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Posted: 9/17/2002 7:54:52 PM EDT
Two weeks ago I placed a classified ad in one of the local newspaper to fill a clerical position in my department so this week I reviewed about 80 resumes that I received. Since this is a entry level position and pay is not that much I didn’t expect to receive any “quality” applicants. While reviewing resumes this morning I ran across one that seemed interesting in that the applicant recently got out of the military service and was attending local college at nights. I always make a point of interviewing ex-military despite their qualifications since I feel they deserve an “extra” chance. I e-mailed the applicant and set an appointment for an interview this evening. He arrived on time and dress appropriate for the interview. He and I talked for few minutes about his past work experience (very little since he was only about 22 yrs old.) and education. By this time he seemed like the best candidate so I was going to offer him the position when he asked me a question that caught me off guard. He asked what the company’s policy was towards carrying weapon at work place. I told him the company’s official policy was “no unauthorized weapons on company property at any time”. Then, I told him that my personal policy was “don’t ask, don’t tell”. Then he asked me if that meant if he had a CCW he could carry at work. I told him that if I don’t see it I don’t care but if I see it I’ll ask him to remove it from sight only once… second time I’ll tell you to pack your stuff and don’t come back. If I see him carry while off the company property during breaks or lunch I’d tell him to be more discreet. If he carries it in his bag where nobody will see it, I don’t care. He seemed satisfied with my answer. Finally, I told him he got the job if he wants it and that the position pays $10/hr but if he wants to take a chance I’ll offer him a opportunity to shoot against me at the local range and if he can shoot better than me I’ll give him a $1 raise. If I shoot better than him I’ll cut his pay to $9/hr. He starts next Monday and our little competition to determine his pay is on Saturday morning [:D]
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 8:00:51 PM EDT
You hired him huh? On one hand, I'm glad you hired a pro-gun guy. On the other, your applicant was frankly rather lucky that someone sympathetic to gun ownership like you made the hiring decisions, and his asking about CCW policies at work showed extremely poor judgement, if he wanted the job. I think you made the right choice, but your guy was crazy to ask that question. But since he got hired, I guess it was the right question to ask.
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 8:03:21 PM EDT
Got to admit, it takes some balls to ask a potential employer how they feel about carrying a firearm at work. I'd think the odds are extremely unlikely that one could expect such an understanding explanation as the one he got from you. It was the right answer, don't get me wrong. I would think that most companies would thank the guy for coming in and before the door shut behind him, his resume is taking a 3 point shot in to the garbage can. Definately an unusual question...and again, a rather ballsy question at that. P.S.- If you do shoot better than him, I'd suggest leaving his pay at $10.00 an hour. It aint real easy getting by on anything less, and he seems like a good sport for taking you up on it. Just showing him who's the boss...at work and at the range should be reward enough. Just my opinion.
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 8:03:36 PM EDT
Oh that is too funny for words! Your answer was great!
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 8:05:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raven: I think you made the right choice, but your guy was crazy to ask that question. But since he got hired, I guess it was the right question to ask.
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He got REAL lucky with yobo, there's no doubt about that, especially considering the current job market, not exactly a job seekers paradise.
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 8:14:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 8:20:04 PM EDT
Maybe his personal code of ethics won't allow him to work for a no good filthy stinking puss filled scum sucking gun grabber. He probably figured better to ask first, than find out and have to quit.
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 8:22:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HiramRanger: Throw the match Saturday, just do it convincingly. He served, that's worth an extra $40 a week. He would have died for any of us, if its in the budget, do it.
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Just what I was going to say [:)] yobo, if he really does out shoot you, you know the appropriate excuses, right? [;)]
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 8:29:12 PM EDT
Try to lose gracefully Saturday! $40 a week isn't that bad a bump.
