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Posted: 10/23/2002 10:42:59 AM EDT
Today at lunch me and a co-worker were discussing the shooter in MD/VA. He said if everyone was tracked, it'd be easier to figure out who's doing it. I said I'd rather not be tracked, even if it would catch the shooter. He asked why, but I couldn't articulate my reasons. Can someone tell me exactly why it's bad to have a tracking system implanted into everyone? His main arguement was, "It shouldn't matter if you have nothing to hide." All that came to mind is the qoute by Thomas Jefferson (I think), "Those who give up freedom for security deserves neither freedom nor security." I never said this to him, but was thinking about it, I just don't know what this qoute and my point would mean. Thanks! [:)]
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 10:51:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2002 10:53:00 AM EDT by DriftPunch]
Oh my, where to start. This post would be too long to fully elaborate! That guy is such a moron. He's read too many sci-fi stories. I actually ran into a guy once who wanted to ban all forms of physical currency. Wanted to force people to do absolutely everything electronically (through government networks of course)! We call those people futurist technocrats. Our whole system of government/justice would collapse. Our system is based on a presumption of innocence. It is the duty of the state to prove you did something, rather than your duty to prove you did not. A tracking system, presumes constant guilt.
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 10:55:03 AM EDT
if we put everyone in jail we would have no crime.
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 11:20:15 AM EDT
Why would ANY free man agree to be tracked? Are you a free man if you are being tracked all the time? I think not. It makes you a subject instead of a citizen. It spits in the face of the principals that this country was founded on. I have nothing to hide, but WTF business is it of anyones where I go, who I see, what I purchase??????? Go ahead, get a chip, get "onstar"in your next vehicle, keep your cellphone on all the time, make all your purchases with a credit card, sign up for all those "customer cards" at every place you shop,,,ect,,talk about an Orwellian nightmare. Tell him to go see "Minority Report" and read 1984. It's closer than you think.
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 11:28:43 AM EDT
If available, I'd have them implanted in my kids. I'd even pay to have them removed when they turn 18, if they'd like. Two reasons: 1. If one of my kids is missing, I can find them. 2. Since I'm responsible for their health, welfare and the results of their behavior, I want to know if they are where they say they are going to be. "Trust, but verify".
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 11:36:25 AM EDT
Well, I have some expertise in this field, since one of the companies I work with(design engineering) manufactures implantable(and non-implantable)tracking systems for wildlife and humans. Implantable devices, that have any range at all, are about the size of a medium sized carrot and have to be re-batteryed every five years. Oh and the best part is it requires an operation that places the unit in the lower thorax area--a major operation. The stuff you see on TV is just Showtime. Even if you wanted to it would not be practical nor safe.
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 11:37:56 AM EDT
what about autonomy? What about privacy? you've got to be kidding me! The government, a body of people with no singular objective or agenda, a group of people looking out for their best interests and not mine should have such a degree of control or knowledge of my actions? You can't be serious. Do you think they'd tell me what they, as individuals, or even as my paid representatives are doing? of course not. I'll wage war on America before I would submit to such facist monitoring! This is how they assuage the fears of the subjects of despotic nations. Why should you fear your great leader and his SS squads if you have nothing to hide? I think everyone that feels that way should volunteer to have cameras and microphones installed in their homes and vehicles as well as a chip implanted in their head. Tell your friend to read the Novel 1984. If he still isn't concerned perhaps he should move his family to a friendly place like Singapore although Nazi occupied Germany would more closely resemble a haven in which everyone rats on his neighbor because its the good thing to do. I am apalled that people not only feel the way your friend does but that they are willing to express it.
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 11:38:52 AM EDT
I would hope that I'm a good enough parent that my kids will tell me the truth. I don't need no stinkin chip to spy on my kids. "Oh look honey, Allison is getting banged by Bobby when she said she was going to the movies"! I just don't think it's worth it, even in a kidnapping case.
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 11:50:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2002 11:57:59 AM EDT by legalese77]
Don't be such a pessimist Peregrine! You just need to use your imagination! First and foremost, technology is advancing more rapidly all the time so where today's technology is not easily utilized to track the populace, we strive ever closer each day to that point. Secondly, if the government put a nationwide system in place, much of the tracking hardware could be offloaded from the individual. For instance, a circuit could easily be designed, similar to the magnetic strip in your credit card or any other verification circuits like those in a car alarm key fob, garage door opener and on and on, etc. Then, the government could set up stations with detection hardware everywhere. The government could further mandate that store owners set up detection stations. Toll booths, street lights,automobiles and all sorts of other key points could be equipped with detection hardware that automatically reads the identification circuit and records time and date and ID along with whatever is 'necessary' for a safe society. Of course OBD-IV for cars could include mandatory GPS tracking and the identification circuit would be picked up by your car and so not only would your vehicle be tracked, but when you are in it and when you are not could be tracked as well. OBD-IV could also permit law enforcement to shut down your car on command, automatically report you for speeding, driving drunk, failing to use a turn signal and even smoking. What an age we live in! They have the internet on computers now? EDITED TO ADD: As a sidenote, I don't think it's fair to compare a parent tracking his children with the government tracking the citizens particularly when the government's existence is only to serve the citizens. While it's true that some people think (mistakenly, in my view) it is the government's role to feed, clothe, educate and otherwise provide for its citizens I find the analogy of parent-child and government-citizen unsettling to say the least. To suggest that I need Dubyah, or Ashcroft or Clinton or any other Fed directing my life in the way that a parent directs a child would be an insult. (please note that the edited to add portion was not directed at anyone in particular and was added only to clarify that my post adressed solely the issue of the government tracking citizens and that I feel the topic of parents tracking children is a separate issue)
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 11:50:53 AM EDT
The government will provide incentives when they are ready for a national ID implanted chip system, for instance to own a firearm you must have the chip, to purchase food or fuel for your vehicle, again the chip, the list is under review at this time by a government think tank. I cannot provide sources for this information at this time, as of yet it just a rumor.
