[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Six Sigma?!? (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 9/25/2012 6:14:43 PM EDT
| Working towards yellow belt right now, why does this feel like training towards "nano-management"? |
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Quoted: Working towards yellow belt right now, why does this feel like training towards "nano-management"? Because it is. Soon, the volume of completed front-line employee paperwork will surpass the volume of business that same very employee will make. Expect your current 'doers' to spend half their time, and even off the clock, doing B.S. graphs and charts to a new level of management. |
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Working towards yellow belt right now, why does this feel like training towards "nano-management"? Because it is. Soon, the volume of completed front-line employee paperwork will surpass the volume of business that same very employee will make. Expect your current 'doers' to spend half their time, and even off the clock, doing B.S. graphs and charts to a new level of management. I'm going to start pissing people off tomorrow with the lean training.. It's going to be cost cutting and maximized productivity for everyone.. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Working towards yellow belt right now, why does this feel like training towards "nano-management"? Because it is. Soon, the volume of completed front-line employee paperwork will surpass the volume of business that same very employee will make. Expect your current 'doers' to spend half their time, and even off the clock, doing B.S. graphs and charts to a new level of management. I'm going to start pissing people off tomorrow with the lean training.. It's going to be cost cutting and maximized productivity for everyone..  |
| If you're turning out millions upon millions of widgets, of you're making pacemakers, then yes, anal retentive quality control is necessary. It doesn't necessarily translate to low volume or low tolerance work. Some of the principles are relevant no matter what... pay attention, develop and use metrics, make fancy flowcharts and graphs as long as you can explain them to Joe Schmoe on the line and always strive for improvement. The general principles can be implemented on a smaller scale but at some point you just need to take what works for you and avoid the urge to unnecessarily go full retard just to show that you can. |
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I've been employed with three global companies that "embraced six sigma".
It was and is a total joke. The only ones that think this is a viable advantage or benefit to the company is those who are paid to wreak this useless havoc on the rest of the company employees. It IS a useless expense of company funds! And that is a FACT! |
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Don't worry about it much because no one is going to pay attention to you. Visitors to your plant might notice the charts hanging in the hall on the way to the conference room. They have some, too. Sweet 
I actually believe modern process variation methods are useful, say in situations where someone makes lots of parts that have to be interchangeable. But it's completely useless in situations where we build one or two articles, and by the way, can't scrap the trial pieces needed to adjust the process. There's still a place for craftsmanship. That doesn't mean hand fitted, but it does exclude poorly fitted, finished, and just plain ugly stuff. I'm also ignoring the last email about gettin' our work areas 5S'd. |
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I actually believe modern process variation methods are useful, say in situations where someone makes lots of parts that have to be interchangeable. But it's completely useless in situations where we build one or two articles, and by the way, can't scrap the trial pieces needed to adjust the process. There's still a place for craftsmanship. That doesn't mean hand fitted, but it does exclude poorly fitted, finished, and just plain ugly stuff. I'm also ignoring the last email about gettin' our work areas 5S'd. This. The reason most people think six sigma is a useless crock of shit is because like any other endeavor, the people trying to implement it are useless crocks of shit. |
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I'm sure at least one will apply
http://search.dilbert.com/comic/Six%20Sigma |
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I'm also ignoring the last email about gettin' our work areas 5S'd. You know that means "Some Stupid Supervisor Said So." Right? And it typically involves throwing out everything you most likely will need next week......  McAlester Army Ammunition Plant was going through a 5S or 6S knee jerk when I was down there in August. The shop where I was working was instructed to destroy anything that didn't have a drawing and a part number. They have dozens of tools and aids that were made on the fly to solve an immediate problem, and they were scrambling to try to get tags on equipment out of base engineering. They were still trying to figure out what to do with the rest, engineering didn't seem amenable to producing drawings from the tools already in use. |
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The company I work for has embraced it totally. It has totaly destroyed employee moral and turned everyone into number chancing drones. Yep! And breeds a new internal "cube" side plan on how to build road blocks to get time to figure out how to blame others for metric failures even though they aren't your fault but you get judged on them.... 
