[ARCHIVED THREAD] - State Defense Forces? (Page 1 of 7)
Posted: 8/30/2013 1:42:41 PM EDT
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Why the fuck do these still exist?
SDF Wiki I played around with Ohio's for a little bit, but fuck me, it's gayer than eight guys fucking nine guys. No money, no weapons, obsolete gear and uniform requirements, no mission. Good men, don't get me wrong, both prior fed military and non prior. But Goddamn. And as far as I can tell, they're all like this. I'll reup in the NG. Rant over. 
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I guess I should ask, why do they exist in their current state?
I'm all for having a state militia independent of the National Guard, but if you're gonna have one, commit to it. Either go all out to make it function, or disband it. Otherwise, you're wasting good mens' time. |
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I guess I should ask, why do they exist in their current state? I'm all for having a state militia independent of the National Guard, but if you're gonna have one, commit to it. Either go all out to make it function, or disband it. Otherwise, you're wasting good mens' time. I am guessing most states dont really want to have state militias. Its just some holdover from another time and nobody has expended the legislative energy to get rid of them. |
| When I was recruiting for the National Guard, the GASDF was where we'd refer the guys who really wanted to serve but didn't have a prayer of getting into the actual military. I don't know why anyone who was able to be in the real military would choose the SDF instead. |
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hey hey hey, somebody has to guard the NG armories when they get called up for riots and floods.
I had one of the CA guys try to recruit me when I was at a booth at a county fair for a Ham Radio emergency group. "Oh, you must be interested in community service in emergencies, we have a real role here in the state." I let him go on for a while. Then I asked him if he knew a certain brother of a good friend. "Why yes, MSG xxx is in my unit." "I've known him since I was in 6th grade, I wouldn't in anyway be associated with a group that puts him in a position of authority. Besides, with a Federal commission, I can't join." |
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When I was recruiting for the National Guard, the GASDF was where we'd refer the guys who really wanted to serve but didn't have a prayer of getting into the actual military. I don't know why anyone who was able to be in the real military would choose the SDF instead. Not being subject to serving in Title 10 status under someone like Obama, and wanting to actually serve your state and not the Feds, would be good reasons. But yes, from everything I've read, heard and seen, the state guards are clown shows. |
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Why the fuck do these still exist? SDF Wiki I played around with Ohio's for a little bit, but fuck me, it's gayer than eight guys fucking nine guys. No money, no weapons, obsolete gear and uniform requirements, no mission. Good men, don't get me wrong, both prior fed military and non prior. But Goddamn. And as far as I can tell, they're all like this. I'll reup in the NG. Rant over. None of the State militias are worth much, and few are armed in part or in whole. It's sad because a strong militia has traditionally in the English-speaking world (and really, in parts of Continental Europe, too, such as Switzerland and the Netherlands) been a major bulwark of liberty, a check against central military power and government usurpations of power and other excesses. The National Guard Association of the U.S. played a major role in the diminishment of the militias and has in the past lobbied against their reestablishment (even during the world wars). Of course, in most States, the militia was already in substantial decline before the National Guard as we know it was created. I'm all for States having militias, but if you're going to do it, at least make it worthwhile. I do think, though, that a major obstacle to an all-volunteer model is not only the issues you present but also the stigma of being in a State military organization as opposed to the national military, especially for those who have not served in the national military. IMO it's not warranted in a general sense, although some individuals through their own actions can certainly be singled out for ridicule. Personally, I would like to see something along the lines of the Cold War era Swis system modified to suit the U.S. and the individual States, but being universal for male citizens in theory but not in practice (since there is no need for tens of millions of militiamen and that would be expensive, too), and which includes heavy weapons, aircraft, etc. in its armament and not just small arms. The idea of conscritption (essential to any good militia system, IMO) will not fly very well, whatever the scale or model adopted. |
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hey hey hey, somebody has to guard the NG armories when they get called up for riots and floods. I had one of the CA guys try to recruit me when I was at a booth at a county fair for a Ham Radio emergency group. "Oh, you must be interested in community service in emergencies, we have a real role here in the state." I let him go on for a while. Then I asked him if he knew a certain brother of a good friend. "Why yes, MSG xxx is in my unit." "I've known him since I was in 6th grade, I wouldn't in anyway be associated with a group that puts him in a position of authority. Besides, with a Federal commission, I can't join." CA does have some state(sort of) reserve corps that are not a bunch of weirdo's. But they are medical and do not involve playing dress-up in camo.  That little fact seems to weed out the weirdo's pretty well, along with requiring some level of professional qualifications.