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 8:34:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 8:44:03 PM EDT
The kid (everybody under 30yrs old is a kid to me [;)] ) had guts to ask me that questions... I like that. He's going to drop by the office on Thursday to give me the course of fire (he gets to choose) we'll be shooting on Saturday and the caliber of ammo he'll need since I told the ammo is on me. No matter what, if he want to win on Saturday, he'll have to beat me. I don't "give" anything to anybody... they have to earn it. If he wins on Saturday he'll get $11/hr and if he looses he'll still get $10/hr. I gotta go talk to the CFO tomorrow to get apprvoal for $11/hr (just in case) since the position was budgeted for only $10 but I don't think it will be all that hard. Our CFO keeps a S&W 44mag Mountain Revolver in his briefcase and dressed up as GI Joe on Halloween 2 years ago with real Beretta pistol and a Bushmaster preban M4gery [:D] Yes, we have 2 gun nuts in our company.
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 8:47:05 PM EDT
I work for XEROX and they periodically ask us for our opinions on EVERYTHING it seems. I of course bring up CCW whenever the occasion occurs. For some reason my boss thinks i hunt.[:)] do ask, do tell lib
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 8:58:41 PM EDT
This thread made me smile. I commend you in the first place for getting this guy in for an interview before the others. Good choice, I hope he pans out to be a good employee. Now take it easy on him and hope he beats you!
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 9:00:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raven: ... your applicant was frankly rather lucky that someone sympathetic to gun ownership like you made the hiring decisions ...
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... He was applying for a $10/hr job for Crysakes!
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 9:08:57 PM EDT
A $10 job with 80 applicants.
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 9:10:19 PM EDT
Of course, if you hire him, your gonna turn him on to the best gun site on the web, right?[:)]
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 9:24:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raven: A $10 job with 80 applicants.
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Back in June we had over 400 applicants in one week for $12/hr accounting clerk position. Job market around here is pretty tough right now and I don't see it getting any better soon.
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 9:44:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2002 10:03:06 PM EDT by Fearandloathing37]
Do you run a string of Stop-N-Go's or a chain of Liquor stores in a ghetto or what? Are you in some sort of business where there is a high risk of robbery? I'm sitting here, trying to figure out why you would risk your own career, for a 22 year old new job applicant, who could turn around and beef you with upper management, for allowing him to carry a gun in a job setting, where it was really not required and prohibited by company policy. Does this kid have a concealed carry card for your state? I mean I'm sorry, I believe in RKBA just as much or more than the great majority of People, But this kid asking me, if he could carry a gun into a low risk work place, would have set off all kinds of alarm bells in my head. I don't know if I would have thought it gutsy, so much as it would have made me have serious worries about his judgment and creeped me out. I don't know, that I would really want a brand new employee, who's stability is an unproven and untested unknown, carrying a gun around, until such time as I knew that his carrying that gun, was not a threat to the other employee's entrusted to my supervision. His military service would be a plus, but I would not make the mistake of believing that it was proof of his Stability, Judgement or level of Maturity. Lets face it, I've seen some real Lulu's come strait out of Military Service, who I frankly would not have trusted to carry a slingshot, much less a concealed high capacity semi-auto handgun. Was he in a combat arm? Was he rotated out for unsat performance or discipline? did he produce his discharge papers during the course of the interview? All of these would be questions that would cross my mind, before making any kind of decision, regarding his carrying a firearm in the workplace. I mean if it was just me, working alone in some one man operation, I probably would not get to worked up about this, But how would you justify it to yourself later, if this kid freaked out over some job related problem and shot the nice 40 year old female secretary in the outer office or the guy who stands next to him on the assembly line? I dunno, I think at best, I would have told him, that if he happened to have a gun in the trunk of his car, That would be sort of like, don't ask don't tell. We don't go out and search employees cars or anything, but frankly I don't want to see you carrying a gun around in here, because frankly "I don't know 'ya" maybe talk to me about it in six or seven months, and I'll think about it, Maybe. At worst I would have done the complete interview with him, then told him, I'm sorry we can't use you. Maybe I would have told him, that I myself, was about as pro gun as you could get, but that I'm afraid, I can't hire somebody, who would ask me, if he could violate company policy in the job interview and then try to talk me into being a willing accomplice, in that violation of company policy. Tell him you understand and that you just want, to offer that as some constructive criticism, to help him in his next job interview.
