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AR15.COM
6/23/2013 2:41:35 PM EDT
I picked up a nitro R/C truck at a garage sale a few weeks ago and have had it running a few times for a few minutes (get a lap or two around my yard and then stall it and it wouldn't restart).

I've fixed a few problems I had found such as a missing exhaust manifold gasket, a rotted fuel line causing an air leak, a torn manifold/muffler coupler and a nasty looking glow plug. I currently can not get it to run or start at all. It looks like the fuel is not feeding into the carb after priming.

I currently have the engine removed from the car and mounted in a vise so I can use a drill to start it (took off the pull-start mechanism).

Here's the pertinent info to my observations:

The engine is an SH .18
I set the Low Speed Needle flush.
I set the High Speed Needle 2 3/4 turns from closed.
I have the idle screw set to a 1mm gap in the body.

If I remove the line from the muffler and carb I can blow into the line from the muffler and get a solid stream of fuel from the tank, indicating fuel lines/tank are OK.
With the lines attached, if I put my finger over the exhaust and turn the engine fuel visibly moves up the line to the carb, BUT when I remove my finger it seems to lack enough suction to keep the fuel pulling to the carb.

The glow plug glows perfectly when attached to the igniter.

I've tried starting the engine at full throttle and with the throttle closed to no avail.




Any ideas?



ETA: I've only found one problem online similar to mine and he took his engine completely apart and soaked it in WD-40 after which it worked. I took my carb apart and inspected it, but have not yet done a WD-40 soak, so there's that....
6/23/2013 2:44:23 PM EDT
[#1]
If only there was an RC forum

I run on all epower, so the best I can do is a friendly bump
6/23/2013 2:51:17 PM EDT
[#2]
I can make them run usually, but I can't explain worth a shit

sorry
6/23/2013 2:56:10 PM EDT
[#3]
My only advice was to check the glow plug and tune it. Its been a while since I messed with nitros. Maybe try rcuniverse.com for some advice?
6/23/2013 3:09:53 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
My only advice was to check the glow plug and tune it. Its been a while since I messed with nitros. Maybe try rcuniverse.com for some advice?


I just cross posted this over there.

it's a brand new glow plug and I've tried screwing with the needles while starting it to no avail.
6/23/2013 3:14:19 PM EDT
[#5]
It's been a loooooong time since I messed with this stuff but a few thoughts ran through my head.  Posting some pics of your setup might help but here is what came to mind:

-If it's an aftermarket exhaust where you had to drill your own hole for the backpressure line, the location may not be ideal.  I recall this always being a topic with the old Paris Turbo ring pipes and where to place the return nipple.

-See what length for the return line others recommend for your setup.  The line may be too long.

-Fuel tank.  In the old Savage I had, the fuel tank was known to be a weak point.  One of the mods was to run a pressure return line from the fuel tank lid down in to the tank.  Basically the tank lid just had a hole for the return put did not provide much back pressure when the tank was low causing the engine to lean out.
6/23/2013 3:16:32 PM EDT
[#6]
I had a nitro boat, which is my only experience with these engines. But what I would do to get it to suck in enough fuel to start up is gently place my finger over the air intake while cranking. Kind of a tap tap tap kind of motion rather than just holding my finger in place. Blocking the intake with your finger temporarily while cranking may give you the suction you need to get it started. Then once it's running hopefully it'll stay that way. Just be careful because you could easily flood it this way.

Also make sure the fuel is fresh. If it's been sitting around it might not be good anymore since nitro is water soluble and will absorb any moisture in the air very quickly.
6/23/2013 3:16:43 PM EDT
[#7]
Reset the needles to factory settings and change the fuel lines.

Make sure you have the right plug in there.
6/23/2013 3:18:31 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
My only advice was to check the glow plug and tune it. Its been a while since I messed with nitros. Maybe try rcuniverse.com for some advice?


I just cross posted this over there.

it's a brand new glow plug and I've tried screwing with the needles while starting it to no avail.


New glow-plugs can go anytime - check it to make sure it's still GTG.

Replace if necessary.

Next will be to make sure fuel is getting to the engine - might be worth priming the carburettor and giving it a go at that.

Make sure fuel lines and any connectors are clean and free flowing.
6/23/2013 3:23:45 PM EDT
[#9]



Quoted:




Any ideas?



ETA: I've only found one problem online similar to mine and he took his engine completely apart and soaked it in WD-40 after which it worked. I took my carb apart and inspected it, but have not yet done a WD-40 soak, so there's that....


Convert it to electric.

Seriously. No spills, no stink, no waiting for cooling off, no noise... and it'll always run like a bat outta hell when you want it to.