There are a good number of MRC units along the coastal areas (most are around SF and LA). CA Medical Reserve Corps There are also the veterinary units. CA Veterinary Medical Reserve Corps CAVMRC Facebook With the number of VFDs, volunteer SAR units, and the MRCs its pretty clear these SDF units are about playing dress-up. |
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There is the Texas State Guard, they seem to spend all their time shoplifting and trying to get freebies as a "soldier".
They show up at any major incident (Like Hurricane Rita) and run around with WalMart walkie talkies that they call "comms". A typical statement would be, "I worked comms at (fill in the blank) Usually, they just bother people and get in the way. Chances are damn good they have emergency lights hidden in their car grill. 
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Did you ever ground guide an Apache? I got a ration of shit for posting that... But it was a cool experience. There were 3 helicopters setting up for static display at the travelling Vietnam Veteran's Memorial (the travelling wall). I've got video of it somewhere. 
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Personally, I would like to see something along the lines of the Cold War era Swis system modified to suit the U.S. and the individual States, but being universal for male citizens in theory but not in practice (since there is no need for tens of millions of militiamen and that would be expensive, too), and which includes heavy weapons, aircraft, etc. in its armament and not just small arms. Eh. Heavy weapons and artillery gets expensive fast. Really, just a few weeks of training, some first aid, basic marksmanship, and rock simple tactics would get 80% of the benefit for 10% of the cost. |
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I guess I should ask, why do they exist in their current state? I'm all for having a state militia independent of the National Guard, but if you're gonna have one, commit to it. Either go all out to make it function, or disband it. Otherwise, you're wasting good mens' time. Why? |
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Why the fuck do these still exist? SDF Wiki I played around with Ohio's for a little bit, but fuck me, it's gayer than eight guys fucking nine guys. No money, no weapons, obsolete gear and uniform requirements, no mission. Good men, don't get me wrong, both prior fed military and non prior. But Goddamn. And as far as I can tell, they're all like this. I'll reup in the NG. Rant over. NY Guard actually does stuff, not anything the NG couldn't do, but they do disaster relief and such, along with assisting search & rescue. Uniforms are pretty modern as well, ACU's with a black patrol cap. 
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I got a ration of shit for posting that... But it was a cool experience. There were 3 helicopters setting up for static display at the travelling Vietnam Veteran's Memorial (the travelling wall). I've got video of it somewhere.
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Did you ever ground guide an Apache? I got a ration of shit for posting that... But it was a cool experience. There were 3 helicopters setting up for static display at the travelling Vietnam Veteran's Memorial (the travelling wall). I've got video of it somewhere.
Holy shit. I haven't seen you around in years. |
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NY Guard actually does stuff, not anything the NG couldn't do, but they do disaster relief and such, along with assisting search & rescue. Uniforms are pretty modern as well, ACU's with a black patrol cap. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/New_York_state_guard_Military_Police.jpeg Quoted:
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Why the fuck do these still exist? SDF Wiki I played around with Ohio's for a little bit, but fuck me, it's gayer than eight guys fucking nine guys. No money, no weapons, obsolete gear and uniform requirements, no mission. Good men, don't get me wrong, both prior fed military and non prior. But Goddamn. And as far as I can tell, they're all like this. I'll reup in the NG. Rant over. NY Guard actually does stuff, not anything the NG couldn't do, but they do disaster relief and such, along with assisting search & rescue. Uniforms are pretty modern as well, ACU's with a black patrol cap. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/New_York_state_guard_Military_Police.jpeg That's sooo tactical..... 
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Holy shit. I haven't seen you around in years. Quoted:
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Did you ever ground guide an Apache? I got a ration of shit for posting that... But it was a cool experience. There were 3 helicopters setting up for static display at the travelling Vietnam Veteran's Memorial (the travelling wall). I've got video of it somewhere.
Holy shit. I haven't seen you around in years. I read ARFCOM all the time. I pop in when people poke fun at me, to enhance their experience.
I ran out of "give a fucks" long ago, and just hope anyone I ever offended is happy and healthy on their own terms.