It's a fucked up deal all the way around! |
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I'm a believer in lean when it comes to manufacturing and operations. I worked at one place where the lean experts, from a manufacturing background, thought they needed to apply their methodology to our software dev process. They were smart guys but refused to listen when we tried to explain that agile software development was the equivalent and pretty well established.
Turned into a damn mess since the operations VP was a lean guy and our VP had never managed software dev before. |
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I actually believe modern process variation methods are useful, say in situations where someone makes lots of parts that have to be interchangeable. But it's completely useless in situations where we build one or two articles, and by the way, can't scrap the trial pieces needed to adjust the process. There's still a place for craftsmanship. That doesn't mean hand fitted, but it does exclude poorly fitted, finished, and just plain ugly stuff. I'm also ignoring the last email about gettin' our work areas 5S'd. This. The reason most people think six sigma is a useless crock of shit is because like any other endeavor, the people trying to implement it are useless crocks of shit. Damn right. A bunch of processes and paperwork isn't going to fix people that are simply fucking lousy at what they do. |
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Total Quality Management, Kaisen, or whatever fancy word folks are using...
Is a good business philosophy. I get the Lean Six Sigma idea... And the Japanese companies that adopted fantastic *lean* manufacturing processes did it with an ideal and an ideaology that started *within* the company and every employee bought into it... They were going to war, and they wanted to win it. American manufacturing? Unions? I get the idea of lean manufacturing. I have worked in manufacturing. I did an internship at a Fram filter plant in Ogden Utah while I was working on my MBA... And the company officials would sit dumbfounded that Utah outperformed the Eastern-Seaboard facility that manufactured the same thing... They thought the solution wout be more Lean Six Sigma, and more TQM... Nope. Hire people who *want* the company to succeed, and who *want* to be successful themselves... There is a company that can be successful... I get the idea behind Six Sigma... I honestly do. It is a good idea... But if the company has to bring in *outside* ideas into the company, you already have a problem. Japanese companies took ideas, refined them, and applied them in manufacturing... Cut out waste, cut out redundancy, cut out bureacracy... And they kicked the ever-living-crap out of everyone in manufacturing... We had a Japanese car and an American car in the mid-80's growing up. The Japanses car doors shut tight. The American car doors shut with a clank and a scratch, and when you looked closely all four doors had different tolerances. I knew as a kid that the *process* was better in Japan than here in the US... Wal-Mart, a highly-successful American company was built by a man with a lot of ambition, who (whether he knew it or not) used a lot of "lean" ideas in building his company... Waste was discouraged. Inside-the-company ideas were used. Technology was used. Store managers were given tremendous leeway on working to make the company more money... All the while K-Mart was using Union labor, avoiding technology, and not allowing store managers to make even small decisions... Needless to say... I get the idea behind Six Sigma... the ideas are good... But if the ideas and motivation are not already *in* the company and *in* the culture... Good luck... |
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I'm also ignoring the last email about gettin' our work areas 5S'd. You know that means "Some Stupid Supervisor Said So." Right? And it typically involves throwing out everything you most likely will need next week...... McAlester Army Ammunition Plant was going through a 5S or 6S knee jerk when I was down there in August. The shop where I was working was instructed to destroy anything that didn't have a drawing and a part number. They have dozens of tools and aids that were made on the fly to solve an immediate problem, and they were scrambling to try to get tags on equipment out of base engineering. They were still trying to figure out what to do with the rest, engineering didn't seem amenable to producing drawings from the tools already in use. It is what camera phones were made for. Take a picture, slap a cover sheet on it, call it an assembly aid. Done. |