Electric is faster than nitro and way less hassle.





Short of that, I'd say give it a soak. I don't think it'll hurt anything.

Sorry I can't be more help but I've really never tinkered much with nitros.





 
6/23/2013 3:28:09 PM EDT
[#10]
Hows the compression? If it was run out of adjustment it may have gotten too hot. Turn the flywheel with your fingers. The motor should turn easily until the piston gets to the top then it should be alot harder to turn. If it spins freely it probably needs a rebuild
6/23/2013 3:33:41 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Reset the needles to factory settings and change the fuel lines.

Make sure you have the right plug in there.


Did both. Stated in OP.
6/23/2013 3:34:24 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My only advice was to check the glow plug and tune it. Its been a while since I messed with nitros. Maybe try rcuniverse.com for some advice?


I just cross posted this over there.

it's a brand new glow plug and I've tried screwing with the needles while starting it to no avail.


New glow-plugs can go anytime - check it to make sure it's still GTG.

Replace if necessary.

Next will be to make sure fuel is getting to the engine - might be worth priming the carburettor and giving it a go at that.

Make sure fuel lines and any connectors are clean and free flowing.


Al of these already covered in my OP.
6/23/2013 3:37:11 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Hows the compression? If it was run out of adjustment it may have gotten too hot. Turn the flywheel with your fingers. The motor should turn easily until the piston gets to the top then it should be alot harder to turn. If it spins freely it probably needs a rebuild


Compression  seems decent. When I accidentally flood it, it gets REALLY hard to turn, so I think it's still got a tight fit. The compression feels similar to my .40 on my plane, so that's the only reference for "good" that I have.
6/23/2013 3:38:30 PM EDT
[#14]
Couple of things, Mitch:

1) Never mount an engine in a vise-clamping pressure is so great you can easily distort the case and fuck the bearing/deform the cylinder

2) If it is mounted in a vice, you don't say what is attached to it. The first problem is that without a load on the motor you will likely damage if you get it to start. If you tell me what size it is I can recommend a propeller size to act as a static load for bench work. The second problem is that it may not start at all without anything attached to it because it will need some flywheel weight in order to run.

The first order of business is to get it back in the car. If you can do that we can go thru a few steps to troubleshoot it.

Engines need three things to run: fuel, spark/ignition, and compression. Given that you say your glow plug is good, and the engine suddenly didn't want to run, that pretty much rules out compression. Fuel deliver problems are pretty common, and easy to check... Put the engine back in, open the carb all the way up and dump 2-4 drops of fuel in the venturi. Try and start it. If it runs hard for a few seconds, you have a fuel draw problem. This could be from a piece of grass/trash in the line, it could be from a pinhole in the fuel line. Connect a piece of fuel line to the carb and blow in it. If you can feel/hear the air escaping in the carb, then your problem is in the tank. Plug the tank vent hole and blow into the fuel ling going to the tank-the tank should pressurize unless it's one of those trapdoor tanks you car fags use. If the tank uses a clunk, make sure the lines aren't kinked.

Let me know how it pans out, I might be able to swing by the shop and take a look if you can't figure it out.
6/23/2013 3:41:45 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hows the compression? If it was run out of adjustment it may have gotten too hot. Turn the flywheel with your fingers. The motor should turn easily until the piston gets to the top then it should be alot harder to turn. If it spins freely it probably needs a rebuild


Compression  seems decent. When I accidentally flood it, it gets REALLY hard to turn, so I think it's still got a tight fit. The compression feels similar to my .40 on my plane, so that's the only reference for "good" that I have.


No, that's hydraulic lock when the engine floods, and it's a good way to bend rods or break cranks. if it happens again, pull the plug out and turn it over manually a few times to start clearing it, then put the starter to it to blow the fuel out.

Car engines don't run a lot of ABC pinch at top dead center, especially when warm, and you'll only ever feel it when the plug is out. Compression doesn't just go away, unless you sucked up a sandbox in your last crash. That's why they run air filters.
6/23/2013 3:45:27 PM EDT
[#16]
Time to go brushless.  

I ditched nitro engines because I had these issues every time I wanted to play with something.
6/23/2013 3:49:35 PM EDT
[#17]
give it a little choke with your finger on the carb and make sure your running the right fuel.
6/23/2013 4:10:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Excellent, TheOtherDave, this is the kind of info I was seeking. I redlined an answer to your suggestions in the quote box below:


Quoted:
Couple of things, Mitch:

1) Never mount an engine in a vise-clamping pressure is so great you can easily distort the case and fuck the bearing/deform the cylinder

Thought about that and it's just barely secured. Basically just wanted to keep it from rotating due to torque, but will discontinue to be on the safe side.