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There is the Texas State Guard, they seem to spend all their time shoplifting and trying to get freebies as a "soldier". They show up at any major incident (Like Hurricane Rita) and run around with WalMart walkie talkies that they call "comms". A typical statement would be, "I worked comms at (fill in the blank) Usually, they just bother people and get in the way. Chances are damn good they have emergency lights hidden in their car grill. LOL I met one of their "1 stars" at an event once. He was a retired major. |
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Eh. Heavy weapons and artillery gets expensive fast. Really, just a few weeks of training, some first aid, basic marksmanship, and rock simple tactics would get 80% of the benefit for 10% of the cost. Quoted:
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Personally, I would like to see something along the lines of the Cold War era Swis system modified to suit the U.S. and the individual States, but being universal for male citizens in theory but not in practice (since there is no need for tens of millions of militiamen and that would be expensive, too), and which includes heavy weapons, aircraft, etc. in its armament and not just small arms. Eh. Heavy weapons and artillery gets expensive fast. Really, just a few weeks of training, some first aid, basic marksmanship, and rock simple tactics would get 80% of the benefit for 10% of the cost. You wouldn't need a ton of them. The benefit of the Swiss model is the very low personnel costs. With the Cold War model they could afford to spend over 50 percent of their military budget on weaponry (to include complete weapons as spares plus spare parts), which is for a militia that was solely responsible for national defence (which would not be the case for State militias, obviously). An all-infantry force is rather limited with regard to the political role of the militia and is wholly dependent on the national military for a number of purposes related to external defence. I do like the Swiss training model, which over a 40-year period of service only involved about a year's worth of training for a private militiaman. Hardly a burden, which is one of its benefits, while providing enough training to bring a reasonable level of competency to the militia. I could see maybe having a sort of 1st tier for the unorganized militia that allows them to participate in some training (without pay, or little pay, unlike the organized militia) and just requires them to have a suitable rifle and basic equipment, some sort of insignia (brassards perhaps), clothing suitable for field use, and marksmanship practice in addition to the organized militia as a way to cheaply bolster it in an emergency. |
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Eh. Heavy weapons and artillery gets expensive fast. Really, just a few weeks of training, some first aid, basic marksmanship, and rock simple tactics would get 80% of the benefit for 10% of the cost. Quoted:
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Personally, I would like to see something along the lines of the Cold War era Swis system modified to suit the U.S. and the individual States, but being universal for male citizens in theory but not in practice (since there is no need for tens of millions of militiamen and that would be expensive, too), and which includes heavy weapons, aircraft, etc. in its armament and not just small arms. Eh. Heavy weapons and artillery gets expensive fast. Really, just a few weeks of training, some first aid, basic marksmanship, and rock simple tactics would get 80% of the benefit for 10% of the cost. Agreed. For a force that is very unlikely to ever have to deploy, that's pretty much just the right fit. |
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NY Guard actually does stuff, not anything the NG couldn't do, but they do disaster relief and such, along with assisting search & rescue. Uniforms are pretty modern as well, ACU's with a black patrol cap. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/New_York_state_guard_Military_Police.jpeg Quoted:
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Why the fuck do these still exist? SDF Wiki I played around with Ohio's for a little bit, but fuck me, it's gayer than eight guys fucking nine guys. No money, no weapons, obsolete gear and uniform requirements, no mission. Good men, don't get me wrong, both prior fed military and non prior. But Goddamn. And as far as I can tell, they're all like this. I'll reup in the NG. Rant over. NY Guard actually does stuff, not anything the NG couldn't do, but they do disaster relief and such, along with assisting search & rescue. Uniforms are pretty modern as well, ACU's with a black patrol cap. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/New_York_state_guard_Military_Police.jpeg ...and the light belts. 
Though the context of their use is less idiotic here than it would be in other places, I admit. |
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Quoted: NY Guard actually does stuff, not anything the NG couldn't do, but they do disaster relief and such, along with assisting search & rescue. Uniforms are pretty modern as well, ACU's with a black patrol cap. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/New_York_state_guard_Military_Police.jpeg Quoted: Quoted: Why the fuck do these still exist? SDF Wiki I played around with Ohio's for a little bit, but fuck me, it's gayer than eight guys fucking nine guys. No money, no weapons, obsolete gear and uniform requirements, no mission. Good men, don't get me wrong, both prior fed military and non prior. But Goddamn. And as far as I can tell, they're all like this. I'll reup in the NG. Rant over. NY Guard actually does stuff, not anything the NG couldn't do, but they do disaster relief and such, along with assisting search & rescue. Uniforms are pretty modern as well, ACU's with a black patrol cap. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/New_York_state_guard_Military_Police.jpeg 1982 called. It wants its TA-50 back. |
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hey hey hey, somebody has to guard the NG armories when they get called up for riots and floods. I had one of the CA guys try to recruit me when I was at a booth at a county fair for a Ham Radio emergency group. "Oh, you must be interested in community service in emergencies, we have a real role here in the state." I let him go on for a while. Then I asked him if he knew a certain brother of a good friend. "Why yes, MSG xxx is in my unit." "I've known him since I was in 6th grade, I wouldn't in anyway be associated with a group that puts him in a position of authority. Besides, with a Federal commission, I can't join." Except they never do get to do that ever...2 deployments and multiple state emergencies and they couldn't be trusted to do shit....we had to leave useful soldiers behind to take care of our facilities.....
