[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Question related to Ruby Ridge (Page 1 of 8)
Posted: 8/28/2013 2:24:18 AM EDT
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I vaguely remember Ruby Ridge from when I was a teenager but never really delved into it. Lately though, the Troy debacle and reading the Wiki page on RR has me wanting to know more. To that end I'd like recommendations on a handful of kindle books that tell the story from both sides. I am NOT looking for emotionally charged LEO hating or race bating crap. I'm looking for factual accounts of the incident from both sides of the aisle. Do those even exist?
I'm far more likely to read the CSPAN transcripts than I am to sit there and watch a 4hr video so that's one of the things I'll be looking for. I'll also try and find the official government reports as they relate to the post incident investigation. What other non-sensationalized information is out there? |
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I do not recall ever seeing anything written on Ruby Ridge (or Waco for that matter) that did not have an agenda to one side or the other... I would suggest reading both/any/all sides of the story and forming your own opinion. Quoted:
I do not recall ever seeing anything written on Ruby Ridge (or Waco for that matter) that did not have an agenda to one side or the other... I would suggest reading both/any/all sides of the story and forming your own opinion. That's honestly what I expect but I'm trying to start the process without and preconceived notions. Quoted:
What's to sensationalize, LH shot Randy Weaver's wife in the head, for doing nothing more than holding a baby. Randy Weaver received 3.1 million dollars for the actions of our inept Government employees. The end. I knew I should have posted in the Team section. |
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That's honestly what I expect but I'm trying to start the process without and preconceived notions. I knew I should have posted in the Team section. Quoted:
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I do not recall ever seeing anything written on Ruby Ridge (or Waco for that matter) that did not have an agenda to one side or the other... I would suggest reading both/any/all sides of the story and forming your own opinion. That's honestly what I expect but I'm trying to start the process without and preconceived notions. Quoted:
What's to sensationalize, LH shot Randy Weaver's wife in the head, for doing nothing more than holding a baby. Randy Weaver received 3.1 million dollars for the actions of our inept Government employees. The end. I knew I should have posted in the Team section. Why? He's right. |
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It has a simple conclusion if you look at the whole situation from both sides. The federal agencies over reacted with way too much force and people died that shouldn't have. Quoted:
It has a simple conclusion if you look at the whole situation from both sides. The federal agencies over reacted with way too much force and people died that shouldn't have. Quoted:
Why? He's right. What I'm looking for is information that leads one to a conclusion, not having a conclusion handed to me. What specific research have y'all done that didn't include posts on a message board. You know, teach a man to fish and all... |
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What I'm looking for is information that leads one to a conclusion, not having a conclusion handed to me. What specific research have y'all done that didn't include posts on a message board. You know, teach a man to fish and all... Quoted:
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It has a simple conclusion if you look at the whole situation from both sides. The federal agencies over reacted with way too much force and people died that shouldn't have. Quoted:
Why? He's right. What I'm looking for is information that leads one to a conclusion, not having a conclusion handed to me. What specific research have y'all done that didn't include posts on a message board. You know, teach a man to fish and all... If you truly want unbiased information, you have to go to primary sources. Not even reported news can be trusted to be without bias. I'd say your best bet was to read actual transcripts. |
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You also need to understand how Randy's problems with the Feds started.