2) If it is mounted in a vice, you don't say what is attached to it. The first problem is that without a load on the motor you will likely damage if you get it to start. If you tell me what size it is I can recommend a propeller size to act as a static load for bench work. The second problem is that it may not start at all without anything attached to it because it will need some flywheel weight in order to run.

Had NOT thought about that. I was gonna throw a prop/spinner on it just so I could use my electric starter on it, but it has a clutch assembly already on it, I didn't want to mess with removing it since I am unfamiliar with them as of yet. Definitely hadn't considered that the mass would be required to act as a flywheel.

The first order of business is to get it back in the car. If you can do that we can go thru a few steps to troubleshoot it.

Engines need three things to run: fuel, spark/ignition, and compression. Given that you say your glow plug is good, and the engine suddenly didn't want to run, that pretty much rules out compression. Fuel deliver problems are pretty common, and easy to check... Put the engine back in, open the carb all the way up and dump 2-4 drops of fuel in the venturi. Try and start it. If it runs hard for a few seconds, you have a fuel draw problem. This could be from a piece of grass/trash in the line, it could be from a pinhole in the fuel line.
I will try this, but I have to rebuild the dang pull-start....again. The spring likes to uncoil itself if you don't pull it off just right. I will report results when I test it (might not be tonight).

Connect a piece of fuel line to the carb and blow in it. If you can feel/hear the air escaping in the carb,  then your problem is in the tank.
I tried this already. It passes through but seems very restrictive. I loosened the HSN while doing it to reduce the restriction and wound up loosening it completely before it felt "free", but that's probably just due to me lacking a frame of reference.
Plug the tank vent hole and blow into the fuel ling going to the tank-the tank should pressurize unless it's one of those trapdoor tanks you car fags use. If the tank uses a clunk, make sure the lines aren't kinked.
I did one better. I removed the line at the carb and plugged it. then I removed the line from the muffler pressure fitting and blew into it. It pressurized so well that it lifted the fuel tank filler door. Lines and tank are Good To Go.

Let me know how it pans out, I might be able to swing by the shop and take a look if you can't figure it out.
This is a potential option, too, if I can't get it. I travel the state a LOT for work, so It's pretty likely I could probably bring it to ya wherever you may be.


6/23/2013 4:12:51 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hows the compression? If it was run out of adjustment it may have gotten too hot. Turn the flywheel with your fingers. The motor should turn easily until the piston gets to the top then it should be alot harder to turn. If it spins freely it probably needs a rebuild


Compression  seems decent. When I accidentally flood it, it gets REALLY hard to turn, so I think it's still got a tight fit. The compression feels similar to my .40 on my plane, so that's the only reference for "good" that I have.


No, that's hydraulic lock when the engine floods, and it's a good way to bend rods or break cranks. if it happens again, pull the plug out and turn it over manually a few times to start clearing it, then put the starter to it to blow the fuel out.

Car engines don't run a lot of ABC pinch at top dead center, especially when warm, and you'll only ever feel it when the plug is out. Compression doesn't just go away, unless you sucked up a sandbox in your last crash. That's why they run air filters.


yup, but unless I'm mistaken you can't hydro lock it without decent sleeve compression. ...I think...

6/23/2013 4:21:24 PM EDT
[#20]
is it at least poping when you turn it? or is it completely dead just turning over?
if you pulled it out of the car, I would assume you have left the flywheel on?
it has 2 or 3 clutch shoes with a spring wrapped around it, those slide onto the flywheel, you don't need a airplane prop to get it started, the flywheel is more than enough to get it idling.
if you took off the flywheel for any reason put it back on, leave the clutchshoes and spring off for now.

make sure your carb it self is tight against the motor casing, I allways put mine on with some pressure when I tighten the bolt.

how old is your fule? did it come with the truck? RC fule dies very quickly, a lot of starting problems relate to old fule.
6/23/2013 4:31:48 PM EDT
[#21]
Hope you are running ground vehicle fuel in it and not your aircraft fuel.

Ground cars have a different oil and nitro mix, using aircraft fuel in a car will hork it.

6/23/2013 4:51:29 PM EDT
[#22]
UPDATE:

Dave, YOU ROCK! I just rebuilt the pull-start and put everything back together and into the car. I did the 2 drop fuel test (forgot to disconnect the fuel lines, though) and BOOM! It started right up with less than 5 pulls. I stalled it trying to get the idle low enough that I could set it down without it running away and it wouldn't restart again, but I'm sure that's just a tuning issue. If I can't get it tuned could I hit you up for a meet?
6/23/2013 4:55:27 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Hope you are running ground vehicle fuel in it and not your aircraft fuel.