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 9:48:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheHappyBlaster: Of course, if you hire him, your gonna turn him on to the best gun site on the web, right?[:)]
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Damn Right! Gonna bring him to the Dark Side and teach him to appreciate the black rifle [:D] But then, he's been in the service so maybe he can teach this old dog some new tricks.
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 10:30:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2002 10:42:39 PM EDT by yobo]
Fearandloathing37: 1. I work for a corporation that designs, manufactures, imports and distributes high-tech computer network connectivity products in 12 different countries. I manage the corporate purchasing and logistics department. 2. On the subject of weapons at work place, our corporate employee handbook reads: "Unauthorized possession, use or sale of weapons, firearms, or explosives on work premise is forbidden, in accordanance with state and local laws. Violations of this policy will result in disciplinary action" No more, no less. According to this sentence "unauthorized" weapons are forbidden but if you have a State issued CCW (which this kid did and I'm sorry if I had forgotten to state that) then you are "authorized" by the state. It does not state who can authorize. 3. Our corporate office is located on the edge of a large industrial park. Surrounding the industrial park is a low to middle class urban homes and apartments. Our company parking lot is located at the other end of the building (about 100-250 yards away). During the working hours there are thousands of people here at the park but come 6:05PM there are less than handful of cars. My interview with this kid was at 8:00PM so it was dark outside (he wanted to come after his last class). Oh, yeah we have security around here, a nice old man with a can of mace, riding around in a golf cart at night. The CFO and I (and few others) usually work until 8 or 9:00 PM and it is not unusual for us to work until midnight or even later. Like I said, nice looking place during the day but I wouldn't walk around here at night unarmed. 4. We have a HR dept which checks a lot of things about our applicants who will be coming for interviews. More than you think we know. 5. We don't have much cash here but have you seen how much a gigabit switch cost these days? I have 2 containers out at the loading dock that has to be unloaded tomorrow full of them. Those 2 containers are worth more than most people earn in 20 years. Would you like to take a guess how much a 3 meter fiber patch cables cost? I got 250,000 pieces in the corner of the warehouse. Or how about 457,500 meters of Cat 6 cables? Why did I take a chance with this kid? Because he wanted the job and was willing to work hard to prove himself here. Just because he wanted to know about carry a gun wasn't going to make a difference to me. Oh one more thing, his working hours will be 9:00 to 6:00 two days a week and 12:00 to 9:00 three day a week until December because of his class hours. Next semister who knows.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 1:17:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2002 2:04:56 AM EDT by Fearandloathing37]
"Unauthorized possession, use or sale of weapons, firearms, or explosives on work premise is forbidden, in accordance with state and local laws. Violations of this policy will result in disciplinary action" I believe you are attempting to play pretty fast and loose with the company policy here. I have yet to see a Large Tech Corp, that would agree with your read of who may provide AUTHORIZATION for the carry of loaded handguns on non public sales private property. Chances are about 90%, That your company management will see themselves, as the only entity entitled to give AUTHORIZATION for their private, non public sales facility. I somehow doubt that your company would be to terribly happy with your somewhat twisted attempt to interpret company policy to suit your own wants. I would have to take a quick look over at the Packin site, in order to do a quick check of Florida CCW law. Has your company posted no handgun signs anywhere in the building? The fact that your company has hired an UNARMED SECURITY FORCE , should provide you with a clue to as to your companies attitude towards firearms in general and the presence of firearms on the property. Has your company in it's entire history EVER AUTHORIZED ANYONE TO CARRY A FIREARM IN IT's PRIVATE WORKPLACE? AND IF SO, AT WHAT LEVEL OF COMPANY MANAGEMENT WAS THAT DECISION MADE. Do you have the authority to make this call on company policy? or is that call made at the level of the management, that wrote the policy manual? Your biggest crime in this, in the eyes of your company, may well be in not asking for a clarification of the company policy. Your company may see this failure on your part, as a lapse in judgement worthy of your termination. We have a few lawyers running around here at AR15.com, So you might run this by them, but I believe, That if you were terminated for cause, due to this violation of company