[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bernhard Goetz (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/13/2013 12:07:56 PM EDT
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Tell me about him, and your opinion on the whole thing. I've read the Wikipedia entry, I've heard about him in the past. "[It may simply indicate that] there are no more liberals on the crime and law-and-order issue in New York, because they've all been mugged". |
| I remember hearing that he had been repeatedly mugged and harassed on the subway before he finally took matters into his own hands. If I recall correctly, he killed one of his attackers while the attacker was running away (shot in the back) and that was what caused all the ruckus. My memory is very foggy about this as it was a long time ago. But I do remember siding with him at the time it happened. I guess the bad guys just fucked with the wrong guy on the wrong day. |
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He supposedly shot one of them while the bad guy was SITTING on the bench. It isn't clear whether the BG was standing up and collapsed on the bench due to spinal cord injury. THE MOST controversial part is "you don't look that bad, here's another": he supposedly shot one of the guys again, possibly hopped up on adrenaline. ALL of the BGs involved not only had quite a rap sheet, but they kept on with their lifestyle even after the shooting. Quoted: I remember hearing that he had been repeatedly mugged and harassed on the subway before he finally took matters into his own hands. If I recall correctly, he killed one of his attackers while the attacker was running away (shot in the back) and that was what caused all the ruckus. My memory is very foggy about this as it was a long time ago. But I do remember siding with him at the time it happened. I guess the bad guys just fucked with the wrong guy on the wrong day. |
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I was living in NYC when this happened and the street noise about him was VERY pro. People were getting sick and tired of getting mugged and now someone stood up and did something about it. I THINK the only thing he was really nailed for was the mandatory 1 year time for using a handgun in NYC. Heck even Billy Joel used his name in "We didn't start the fire" The news media back then was biased towards the victim though. I remembered the news story of the one kid who was paralyzed. They constantly showed him in bed... aww poor thing... NOT. The one thing thought that really stuck in head that pissed me off was the argument how he was a racist. THEY chose him. HE did not choose them. |
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Quoted:
He supposedly shot one of them while the bad guy was SITTING on the bench. It isn't clear whether the BG was standing up and collapsed on the bench due to spinal cord injury. THE MOST controversial part is "you don't look that bad, here's another": he supposedly shot one of the guys again, possibly hopped up on adrenaline. ALL of the BGs involved not only had quite a rap sheet, but they kept on with their lifestyle even after the shooting. Quoted:
I remember hearing that he had been repeatedly mugged and harassed on the subway before he finally took matters into his own hands. If I recall correctly, he killed one of his attackers while the attacker was running away (shot in the back) and that was what caused all the ruckus. My memory is very foggy about this as it was a long time ago. But I do remember siding with him at the time it happened. I guess the bad guys just fucked with the wrong guy on the wrong day. Huh. I guess my memory is foggier than I thought. The thing I took away most from the Bernie Geotz case when it happened was a deep sympathy for him. I was a kid when it happened, so I could relate to getting bullied. I do remember hearing that the perps had been repeat offenders. Oh, and for some reason I think I remembered that one of the BG's had a sharpened screw driver as a weapon. |
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I was pretty young at the time, but remember thinking that the guys he shot got what they deserved. The exact actions weren't what the laws allowed, but sometimes it's the end result of the situation that matters. Karma and common sense ruled the day in both Goetz' and each of the thugs that were shot. The system did it's work, and he went through the ringer. Nowadays, it would have been MUCH worse for him though.
Edit To Add: I was 12 at the time, looking at the Wiki article. |
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Maybe a little sketchy legally, but in reality it was a good shoot. Crime was rampant at the time, and the Goetz case was a big factor in the crackdown and the increase in public support for CCW rights.