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got some super duper paratroopers in this bunch. https://cache.nebula.phx3.secureserver.net/obj/MDdFNjhGREY0RkY4Mjk2MzFFREE6ODNiZjcyMGZmNTc3MjMxOGQ1Zjg5MDM2MTYwZDIwM2M=?uid=b1f56b02-4481-4790-9860-3cbc6d3d1ef9 Looks like a photo from an old soldiers home or something. |
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hey hey hey, somebody has to guard the NG armories when they get called up for riots and floods. Not really. Theres always a few broke dick guys in any Guard unit who can't move with the main element. THEY can stay at the armory and guard it with unit weapons they've actually trained on. The State Guard guys might have an office in the armory, but they have no gear, no weapons, etc. All they could do is call 911 if someone was breaking in. |
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IIRC, the Virginia DF raised a stink because their air assets and riverine capabilities just got defunded.
By all appearances, their air assets were some dude who got gas money from the state for his Cessna. And their riverine force was some fat dudes on a semi-rigid. |
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NY Guard actually does stuff, not anything the NG couldn't do, but they do disaster relief and such, along with assisting search & rescue. Uniforms are pretty modern as well, ACU's with a black patrol cap. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/New_York_state_guard_Military_Police.jpeg Quoted:
NY Guard actually does stuff, not anything the NG couldn't do, but they do disaster relief and such, along with assisting search & rescue. Uniforms are pretty modern as well, ACU's with a black patrol cap. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/New_York_state_guard_Military_Police.jpeg Those guys look bad ass. Quoted:
just hope anyone I ever offended is happy and healthy on their own terms.
Are you refering to your peers in the state guard? I'm pretty sure you set them up for the worst IO/PR disaster ever recorded. |
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NY Guard actually does stuff, not anything the NG couldn't do, but they do disaster relief and such, along with assisting search & rescue. Uniforms are pretty modern as well, ACU's with a black patrol cap. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/New_York_state_guard_Military_Police.jpeg Quoted:
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Why the fuck do these still exist? SDF Wiki I played around with Ohio's for a little bit, but fuck me, it's gayer than eight guys fucking nine guys. No money, no weapons, obsolete gear and uniform requirements, no mission. Good men, don't get me wrong, both prior fed military and non prior. But Goddamn. And as far as I can tell, they're all like this. I'll reup in the NG. Rant over. NY Guard actually does stuff, not anything the NG couldn't do, but they do disaster relief and such, along with assisting search & rescue. Uniforms are pretty modern as well, ACU's with a black patrol cap. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/New_York_state_guard_Military_Police.jpeg Other than the web gear, those guys look like the TAC officers (DI's) at PA ARNG OCS. |
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IIRC, the Virginia DF raised a stink because their air assets and riverine capabilities just got defunded. By all appearances, their air assets were some dude who got gas money from the state for his Cessna. And their riverine force was some fat dudes on a semi-rigid. I had the misfortune of having three of them tacked on to my ARNG platoon the last time we got called up for hurricane duty. What an utter disaster. One of them spent the better part of five days trying to decipher a four page cheatsheet to a radio that hadn't seen daylight since the 1970's, and the other two walked a ditch into the ground going back and forth between the company TOC and the smoking block. I wouldn't trust them with anything more complicated than a pencil, and an unsharpened one at that. |
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NY Guard actually does stuff, not anything the NG couldn't do, but they do disaster relief and such, along with assisting search & rescue. Uniforms are pretty modern as well, ACU's with a black patrol cap. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/New_York_state_guard_Military_Police.jpeg Quoted:
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Why the fuck do these still exist? SDF Wiki I played around with Ohio's for a little bit, but fuck me, it's gayer than eight guys fucking nine guys. No money, no weapons, obsolete gear and uniform requirements, no mission. Good men, don't get me wrong, both prior fed military and non prior. But Goddamn. And as far as I can tell, they're all like this. I'll reup in the NG. Rant over. NY Guard actually does stuff, not anything the NG couldn't do, but they do disaster relief and such, along with assisting search & rescue. Uniforms are pretty modern as well, ACU's with a black patrol cap. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/New_York_state_guard_Military_Police.jpeg PT belts? fuckit, I am in. |
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I don't see what the kerfuffle is. If properly trained, they can be an asset in most situations, with the bonus of being unable to be called up by the president to do their bidding.
