yes another Academy rule) If it needs to be sent in he can handle that through the manufacturer, so I don't understand what Gander would have to do with it(unless your talking about store warranty, like he was trying to sell me). Obviously if it's stolen they are going to run the serial number and it will come back to me, that's expected, I will just say I gave it to my friend as a birthday present and that's that. |
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If it needs to be sent in he can handle that through the manufacturer, so I don't understand what Gander would have to do with it(unless your talking about store warranty, like he was trying to sell me). Obviously if it's stolen they are going to run the serial number and it will come back to me, that's expected, I will just say I gave it to my friend as a birthday present and that's that. Quoted:
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Gifts are not straw purchases as long as the person is not prohibited besides an exception, like your son or daughter below the age of 18. Granted it may have not been a straw purchase in your case I would've just gave him a gift card and had him pick it up. Some stores but not all require the original owner to send it in for repair (not sure if GM has this rule but I know Academy does), or to get serial number information, many of the times you need to have the original owner come in if need (ie gun stolen, and yes another Academy rule) If it needs to be sent in he can handle that through the manufacturer, so I don't understand what Gander would have to do with it(unless your talking about store warranty, like he was trying to sell me). Obviously if it's stolen they are going to run the serial number and it will come back to me, that's expected, I will just say I gave it to my friend as a birthday present and that's that. Generally dealing with the manufacture is easy, but a firearm has to be signed off in order to receive it, the store helps avoid failed drop offs, but like I stated many stores require the original owner in order for them to send it off (if it was purchased from their location) |