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 12:01:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By legalese77: Don't be such a pessimist Peregrine! Of course OBD-IV for cars could include mandatory GPS tracking and the identification circuit would be picked up by your car and so not only would your vehicle be tracked, but when you are in it and when you are not could be tracked as well. OBD-IV could also permit law enforcement to shut down your car on command, automatically report you for speeding, driving drunk, failing to use a turn signal and even smoking. What an age we live in! They have the internet on computers now?
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It's also a double edged sword [BD] You do know that the folks who design and work with these technologies have much more to gain from selling the "back door" than the "front" ???? Think about it, follow the money. [%|]
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 12:02:47 PM EDT
great sig line bountyhunter...so true As to the incentives... Speaking for myself, it would take a hell of a lot of incentive.... say..... a home in South Beach and a $250,000/year government check increased yearly to reflect cost of living increases. I think at the point that ID chips were implanted I would happily give up my job, my guns and my home in order to live in a more free country. Freedom is what used to make America great.
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 12:07:47 PM EDT
Sorry, I only do this for a living so uh maybe I don't know. I'm sure that the papers presented at the IEEE symposiums I attend as well as several others symposiums on this subject don't reveal the "secret" "inside" knowledge. Get a clue, passive tags need to be somewhere around 4meters or closer in order for them to be read. If the tag is implanted the range is less. Active tags(battery powered) can last about five years max, and that requires a big battery. GPS requires an antenna that is outside the body and does not work well in buildings or inside vehicles, think about it. Units that are implanted, that must transmit radio information are limited to very low levels due to the danger of causing an cardiac arrest or nervous system malfuntion or chromosome damage due to energy transfer. don't worry it ain't coming any time soon--and if it does I can only hope my company is the one making the units.
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 12:09:57 PM EDT
Revelation 13:16-17 or so might be a good start at a counter argument. Note that the FDA just decided that the verichip implants may be used for 'financial' purposes. [URL]http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev013.html#16[/URL] Rev 13:16 - And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: Rev 13:17 - And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 12:13:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FatMan: If available, I'd have them implanted in my kids. I'd even pay to have them removed when they turn 18, if they'd like. Two reasons: 1. If one of my kids is missing, I can find them. 2. Since I'm responsible for their health, welfare and the results of their behavior, I want to know if they are where they say they are going to be. "Trust, but verify".
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AHHHH... But you CAN track your children. [url]http://www.wherifywireless.com/prod_watches.htm[/url] Nuckles. [smash]
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 12:22:45 PM EDT
did ya see the SNL skit this weekend where (heaven forbid) john mcCain was playing ashcroft. the question was asked that "when will you be satisified?" ashcroft's reply was, " when everyone has a barcode on their forehead and an implanted chip that responds to this (holding) remote." too funny, but not too far from real.....
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 12:35:21 PM EDT
hey guys, just do a search for "chip implants" and you'll get more info than you want to know about this.... here's one for ya... http://www.adsx.com/prodservpart/verichip.html also, did yall see on Mail Call that the military plans to use implanted chips in place of dog tags in the future?
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 12:45:22 PM EDT
The implanted tracking chips are the 21st century's version of chains and shackles. Whats it matter if you're chained to a wall or implanted with a tracking chip, the government always knows where to find you[;)]
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 12:54:40 PM EDT
ok Peregrine, now you're just being nasty. I never suggested that you didn't know what you're talking about. I merely suggested an alternative method. You yourself note that passive tags can be picked up from 4 meters or so. 10 feet then, would not be out of the question. My point was that passive tags can be used...obviously they would not provide the tracking data that a GPS can but would certainly be sufficient to construct a pretty thorough itinerary. If Equipment for picking up passive tags is placed at key locations, who needs GPS coordinates? My whole point was that no, you don't need to implant GPS or battery operated beacon devices in people to track them in a meaningful way. The government doesn't need your velocity, altitude and exact coordinates within one inch. I'm sure they would be happy with where you shop, what routes you drive, etc. As for the GPS and OBD-IV, GPS is already available in vehicles (obviously) and OBD-IV is on the horizon. I can't claim that I got any of this information form any ultra-secret white papers so I guess you got me there. On the other hand, I have seen similar stuff done with ordinary consumer electronics and I suspect technology has progressed far beyond consumer technology. I'm sure you're a brilliant engineer but you either don't read carefully or are paranoid about attacks on your intellect. In any case, even if I'm a moron as your sarcastic remarks would so subtley suggest, I have heard of Moore's law as I am sure you have. In light of Moores's law, to suggest that because something is not possible today it won't be possible 10 years from now (particularly in the world of electronics) is silly.
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 1:03:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2002 1:05:27 PM EDT by magnum_99]
Refer him to the card catalog at your local library. Look up George Orwell: "1984" Pull book from stacks. Read it.
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 1:07:01 PM EDT
AMHsix, I think your co-worker is a few ants short of a picnic.
Link Posted: 10/23/2002 1:31:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By m193: AMHsix, I think your co-worker is a few ants short of a picnic.
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He may just have been playing devils avocate/f-ing with me. We had some good arguments this weekend too.
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