As I understand, a Federal undercover agent approached Randy and asked Randy to cut the barrel off a shotgun to shorter than the legal limit. Randy refused at fist but eventually acquiesced. Then the law enforcement officials got a warrant for Randy but were afraid to walk up to his door and serve him. So they staked out his home; shot his boy's dog, shot his wife, etc.. |
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There is plenty of info, I would suggest a search and read. My opinion is:
The fed bated Weaver into cutting a shotgun down below the legal limit at a setup sale. Weaver did not go to the court date, so the fed surrounded his house in hiding, shot his dog when his son was out hiking with the family pet; the kid shot back and all hell broke loose. They murdered his family and ruined his life. |
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What I'm looking for is information that leads one to a conclusion, not having a conclusion handed to me. What specific research have y'all done that didn't include posts on a message board. You know, teach a man to fish and all... Quoted:
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It has a simple conclusion if you look at the whole situation from both sides. The federal agencies over reacted with way too much force and people died that shouldn't have. Quoted:
Why? He's right. What I'm looking for is information that leads one to a conclusion, not having a conclusion handed to me. What specific research have y'all done that didn't include posts on a message board. You know, teach a man to fish and all... From whom do you believe that you will get an honest, objective account of the events at Ruby Ridge? The Weaver camp? Official government documents? The media? Ain't gonna happen. Your best bet is court transcripts from the various actions, but then you're still reading cases built by attorneys who wanted to paint a particular picture. You're going to have to sift through all of the above and figure it out for yourself. The undisputed facts are pretty plain and are already common knowledge for anyone who knows anything about the incident. And, btw, as SirSqueeboo said, mitchellh is right. |
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You also need to understand how Randy's problems with the Feds started. As I understand, a Federal undercover agent approached Randy and asked Randy to cut the barrel off a shotgun to shorter than the legal limit. Randy refused at fist but eventually acquiesced. Then the law enforcement officials got a warrant for Randy but were afraid to walk up to his door and serve him. So they staked out his home; shot his boy's dog, shot his wife, etc.. That is what pretty much I remember but there is one part left out. The ultimate goal was to leverage this firearms violation against Randy in order to have him become a CI inside a white supremacist group that was near him. Randy had a knowledge of them and had been to some meetings, but again as I recall, Randy was more of a separatist than a supremacist. At least that is what I can vaguely recall. I will probably stand corrected. |
| FWIW- I met Randy Weaver several years ago and had a chance to hear him speak. He did not come across as the hate-filled, inbred-88-hillbilly the Gov't and the media made him out to be. Whatever facts you find OP or whatever opinion you form ask yourself exactly what had Randy Weaver and his family done that warranted the actions of the Government. Then ask yourself how the .gov or the media would spin your beliefs, your collection of arms and ammunition and your lifestyle if they chose to focus their lens on you. |
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I have read the Bock and the Spence books on my Kindle.
Tempted to read the Whitcomb book... but after reading the other two, I am hesitant to give Whitcomb any of my money. I remember the events when they happened. A lot of really shifty reporting was done. Still makes my blood boil. ETA: I didn't read Spence on Kindle. Got it at the library. It's been a while. |
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What's to sensationalize, LH shot Randy Weaver's wife in the head, for doing nothing more than holding a baby. Randy Weaver received 3.1 million dollars for the actions of our inept Government employees. The end. Weaver received $100,000. His children received $1,000,000 ea. Back then tv reporters actually reported. I believe a reporter wrote a book about what he investigated. Other than that I think each side is going to have some bias side to the story. |
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Quoted: That is what pretty much I remember but there is one part left out. The ultimate goal was to leverage this firearms violation against Randy in order to have him become a CI inside a white supremacist group that was near him. Randy had a knowledge of them and had been to some meetings, but again as I recall, Randy was more of a separatist than a supremacist. At least that is what I can vaguely recall. I will probably stand corrected. Quoted: Quoted: You also need to understand how Randy's problems with the Feds started. As I understand, a Federal undercover agent approached Randy and asked Randy to cut the barrel off a shotgun to shorter than the legal limit. Randy refused at first but eventually acquiesced. Then the law enforcement officials got a warrant for Randy but were afraid to walk up to his door and serve him. So they staked out his home; shot his boy's dog, shot his wife, etc.. That is what pretty much I remember but there is one part left out. The ultimate goal was to leverage this firearms violation against Randy in order to have him become a CI inside a white supremacist group that was near him. Randy had a knowledge of them and had been to some meetings, but again as I recall, Randy was more of a separatist than a supremacist. At least that is what I can vaguely recall. I will probably stand corrected. |