I can see where the rub would actually be in ensuring the proper training is given, but that isn't the fault of the premise, that is the problem in implementation. Don't like them, write your state legislatures and ask they be changed or disbanded. Simple as that. |
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I don't know why so many of these state defense forces/militias concentrate on being some sort of light infantry force. That capability is only going to be needed rarely(if ever) and it's also redundant.
To be viable they need to find their niche and not compete with the national guard or the state police. Otherwise they are always going to have the stigma of 2nd stringers or wanna-bes. Quoted:
IIRC, the Virginia DF raised a stink because their air assets and riverine capabilities just got defunded. By all appearances, their air assets were some dude who got gas money from the state for his Cessna. And their riverine force was some fat dudes on a semi-rigid. With such a low budget the VDF should just be a database of volunteers and whatever skill set they have, with some kind of loose plan for various emergencies. It should be a way for the state to rapidly organize a group from whoever might be able to help in a crisis. I don't see much of a reason to wear camouflage uniforms or even have a military structure...I would much rather have a few guys who are certified EMTs, armed security officers or something arrive wearing normal clothes to help out than a bunch of dressed up bubbas with carbines and possibly some delusions. |
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Those guys look bad ass. Are you refering to your peers in the state guard? I'm pretty sure you set them up for the worst IO/PR disaster ever recorded. Quoted:
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NY Guard actually does stuff, not anything the NG couldn't do, but they do disaster relief and such, along with assisting search & rescue. Uniforms are pretty modern as well, ACU's with a black patrol cap. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/New_York_state_guard_Military_Police.jpeg Those guys look bad ass. Quoted:
just hope anyone I ever offended is happy and healthy on their own terms.
Are you refering to your peers in the state guard? I'm pretty sure you set them up for the worst IO/PR disaster ever recorded. Nah, it was a tempest in a teapot. I never even heard about it outside of people here that I actually knew, and I didn't really get any grief from them. Did some people come to dislike me? Of course... I'm an asshole.
My life goals have never included "be popular". As big as ARFCOM is, the reality is nobody outside of here cares what happens here... |
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PT belts? fuckit, I am in. Quoted:
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NY Guard actually does stuff, not anything the NG couldn't do, but they do disaster relief and such, along with assisting search & rescue. Uniforms are pretty modern as well, ACU's with a black patrol cap. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/New_York_state_guard_Military_Police.jpeg PT belts? fuckit, I am in. Those guys were actually able to cough up some competitive shooters at the state matches in the 90s. They were denied eligibility for a while because they weren't shooting "issued' weapons, but by the early oughts there were back in the matches Quoted:
1982 called. It wants its TA-50 back. That style of quick release buckle wasn't issued yet in 1982 |
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With such a low budget the VDF should just be a database of volunteers and whatever skill set they have, with some kind of loose plan for various emergencies. It should be a way for the state to rapidly organize a group from whoever might be able to help in a crisis. I don't see much of a reason to wear camouflage uniforms or even have a military structure...I would much rather have a few guys who are certified EMTs, armed security officers or something arrive wearing normal clothes to help out than a bunch of dressed up bubbas with carbines and possibly some delusions. Sounds like you are describing volunteer fire departments. 
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If the federal government becomes more intrusive, states might find a state guard important because it would not come under federal control. States should have decent militia units completely outside of federal influence. I think you underestimate the importance of PX privileges |
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I think you underestimate the importance of PX privileges Quoted:
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If the federal government becomes more intrusive, states might find a state guard important because it would not come under federal control. States should have decent militia units completely outside of federal influence. I think you underestimate the importance of PX privileges Ammo is ridiculously cheap and there was tons of it during the scare. Since all that DHS ammo was actually so the government could stock the PX with ammo. |
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I don't know why so many of these state defense forces/militias concentrate on being some sort of light infantry force. That capability is only going to be needed rarely(if ever) and it's also redundant. To be viable they need to find their niche and not compete with the national guard or the state police. Otherwise they are always going to have the stigma of 2nd stringers or wanna-bes. With such a low budget the VDF should just be a database of volunteers and whatever skill set they have, with some kind of loose plan for various emergencies. It should be a way for the state to rapidly organize a group from whoever might be able to help in a crisis. I don't see much of a reason to wear camouflage uniforms or even have a military structure...I would much rather have a few guys who are certified EMTs, armed security officers or something arrive wearing normal clothes to help out than a bunch of dressed up bubbas with carbines and possibly some delusions. And all of that should be run at the County level, not State. |