Ground cars have a different oil and nitro mix, using aircraft fuel in a car will hork it.



Nope, it came with a jug of traxxas fuel. I had  read about not using avfuel in cars, so no probs there.
6/23/2013 4:59:41 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
is it at least poping when you turn it? or is it completely dead just turning over?
Before I took it out of the car it was hit or miss. Out of the car It never tried.
if you pulled it out of the car, I would assume you have left the flywheel on?
Yup.it has 2 or 3 clutch shoes with a spring wrapped around it, those slide onto the flywheel, you don't need a airplane prop to get it started, the flywheel is more than enough to get it idling.
if you took off the flywheel for any reason put it back on, leave the clutchshoes and spring off for now.
Didn't want to try to take it off and risk wrecking something.

make sure your carb it self is tight against the motor casing, I allways put mine on with some pressure when I tighten the bolt.
Yup. Just disassembled the carb and put it back on good and snug.
how old is your fule? did it come with the truck? RC fule dies very quickly, a lot of starting problems relate to old fule.
This is a GOOD possibility! He said he bought the truck last year and I assume he got the fuel then, so It may be over a year old. I might shell out the $40 for another jug before I try to tune it again, that way one more variable is eliminated.


6/23/2013 5:13:20 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
UPDATE:

Dave, YOU ROCK! I just rebuilt the pull-start and put everything back together and into the car. I did the 2 drop fuel test (forgot to disconnect the fuel lines, though) and BOOM! It started right up with less than 5 pulls. I stalled it trying to get the idle low enough that I could set it down without it running away and it wouldn't restart again, but I'm sure that's just a tuning issue. If I can't get it tuned could I hit you up for a meet?


Sure.. Any time you have starting issues, the first thing you do is check the plug/battery, then disconnect the fuel line and try to clear the motor with the plug lit. If that doesn't work, you pull the plug and clear the motor of fuel, then try and start it again with the fuel line off. Once you get the engine to fire off of what fuel was in the engine, try and start it again with a drop or two of fuel just to see how much prime it likes. Once you have the hang of it, put the needles to the factory settings and reconnect the fuel lines and start it with a drop of prime. That should get you a running engine you can work from baseline settings to make it run right. Expect that it will run rich though and don't let it sit like this because the HSN setting will allow the engine to flood under gravity feed.
6/23/2013 5:17:03 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hope you are running ground vehicle fuel in it and not your aircraft fuel.

Ground cars have a different oil and nitro mix, using aircraft fuel in a car will hork it.



Nope, it came with a jug of traxxas fuel. I had  read about not using avfuel in cars, so no probs there.


It won't kill your car to run airplane or heli fuel. Car motors run light loads and have different lubrication requirements than airplane motors do. They tend to run more synthetic oil than castor to get the total oil percentage down (more power) kind of like Helicopters do.

What you will see is a tuning difference because cars almost universally are set up for high nitro. This means they have lower compression ratios and needle settings and the throttle stop will be off when running it. You can get a car motor to run just fine on airplane fuel if you pull a few head gaskets and lean the mixtures out.
6/23/2013 5:22:25 PM EDT
[#27]
It needs a new piston, 12 bucks
6/23/2013 5:42:02 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
UPDATE:

Dave, YOU ROCK! I just rebuilt the pull-start and put everything back together and into the car. I did the 2 drop fuel test (forgot to disconnect the fuel lines, though) and BOOM! It started right up with less than 5 pulls. I stalled it trying to get the idle low enough that I could set it down without it running away and it wouldn't restart again, but I'm sure that's just a tuning issue. If I can't get it tuned could I hit you up for a meet?


Sure.. Any time you have starting issues, the first thing you do is check the plug/battery, then disconnect the fuel line and try to clear the motor with the plug lit. If that doesn't work, you pull the plug and clear the motor of fuel, then try and start it again with the fuel line off. Once you get the engine to fire off of what fuel was in the engine, try and start it again with a drop or two of fuel just to see how much prime it likes. Once you have the hang of it, put the needles to the factory settings and reconnect the fuel lines and start it with a drop of prime. That should get you a running engine you can work from baseline settings to make it run right. Expect that it will run rich though and don't let it sit like this because the HSN setting will allow the engine to flood under gravity feed.


Awesome. I've had nitro planes for decades and have never had to work this much on them. Hell, they start so easy you gotta be careful not to look at 'em wrong or they might start!

I'm eager to get this tuned up. I told my buddy about it and he just went and dropped $650 on a TRAXXAS so we can race! YIKES!