policy, I have grave doubts if you would have any legal recourse. In fact, if anything ever went badly wrong and this guy you hired, ended up shooting someone on company property, I could see using you personal authorization for this person to carry a handgun, as leading to your being named in a massive civil law suit. Finally, I would warn you, That brand shiny new 22 year old employee's have incredibly big mouths, all it will take, for the news to be spread though out your entire workforce, that this guy is carrying a gun around at work, Is for him to try to impress some young female employee by the water cooler or in the copy room, by showing her his piece, and when she says,"My god you can't carry a gun here", your new found shooting buddy will tell her,"Oh it's all right, YOBO Knows about it, in fact keep it to your self, but he told me it was Ok." Pretty soon everybody will know. One way or the other What are you going to do, when this guy bends over to pick up a package or something and some dock worker or maint guy gets a glimpse of you new part time employee's gun, and decides that "Hey that's pretty cool, all I have to do is get a concealed carry permit, go ask management, and I can carry a gun at work to." How well do you think, the idea of several of your more full time employee's carrying more and more guns, will fly with your upper management? What do you do, when your Security ninja force gets pissed, because the maint guys get to carry a gun, while all they get to carry is Mace or Pepper Spray and starts firing off nasty gram reports to upper management? Are you reaching for the Rolaids yet?
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 1:29:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fearandloathing37: in accordance with state and local laws.
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I think this should explain it well enough
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 2:36:50 AM EDT
You have the right to CCW all right The company has the right to decide what is bad judgement and to not keep you on the payroll. Private business has the right to decide who may carry handguns on their private property. I think one of the deciding factors would be, Does your company control access to the facility. Is there a gate and a fence? Do you use a security card to gain access to the buildings or other controlled areas? Is your Parking lot Open to public parking or only parking for the employee's The point I am making here, is that a private company building does not have the same public access, as say a department store or a shopping mall, where the public moves freely. A company with a private non public building has every right, to prohibit firearms in that building if it so chooses. Our whole capitalist society is based on the idea of ownership of private property. and even the mighty second amendment must bow to the concept of private ownership and the right to regulate who may or may not work or come onto that property.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 5:46:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By yobo: The kid (everybody under 30yrs old is a kid to me [;)] ) had guts to ask me that questions... I like that. He's going to drop by the office on Thursday to give me the course of fire (he gets to choose) we'll be shooting on Saturday and the caliber of ammo he'll need since I told the ammo is on me. No matter what, if he want to win on Saturday, he'll have to beat me. I don't "give" anything to anybody... they have to earn it. If he wins on Saturday he'll get $11/hr and if he looses he'll still get $10/hr. I gotta go talk to the CFO tomorrow to get apprvoal for $11/hr (just in case) since the position was budgeted for only $10 but I don't think it will be all that hard. Our CFO keeps a S&W 44mag Mountain Revolver in his briefcase and dressed up as GI Joe on Halloween 2 years ago with real Beretta pistol and a Bushmaster preban M4gery [:D] Yes, we have 2 gun nuts in our company.
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any more openings?? [:D]
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 6:10:50 AM EDT
Fearandloathing, I think you would be the type of person to bring skunk stew to a picnic. yobo's job is yobo's to risk, lose or whatever. It's really none of your damned business.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 6:16:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 7:25:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fearandloathing37: I don't know, that I would really want a brand new employee, who's stability is an unproven and untested unknown, carrying a gun around, until such time as I knew that his carrying that gun, was not a threat to the other employee's entrusted to my supervision.
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This sounds like something Rosie would say. [V] Scott
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 8:17:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Fearandloathing, I think you would be the type of person to bring skunk stew to a picnic. yobo's job is yobo's to risk, lose or whatever. It's really none of your damned business.