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Pretty good read. Gerry defended him because it was the right thing to do and the govt was wrong and lied. He was critisized by his peers for defending Randy. http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Slavery-Rebirth-Tyranny-America/dp/0312094671/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1377688689&sr=1-2&keywords=from+freedom+to+slavery |
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The ultimate goal was to leverage this firearms violation against Randy in order to have him become a CI inside a white supremacist separatist group that was near him. Randy had a knowledge of them and had been to some meetings, but again as I recall, Randy was more of a separatist than a supremacist. At least that is what I can vaguely recall. I will probably stand corrected. Fixed. There IS a difference. And no, I'm not in either of these camps. |
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If I remember right.... Mr. Weaver was associated with, either a member(s?) or an associate of, an 88 org. that the Feds wanted an 'IN' into. And this is why he was picked. (for the shotgun debacle) Remember, I'm going by memory. IIRC, Randy knew people in the group but was not a member. |
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Now that Dave_A is gone, it might not be too bad.  Quoted:
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This will go smoothly . Now that Dave_A is gone, it might not be too bad. It's not so bad so far. While most people are just giving me their opinion, several have provided useful information. That, after all, was the point of the question. |
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If I remember right.... Mr. Weaver was associated with, either a member(s?) or an associate of, an 88 org. that the Feds wanted an 'IN' into. And this is why he was picked. (for the shotgun debacle) Remember, I'm going by memory. He was a separatist, not a supremacist. BTW - I'm white and intentionally live away from black communities, which are riddled with crime and corruption.... Am I a "separatist?" 
The Feds used NFA rules to "entrap" Weaver so that they could use him to spy on his friends. He told them to pound sand. The Feds changed a court appearance date on his NFA case and didn't inform him. A warrant was issued. They shot his dog, a young boy and his wife. The end. Fuck the ATF. |
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He was a separatist, not a supremacist. BTW - I'm white and intentionally live away from black communities, which are riddled with crime and corruption.... Am I a "separatist?"
If you are than I am. The Feds used NFA rules to "entrap" Weaver so that they could use him to spy on his friends. He told them to pound sand. The Feds changed a court appearance date on his NFA case and didn't inform him. A warrant was issued. They shot his dog, a young boy and his wife. The end. Quoted:
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If I remember right.... Mr. Weaver was associated with, either a member(s?) or an associate of, an 88 org. that the Feds wanted an 'IN' into. And this is why he was picked. (for the shotgun debacle) Remember, I'm going by memory. He was a separatist, not a supremacist. BTW - I'm white and intentionally live away from black communities, which are riddled with crime and corruption.... Am I a "separatist?"
If you are than I am. The Feds used NFA rules to "entrap" Weaver so that they could use him to spy on his friends. He told them to pound sand. The Feds changed a court appearance date on his NFA case and didn't inform him. A warrant was issued. They shot his dog, a young boy and his wife. The end. |
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Weaver received $100,000. His children received $1,000,000 ea. Back then tv reporters actually reported. I believe a reporter wrote a book about what he investigated. Other than that I think each side is going to have some bias side to the story. Quoted:
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What's to sensationalize, LH shot Randy Weaver's wife in the head, for doing nothing more than holding a baby. Randy Weaver received 3.1 million dollars for the actions of our inept Government employees. The end. Weaver received $100,000. His children received $1,000,000 ea. Back then tv reporters actually reported. I believe a reporter wrote a book about what he investigated. Other than that I think each side is going to have some bias side to the story.  You've got to be joking.
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If I remember right.... Mr. Weaver was associated with, either a member(s?) or an associate of, an 88 org. that the Feds wanted an 'IN' into. And this is why he was picked. (for the shotgun debacle) Remember, I'm going by memory. He was a separatist, not a supremacist. BTW - I'm white and intentionally live away from black communities, which are riddled with crime and corruption.... Am I a "separatist?"