A few years earlier Goetz had been robbed and beaten by a group of urban youths in a subway station. The one assailant the police did catch spent less time in the station than Goetz and basically got a slap on the wrist. Goetz applied for a CCW permit, but was denied even though he carried expensive equipment and had already been robbed. He started carrying anyway. Goetz gets on a train. Four urban youths up to no good surrounded him and started asking for money. Maybe they weren't doing anything wrong under the law, but it was pretty obvious that they were about to mug Goetz. He shoots them. There was a lot of popular support for "subway vigilante" who stood up to the criminals. The press, liberals, and NAACP types tried to vilify Goetz by making him out to be some kind of racist mass shooter who shot a group of innocent children. |
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Quoted: Maybe a little sketchy legally, but in reality it was a good shoot. Crime was rampant at the time, and the Goetz case was a big factor in the crackdown and the increase in public support for CCW rights. A few years earlier Goetz had been robbed and beaten by a group of urban youths in a subway station. The one assailant the police did catch spent less time in the station than Goetz and basically got a slap on the wrist. Goetz applied for a CCW permit, but was denied even though he carried expensive equipment and had already been robbed. He started carrying anyway. Goetz gets on a train. Four urban youths up to no good surrounded him and started asking for money armed with a screwdriver. Maybe they weren't doing anything wrong under the law, but it was pretty obvious that they were about to mug Goetz. He shoots them. There was a lot of popular support for "subway vigilante" who stood up to the criminals. The press, liberals, and NAACP types tried to vilify Goetz by making him out to be some kind of racist mass shooter who shot a group of innocent children. FIFY. cant forget the weapon.. Damn Craftsman!!  |
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I think it was a good shoot. He had the street experience to "know" they were about to attack him. The bad guys admitted they were going to attack him with screwdrivers. He defended himself with a tool that got the job done. He went to jail for having the tool that saved his life!
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Was Goetz correct to shoot with twenty plus years of hindsight?
Yes In March 1985, soon after being released from the hospital for the treatment of his gunshot wound, James Ramseur falsely reported to police that two men hired by Goetz had kidnapped and attempted to kill him,[70] but was not charged in this hoax. In May 1985, Ramseur held the gun while an associate raped, sodomized and robbed a pregnant eighteen-year-old woman on the rooftop of the Bronx building where he lived, and in 1986 was sentenced to 8⅓ to 25 years in prison. According to the New York State Department of Corrections[71] inmate search site, Ramseur served his sentence and was released in July 2010. Ramseur was found dead of a drug overdose, in an apparent suicide, in a Bronx motel room on December 22, 2011, the 27th anniversary of the incident on the No. 2 train.[72][73] A Times article from 1987 reports, "The trial judge said the young man's behavior before the jury had conveyed 'viciousness and selfishness more eloquently than words could.'" Barry Allen committed two robberies after the shooting, the first a 1986 chain snatching in the elevator of the building where he lived.[58] The second arrest, in May 1991, brought him a sentence of three and a half to seven years for probation violation and third degree robbery. He was released on parole in December 1995.[71][74][75] After a number of minor arrests for petty offenses, Canty was ordered to undergo an 18-month drug treatment program at a rehabilitation center, which he completed in 1989.[75][76] He was later charged with assault, robbery, and resisting arrest in an altercation with his common-law wife in August 1996 but was not convicted and did not serve time.[77] The fourth guy Goetz shot was crippled, but he was wanted on rape and assault charges at the time of the shooting. Goetz, no other brushes with the law, has a job... |
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Quoted:
Maybe a little sketchy legally, but in reality it was a good shoot. Crime was rampant at the time, and the Goetz case was a big factor in the crackdown and the increase in public support for CCW rights. A few years earlier Goetz had been robbed and beaten by a group of urban youths in a subway station. The one assailant the police did catch spent less time in the station than Goetz and basically got a slap on the wrist. Goetz applied for a CCW permit, but was denied even though he carried expensive equipment and had already been robbed. He started carrying anyway. Goetz gets on a train. Four urban youths up to no good surrounded him and started asking for money. Maybe they weren't doing anything wrong under the law, but it was pretty obvious that they were about to mug Goetz. He shoots them. There was a lot of popular support for "subway vigilante" who stood up to the criminals. The press, liberals, and NAACP types tried to vilify Goetz by making him out to be some kind of racist mass shooter who shot a group of innocent children. That "mass shooter" did all that work with a 5-shot snubbie. I wonder if there is a documented case of a more effective use of a snubbie? Just wondering. |
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Quoted: And now, in 2013, NY has the strictest gun laws in the Country? that same city? that's basically the reason I opened this thread. How can people just forget? They demonized him, just like with George Zimmerman. I do believe Goetz was carrying illegally though.
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Quoted:
Good shoot. I never understood why the poor dumb bastard turned himself in. Imagine how long the thugs riding the subway would have been worried about who might have a gun and fight back if Bernie had not turned himself in. He would have been like the Batman, he could have been anyone. |
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Just gotta post this...