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LOL and the "skunk stew" part pretty will sums er up...
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 8:28:44 AM EDT
Yobo, you're a good man. I hope the new guy turns out to be a good employee. Kick his ass on Saturday.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 8:55:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheHappyBlaster: Of course, if you hire him, your gonna turn him on to the best gun site on the web, right?[:)]
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Don't tell him about the site until you are sure about his production rate on the job. A couple of weeks after he has been on the job. The show him the site and watch his production drop like a rock. He will then start carrying a long case or bag similar to a rifle case,discreetly of coarse. So as not to break the rules. You are a good boss
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 9:28:52 AM EDT
Dang, I wish I could compete with my boss for a $1 an hour raise! He's from TX and proly couldn't shoot the broad side of a barn.[;D]
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 9:38:36 AM EDT
Since you know that he will ccw at work....I will go ahead give him the $2 dollars raise....Just to make sure that he knows that you are on his side just in case that he one day may go postal. [:)]
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 9:38:59 AM EDT
damn, gene...can your life get any more exciting?!?! heheh...sounds like cleveland.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 10:45:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2002 10:47:15 AM EDT by texastactical]
Originally Posted By 2whiskeyP: Dang, I wish I could compete with my boss for a $1 an hour raise! He's from TX and proly couldn't shoot the broad side of a barn.[;D]
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Excuse me??????[uzi]
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 12:48:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Scottman:
Originally Posted By Fearandloathing37: I don't know, that I would really want a brand new employee, who's stability is an unproven and untested unknown, carrying a gun around, until such time as I knew that his carrying that gun, was not a threat to the other employee's entrusted to my supervision.
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This sounds like something Rosie would say. [V] Scott
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Well put! The anti's use this same argument for opposition to law-abiding citizens having CCW. If the guy has no criminal record, then he has every right to protect himself, even at the workplace!
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 1:48:02 PM EDT
one of the reasons i work for myself is that i get to make the rules about carrying concealed at my place of business. my previous employer made a beef about my carrying on the job (ghetto neighborhood in savannah ga during the rodney king brouhaha). i decided then that my life was more important than any possible liability on their part to me and started planning to leave. i don't miss them and i bet they do miss me. i know there are differing opinions about carry on private property, but i don't remember reading about any exceptions to the rkba in the 2nd amendment that concern private property.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 2:15:32 PM EDT
Who knows he is 22. Maybe he can't afford but to live in a roguh part of town. Or he wants to make suer he don't work for a bunch of libs I would think you would be able to tell wether he seemed like a safe guy or not. I think you'd have a gut-insctinct about it. I'd have waited to ask myself. It's better to ask forgiveness than permission[:)]
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 4:16:26 PM EDT
I think fearandloathing is a secretly disguised anti-gunner! The arguements of a person showing there piece at the water cooler is insane,and also saying that this persons mental stability has not been proven yet is crazy! If the guy was not of good character he would not have a concealed weapons permit to begin with! Also just about all people who have a concealed weapons permit really dont want to do something stupid and end up loseing there permit, most people take haveing a concealed weapons permit very seriously. I know, I have two concealed weapons permits, One for the state of oregon,and one for the state of Washington. With these two permits I can carry my pistol concealed in these states: Alaska,Idaho,Indiana,Kentucky,Michigan,Montan­a,Oregon,Washington,Utaha,and Virginia! So point being that most people would rather try to stay out of trouble as to not lose there permit. Althoug If it were me on a job interview, I am not so sure as to that I would say anything about my concealed weapons permit at all. If I got the job I would read what the company policies were as to firearms, and then make the decision myself as to if I wanted to carry concealed at work! That way it does not put any liability on the manager, the decision was all mine, and also I am of one to not really broadcast to people around me that I carry concealed in the first place. The only people around me that know are my kids,my wife,and two of my friends, one of which I go shooting with on a regular basis. That is it! I suppose my boss knows, but I am the boss, since I am a homemaker!
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