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Total Quality Management, Kaisen, or whatever fancy word folks are using... Is a good business philosophy. I get the Lean Six Sigma idea... And the Japanese companies that adopted fantastic *lean* manufacturing processes did it with an ideal and an ideaology that started *within* the company and every employee bought into it... They were going to war, and they wanted to win it. American manufacturing? Unions? I get the idea of lean manufacturing. I have worked in manufacturing. I did an internship at a Fram filter plant in Ogden Utah while I was working on my MBA... And the company officials would sit dumbfounded that Utah outperformed the Eastern-Seaboard facility that manufactured the same thing... They thought the solution wout be more Lean Six Sigma, and more TQM... Nope. Hire people who *want* the company to succeed, and who *want* to be successful themselves... There is a company that can be successful... I get the idea behind Six Sigma... I honestly do. It is a good idea... But if the company has to bring in *outside* ideas into the company, you already have a problem. Japanese companies took ideas, refined them, and applied them in manufacturing... Cut out waste, cut out redundancy, cut out bureacracy... And they kicked the ever-living-crap out of everyone in manufacturing... We had a Japanese car and an American car in the mid-80's growing up. The Japanses car doors shut tight. The American car doors shut with a clank and a scratch, and when you looked closely all four doors had different tolerances. I knew as a kid that the *process* was better in Japan than here in the US... Wal-Mart, a highly-successful American company was built by a man with a lot of ambition, who (whether he knew it or not) used a lot of "lean" ideas in building his company... Waste was discouraged. Inside-the-company ideas were used. Technology was used. Store managers were given tremendous leeway on working to make the company more money... All the while K-Mart was using Union labor, avoiding technology, and not allowing store managers to make even small decisions... Needless to say... I get the idea behind Six Sigma... the ideas are good... But if the ideas and motivation are not already *in* the company and *in* the culture... Good luck... I think I get what you're saying. I have a fair amount of experience with implementing agile software development at multiple companies I either worked for or consulted with. The number one problem with adopting agile is lack of buy in at all levels of the business. My experience with lean is more limited but I have participated in a Kaizen event where we had a stop watch and stood behind people doing their jobs so we could capture the steps. We really did identify wasted steps and come up with a more efficient standard set of steps to streamline what needed to be done. Unfortunately, just a few team leads and low level managers didn't like the whole thing and fought against it to the point where the refined procedures became complicated messes. To make lean, or agile, work, it takes commitment from every level in the company. |
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I'm also ignoring the last email about gettin' our work areas 5S'd. You know that means "Some Stupid Supervisor Said So." Right? And it typically involves throwing out everything you most likely will need next week...... McAlester Army Ammunition Plant was going through a 5S or 6S knee jerk when I was down there in August. The shop where I was working was instructed to destroy anything that didn't have a drawing and a part number. They have dozens of tools and aids that were made on the fly to solve an immediate problem, and they were scrambling to try to get tags on equipment out of base engineering. They were still trying to figure out what to do with the rest, engineering didn't seem amenable to producing drawings from the tools already in use. It is what camera phones were made for. Take a picture, slap a cover sheet on it, call it an assembly aid. Done. Tried that, and hand sketches. Wouldn't fly, their engineering group has to sign off and they want to make sure it's "analyzed". All that is needed is a note stating, "Adequate by demonstration." |
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Total Quality Management, Kaisen, or whatever fancy word folks are using... Is a good business philosophy. I get the Lean Six Sigma idea... And the Japanese companies that adopted fantastic *lean* manufacturing processes did it with an ideal and an ideaology that started *within* the company and every employee bought into it... They were going to war, and they wanted to win it. American manufacturing? Unions? I get the idea of lean manufacturing. I have worked in manufacturing. I did an internship at a Fram filter plant in Ogden Utah while I was working on my MBA... And the company officials would sit dumbfounded that Utah outperformed the Eastern-Seaboard facility that manufactured the same thing... They thought the solution wout be more Lean Six Sigma, and more TQM... Nope. Hire people who *want* the company to succeed, and who *want* to be successful themselves... There is a company that can be successful... I get the idea behind Six Sigma... I honestly do. It is a good idea... But if the company has to bring in *outside* ideas into the company, you already have a problem. Japanese companies took ideas, refined them, and applied them in manufacturing... Cut out waste, cut out redundancy, cut out bureacracy... And they kicked the ever-living-crap out of everyone in manufacturing... We had a Japanese car and an American car in the mid-80's growing up. The Japanses car doors shut tight. The American car doors shut with a clank and a scratch, and when you looked closely all four doors had different tolerances. I knew as a kid that the *process* was better in Japan than here in the US... Wal-Mart, a highly-successful American company was built by a man with a lot of ambition, who (whether he knew it or not) used a lot of "lean" ideas in