Death Wish Was around back at the time. "Good shoot" was my reaction, see no reason to change my opinion. |
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Quoted:
I remember hearing that he had been repeatedly mugged and harassed on the subway before he finally took matters into his own hands. If I recall correctly, he killed one of his attackers while the attacker was running away (shot in the back) and that was what caused all the ruckus. My memory is very foggy about this as it was a long time ago. But I do remember siding with him at the time it happened. I guess the bad guys just fucked with the wrong guy on the wrong day. no none of them were killed but one was put in a wheelchair. He was the only one that wasn't really re arrested multiple times |
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Quoted: The courts decided that it was a good shoot. However New York put him away for 5 years for illegal possession of a firearm. Severe miscarriage of justice. Typical for a police state. Nah, he was sentenced to 1 year on the gun charge and served 8 months in jail. |
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Just from my vague memories of it because I don't have time to read up on it right now...
I believe it was a good shoot overall, but he blew it by pumping another round into the guy who was already down and saying "Here's another one for you" or words to that effect. I apologize if my memory is faulty on the above details. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I remember hearing that he had been repeatedly mugged and harassed on the subway before he finally took matters into his own hands. If I recall correctly, he killed one of his attackers while the attacker was running away (shot in the back) and that was what caused all the ruckus. My memory is very foggy about this as it was a long time ago. But I do remember siding with him at the time it happened. I guess the bad guys just fucked with the wrong guy on the wrong day. no none of them were killed but one was put in a wheelchair. He was the only one that wasn't really re arrested multiple times In 1985 James Ramseur was sentenced to a 8-25 year prison term for rape 1st, sodomy 1st and robbery 1st. He served the max 25 years in state prison and died of a drug overdose about a year after his release. He didn't get a chance to get re-arrested multiple times.  |
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Shatner did a good interview with him on Shatner's talk show. Goetz got to tell the story from his own perspective.
He came off as a little on the odd side, definitely one of those people who doesn't quite fit in with normal society. Regardless, even odd folks have the right to defend themselves. |
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Quoted:
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e314/bhart8911/9a495f80f9425fed9d4dff91d59ae65a_zps9df10297.jpg I am not a vigilante. I am just trying to get home to my little girl's birthday party and if everyone will just stay out of my way, nobody will get hurt. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
He supposedly shot one of them while the bad guy was SITTING on the bench. It isn't clear whether the BG was standing up and collapsed on the bench due to spinal cord injury. THE MOST controversial part is "you don't look that bad, here's another": he supposedly shot one of the guys again, possibly hopped up on adrenaline. ALL of the BGs involved not only had quite a rap sheet, but they kept on with their lifestyle even after the shooting. Quoted:
I remember hearing that he had been repeatedly mugged and harassed on the subway before he finally took matters into his own hands. If I recall correctly, he killed one of his attackers while the attacker was running away (shot in the back) and that was what caused all the ruckus. My memory is very foggy about this as it was a long time ago. But I do remember siding with him at the time it happened. I guess the bad guys just fucked with the wrong guy on the wrong day. Huh. I guess my memory is foggier than I thought. The thing I took away most from the Bernie Geotz case when it happened was a deep sympathy for him. I was a kid when it happened, so I could relate to getting bullied. I do remember hearing that the perps had been repeat offenders. Oh, and for some reason I think I remembered that one of the BG's had a sharpened screw driver as a weapon. the "boys" had the screwdrivers to break into vending machines, according to that asswipe Jimmy Breslin. |
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Lets see.
Bernie shots some scumbag muggers on a subway as he is just trying to go about his day and he is labeled as a racist vigilante hell bent on killing innocent black kids. Colin Ferguson murders 6 and wounds 19 on the LI railroad who were just going about their day and he is labeled as a black man driven to kill by white racism. Hey Colin thanks for giving us Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy-you scumbag, your one too Colin! 
Bernie should have kept quiet and found another means of transportation for the next decade and he would have never been caught. |
| AS other have said. Good shoot. His lawyer didn't give the jury anything to beet the gun charge. He was denied a NYC permit several times and was carrying enough cash regular to meet the requirement that was used as reason for permit. There was speculation that if they had introduced that at trail he may have got completely off. |
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Quoted:
Lets see. Bernie shots some scumbag muggers on a subway as he is just trying to go about his day and he is labeled as a racist vigilante hell bent on killing innocent black kids. Colin Ferguson murders 6 and wounds 19 on the LI railroad who were just going about their day and he is labeled as a black man driven to kill by white racism. Hey Colin thanks for giving us Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy-you scumbag, your one too Colin!
Bernie should have kept quiet and found another means of transportation for the next decade and he would have never been caught. Nis neighbors turned him in after a description went out on the TV |