If you are than I am. The Feds used NFA rules to "entrap" Weaver so that they could use him to spy on his friends. He told them to pound sand. The Feds changed a court appearance date on his NFA case and didn't inform him. A warrant was issued. They shot his dog, a young boy and his wife. The end. During that era, government officials fapped feverishly to the thought of a "race war" between ghetto goblins and 88s. "Oh teh noes!!!! Da skin hedz are coming!!" 
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What's to sensationalize, LH shot Randy Weaver's wife in the head, for doing nothing more than holding a baby. Randy Weaver received 3.1 million dollars for the actions of our inept Government employees. The end. No, he did not. Randy got $100,000 both of the daughters got $1M each. |
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You've got to be joking.Quoted:
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What's to sensationalize, LH shot Randy Weaver's wife in the head, for doing nothing more than holding a baby. Randy Weaver received 3.1 million dollars for the actions of our inept Government employees. The end. Weaver received $100,000. His children received $1,000,000 ea. Back then tv reporters actually reported. I believe a reporter wrote a book about what he investigated. Other than that I think each side is going to have some bias side to the story. You've got to be joking."Back then" it was network news plus CNN, which was later nicknamed the Clinton News Network..." |
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Let's see, the federal government paid out a multi-million wrongful death settlement to WHITE people. Have you ever owed any money to the government? Are you picking up what I'm putting down? ETA: Randy Weaver dealt with the situaion as best he could: see what happened to his green beret buddy Barry Seals once the government was done with him. Oops, I missed the edit button. |
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Quoted: I vaguely remember Ruby Ridge from when I was a teenager but never really delved into it. Lately though, the Troy debacle and reading the Wiki page on RR has me wanting to know more. To that end I'd like recommendations on a handful of kindle books that tell the story from both sides. I am NOT looking for emotionally charged LEO hating or race bating crap. I'm looking for factual accounts of the incident from both sides of the aisle. Do those even exist? I'm far more likely to read the CSPAN transcripts than I am to sit there and watch a 4hr video so that's one of the things I'll be looking for. I'll also try and find the official government reports as they relate to the post incident investigation. What other non-sensationalized information is out there? Since the FBI / DOJ OPR was never released and the HRT destroyed logs, etc., everything the DOJ and FBI produced for trial was created to convict Weaver - that was the Court's ultimate finding (the AUSA quit during his summation say he couldn't do it anymore). The closest thing to a primary document is the Senate committee report. Again, the witnesses brought their bias and the Senators got furious at what happened. Read the Senate report, Spence's book, and the trial decisions (Weaver and Hourichi's Federal appeal for sovereign immunity). Then read the others.
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"Back then" it was network news plus CNN, which was later nicknamed the Clinton News Network..." Quoted:
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What's to sensationalize, LH shot Randy Weaver's wife in the head, for doing nothing more than holding a baby. Randy Weaver received 3.1 million dollars for the actions of our inept Government employees. The end. Weaver received $100,000. His children received $1,000,000 ea. Back then tv reporters actually reported. I believe a reporter wrote a book about what he investigated. Other than that I think each side is going to have some bias side to the story. You've got to be joking."Back then" it was network news plus CNN, which was later nicknamed the Clinton News Network..." And what's with the "back then" shit? It wasn't the Battle of Hastings, for Christ's sake, it was 1992. I was 23 years old. 
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You've got to be joking.Quoted:
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What's to sensationalize, LH shot Randy Weaver's wife in the head, for doing nothing more than holding a baby. Randy Weaver received 3.1 million dollars for the actions of our inept Government employees. The end. Weaver received $100,000. His children received $1,000,000 ea. Back then tv reporters actually reported. I believe a reporter wrote a book about what he investigated. Other than that I think each side is going to have some bias side to the story. You've got to be joking.Exactly! Remember when Weaver was accused of firing on Geraldo Rivera's helicopter? Never happened. Reporters said it did, though. |
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You also need to understand how Randy's problems with the Feds started. As I understand, a Federal undercover agent approached Randy and asked Randy to cut the barrel off a shotgun to shorter than the legal limit. Randy refused at fist but eventually acquiesced. Then the law enforcement officials got a warrant for Randy but were afraid to walk up to his door and serve him. So they staked out his home; shot his boy's dog, shot his wife, etc.. What was R Weaver told that the shotgun was going to be used for? |
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He was a separatist, not a supremacist. BTW - I'm white and intentionally live away from black communities, which are riddled with crime and corruption.... Am I a "separatist?"