building his company... Waste was discouraged. Inside-the-company ideas were used. Technology was used. Store managers were given tremendous leeway on working to make the company more money... All the while K-Mart was using Union labor, avoiding technology, and not allowing store managers to make even small decisions... Needless to say... I get the idea behind Six Sigma... the ideas are good... But if the ideas and motivation are not already *in* the company and *in* the culture... Good luck... I think I get what you're saying. I have a fair amount of experience with implementing agile software development at multiple companies I either worked for or consulted with. The number one problem with adopting agile is lack of buy in at all levels of the business. My experience with lean is more limited but I have participated in a Kaizen event where we had a stop watch and stood behind people doing their jobs so we could capture the steps. We really did identify wasted steps and come up with a more efficient standard set of steps to streamline what needed to be done. Unfortunately, just a few team leads and low level managers didn't like the whole thing and fought against it to the point where the refined procedures became complicated messes. To make lean, or agile, work, it takes commitment from every level in the company. And there in lies the most of the problem! People getting paid to scare the shit out of hourly employees just to build charts that will eventually amount to no action. A useless company expenditure! You should have been on the line helping build product!!! |
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Total Quality Management, Kaisen, or whatever fancy word folks are using... Is a good business philosophy. I get the Lean Six Sigma idea... And the Japanese companies that adopted fantastic *lean* manufacturing processes did it with an ideal and an ideaology that started *within* the company and every employee bought into it... They were going to war, and they wanted to win it. American manufacturing? Unions? I get the idea of lean manufacturing. I have worked in manufacturing. I did an internship at a Fram filter plant in Ogden Utah while I was working on my MBA... And the company officials would sit dumbfounded that Utah outperformed the Eastern-Seaboard facility that manufactured the same thing... They thought the solution wout be more Lean Six Sigma, and more TQM... Nope. Hire people who *want* the company to succeed, and who *want* to be successful themselves... There is a company that can be successful... I get the idea behind Six Sigma... I honestly do. It is a good idea... But if the company has to bring in *outside* ideas into the company, you already have a problem. Japanese companies took ideas, refined them, and applied them in manufacturing... Cut out waste, cut out redundancy, cut out bureacracy... And they kicked the ever-living-crap out of everyone in manufacturing... We had a Japanese car and an American car in the mid-80's growing up. The Japanses car doors shut tight. The American car doors shut with a clank and a scratch, and when you looked closely all four doors had different tolerances. I knew as a kid that the *process* was better in Japan than here in the US... Wal-Mart, a highly-successful American company was built by a man with a lot of ambition, who (whether he knew it or not) used a lot of "lean" ideas in building his company... Waste was discouraged. Inside-the-company ideas were used. Technology was used. Store managers were given tremendous leeway on working to make the company more money... All the while K-Mart was using Union labor, avoiding technology, and not allowing store managers to make even small decisions... Needless to say... I get the idea behind Six Sigma... the ideas are good... But if the ideas and motivation are not already *in* the company and *in* the culture... Good luck... I think I get what you're saying. I have a fair amount of experience with implementing agile software development at multiple companies I either worked for or consulted with. The number one problem with adopting agile is lack of buy in at all levels of the business. My experience with lean is more limited but I have participated in a Kaizen event where we had a stop watch and stood behind people doing their jobs so we could capture the steps. We really did identify wasted steps and come up with a more efficient standard set of steps to streamline what needed to be done. Unfortunately, just a few team leads and low level managers didn't like the whole thing and fought against it to the point where the refined procedures became complicated messes. To make lean, or agile, work, it takes commitment from every level in the company. And there in lies the most of the problem! People getting paid to scare the shit out of hourly employees just to build charts that will eventually amount to no action. A useless company expenditure! You should have been on the line helping build product!!! Sorry but you are very wrong. The teams put together to record people were almost 100 percent hourly employees who did the actual job every day. I was one of only a few "outsiders" and none of the people we watched seemed very nervous. They were pretty eager to help overall. I whipped up a couple utility programs, to address shortcomings in the commercial software package they were using, and they were very well received. The real problem ended up being a few team leads and entry level managers. My impression was that they didn't like the idea of standardized processes because they weren't going to be as critical to getting shit done. |