The Feds used NFA rules to "entrap" Weaver so that they could use him to spy on his friends. He told them to pound sand. The Feds changed a court appearance date on his NFA case and didn't inform him. A warrant was issued. They shot his dog, a young boy and his wife. The end. Fuck the ATF. Quoted:
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If I remember right.... Mr. Weaver was associated with, either a member(s?) or an associate of, an 88 org. that the Feds wanted an 'IN' into. And this is why he was picked. (for the shotgun debacle) Remember, I'm going by memory. He was a separatist, not a supremacist. BTW - I'm white and intentionally live away from black communities, which are riddled with crime and corruption.... Am I a "separatist?"
The Feds used NFA rules to "entrap" Weaver so that they could use him to spy on his friends. He told them to pound sand. The Feds changed a court appearance date on his NFA case and didn't inform him. A warrant was issued. They shot his dog, a young boy and his wife. The end. Fuck the ATF. lets not forget about the illegal change to the standard rules of engagement, that basically gave the SS scum snipers authority to kill anyone they wanted. I remember during the congressional hearings how Sen. Thompson flipped out over this hand written scratched out Faxed ROE the thugs used to justify murdering a mother holding her infant. |
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Why was Randy approached by the Feds? I am guessing he was not chosen at random out of the phone book of a small Northern Idaho town. Look at where he lived and who he ran with. What organization is headquartered in Idaho...Pretty much the worst so the worst Neo-Nazi groups. Weaver had attended their meetings. This group murdered the ATFs CI brutally... Weaver was able to get in the group freely and would have been a good CI, working off his NFA charge. There is huge backstory before RR. |
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lets not forget about the illegal change to the standard rules of engagement, that basically gave the SS scum snipers authority to kill anyone they wanted. I remember during the congressional hearings how Sen. Thompson flipped out over this hand written scratched out Faxed ROE the thugs used to justify murdering a mother holding her infant. Quoted:
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If I remember right.... Mr. Weaver was associated with, either a member(s?) or an associate of, an 88 org. that the Feds wanted an 'IN' into. And this is why he was picked. (for the shotgun debacle) Remember, I'm going by memory. He was a separatist, not a supremacist. BTW - I'm white and intentionally live away from black communities, which are riddled with crime and corruption.... Am I a "separatist?"
The Feds used NFA rules to "entrap" Weaver so that they could use him to spy on his friends. He told them to pound sand. The Feds changed a court appearance date on his NFA case and didn't inform him. A warrant was issued. They shot his dog, a young boy and his wife. The end. Fuck the ATF. lets not forget about the illegal change to the standard rules of engagement, that basically gave the SS scum snipers authority to kill anyone they wanted. I remember during the congressional hearings how Sen. Thompson flipped out over this hand written scratched out Faxed ROE the thugs used to justify murdering a mother holding her infant. She was hit by a bullet that passed through its intended target (Harris) and a door. Kinda hard to guarantee nobody is behind a door and another person unless you have X-ray vision. Perhaps she shouldn't have opened the door and been holding it open for a fleeing felon that had killed a LEO. That tends to draw gunfire. |
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Look at where he lived and who he ran with. What organization is headquartered in Idaho...Pretty much the worst so the worst Neo-Nazi groups. Weaver had attended their meetings. This group murdered the ATFs CI brutally... Weaver was able to get in the group freely and would have been a good CI, working off his NFA charge. There is huge backstory before RR. Quoted:
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Why was Randy approached by the Feds? I am guessing he was not chosen at random out of the phone book of a small Northern Idaho town. Look at where he lived and who he ran with. What organization is headquartered in Idaho...Pretty much the worst so the worst Neo-Nazi groups. Weaver had attended their meetings. This group murdered the ATFs CI brutally... Weaver was able to get in the group freely and would have been a good CI, working off his NFA charge. There is huge backstory before RR. Don't you have some children to bulldoze or something? |
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What I'm looking for is information that leads one to a conclusion, not having a conclusion handed to me. What specific research have y'all done that didn't include posts on a message board. You know, teach a man to fish and all... Quoted:
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It has a simple conclusion if you look at the whole situation from both sides. The federal agencies over reacted with way too much force and people died that shouldn't have. Quoted:
Why? He's right. What I'm looking for is information that leads one to a conclusion, not having a conclusion handed to me. What specific research have y'all done that didn't include posts on a message board. You know, teach a man to fish and all... To be fair, the courts and teams of lawyers already did that. Hence the 3.1 million dollars. |
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She was hit by a bullet that passed through its intended target (Harris) and a door. Kinda hard to guarantee nobody is behind a door and another person unless you have X-ray vision. Perhaps she shouldn't have opened the door and been holding it open for a fleeing felon that had killed a LEO. That tends to draw gunfire. Quoted:
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If I remember right.... Mr. Weaver was associated with, either a member(s?) or an associate of, an 88 org. that the Feds wanted an 'IN' into. And this is why he was picked. (for the shotgun debacle) Remember, I'm going by memory. He was a separatist, not a supremacist. BTW - I'm white and intentionally live away from black communities, which are riddled with crime and corruption.... Am I a "separatist?"
The Feds used NFA rules to "entrap" Weaver so that they could use him to spy on his friends. He told them to pound sand. The Feds changed a court appearance date on his NFA case and didn't inform him. A warrant was issued. They shot his dog, a young boy and his wife. The end. Fuck the ATF. lets not forget about the illegal change to the standard rules of engagement, that basically gave the SS scum snipers authority to kill anyone they wanted. I remember during the congressional hearings how Sen. Thompson flipped out over this hand written scratched out Faxed ROE the thugs used to justify murdering a mother holding her infant. She was hit by a bullet that passed through its intended target (Harris) and a door. Kinda hard to guarantee nobody is behind a door and another person unless you have X-ray vision. Perhaps she shouldn't have opened the door and been holding it open for a fleeing felon that had killed a LEO. That tends to draw gunfire. Showing up unannounced on private property in camoflage and opening fire on a man's dog and his son tends to draw gunfire, too. 
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Showing up unannounced on private property in camoflage and opening fire on a man's dog and his son tends to draw gunfire, too.
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If I remember right.... Mr. Weaver was associated with, either a member(s?) or an associate of, an 88 org. that the Feds wanted an 'IN' into. And this is why he was picked. (for the shotgun debacle) Remember, I'm going by memory. He was a separatist, not a supremacist. BTW - I'm white and intentionally live away from black communities, which are riddled with crime and corruption.... Am I a "separatist?"
The Feds used NFA rules to "entrap" Weaver so that they could use him to spy on his friends. He told them to pound sand. The Feds changed a court appearance date on his NFA case and didn't inform him. A warrant was issued. They shot his dog, a young boy and his wife. The end. Fuck the ATF. lets not forget about the illegal change to the standard rules of engagement, that basically gave the SS scum snipers authority to kill anyone they wanted. I remember during the congressional hearings how Sen. Thompson flipped out over this hand written scratched out Faxed ROE the thugs used to justify murdering a mother holding her infant. She was hit by a bullet that passed through its intended target (Harris) and a door. Kinda hard to guarantee nobody is behind a door and another person unless you have X-ray vision. Perhaps she shouldn't have opened the door and been holding it open for a fleeing felon that had killed a LEO. That tends to draw gunfire. Showing up unannounced on private property in camoflage and opening fire on a man's dog and his son tends to draw gunfire, too.
Surveillance of domestic terrorist groups gets ugly. |