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Working towards yellow belt right now, why does this feel like training towards "nano-management"? You're probably doing it wrong. 6 Sigma isn't a management technique, it is a methodology for solving a particular class of problems. Specifically process problems. The method has steps, and each step has a set of tools that may be used as an aid to successfully completing the step. The steps are rational and reasonable. Define: What problem are you trying to solve, and more importantly, what aren't you trying to solve (You can't succeed if you can't stay focused) Measure: Prove you can measure the problem (How can you show you fixed it, if you can't measure it, or alternately... how will you know you can stop fixing it and go on to something else?) Analyze: What are the "knobs" that affect the process, What changes are likely to effect improvement. Improve: Implement the proposed changes (did you get the anticipated improvement) Control: Implement appropriate checks, or feedbacks, so that the improvements are sustained over time. There is nothing earth shaking in there. It is not magic. it does not make the incompetent, competent. It is, in essence, a checklist for the competent to follow to make sure they cover all the bases of normal process improvement. It is especially not a cure for poor upper management. No amount of 6-sigma-ing, or lean-ing, or 5-S-ing will fix a company where incentives are contrary to the goals of the organization. |
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Total Quality Management, Kaisen, or whatever fancy word folks are using... Is a good business philosophy. I get the Lean Six Sigma idea... And the Japanese companies that adopted fantastic *lean* manufacturing processes did it with an ideal and an ideaology that started *within* the company and every employee bought into it... They were going to war, and they wanted to win it. American manufacturing? Unions? I get the idea of lean manufacturing. I have worked in manufacturing. I did an internship at a Fram filter plant in Ogden Utah while I was working on my MBA... And the company officials would sit dumbfounded that Utah outperformed the Eastern-Seaboard facility that manufactured the same thing... They thought the solution wout be more Lean Six Sigma, and more TQM... Nope. Hire people who *want* the company to succeed, and who *want* to be successful themselves... There is a company that can be successful... I get the idea behind Six Sigma... I honestly do. It is a good idea... But if the company has to bring in *outside* ideas into the company, you already have a problem. Japanese companies took ideas, refined them, and applied them in manufacturing... Cut out waste, cut out redundancy, cut out bureacracy... And they kicked the ever-living-crap out of everyone in manufacturing... We had a Japanese car and an American car in the mid-80's growing up. The Japanses car doors shut tight. The American car doors shut with a clank and a scratch, and when you looked closely all four doors had different tolerances. I knew as a kid that the *process* was better in Japan than here in the US... Wal-Mart, a highly-successful American company was built by a man with a lot of ambition, who (whether he knew it or not) used a lot of "lean" ideas in building his company... Waste was discouraged. Inside-the-company ideas were used. Technology was used. Store managers were given tremendous leeway on working to make the company more money... All the while K-Mart was using Union labor, avoiding technology, and not allowing store managers to make even small decisions... Needless to say... I get the idea behind Six Sigma... the ideas are good... But if the ideas and motivation are not already *in* the company and *in* the culture... Good luck... I think I get what you're saying. I have a fair amount of experience with implementing agile software development at multiple companies I either worked for or consulted with. The number one problem with adopting agile is lack of buy in at all levels of the business. My experience with lean is more limited but I have participated in a Kaizen event where we had a stop watch and stood behind people doing their jobs so we could capture the steps. We really did identify wasted steps and come up with a more efficient standard set of steps to streamline what needed to be done. Unfortunately, just a few team leads and low level managers didn't like the whole thing and fought against it to the point where the refined procedures became complicated messes. To make lean, or agile, work, it takes commitment from every level in the company. And there in lies the most of the problem! People getting paid to scare the shit out of hourly employees just to build charts that will eventually amount to no action. A useless company expenditure! You should have been on the line helping build product!!! Sorry but you are very wrong. The teams put together to record people were almost 100 percent hourly employees who did the actual job every day. I was one of only a few "outsiders" and none of the people we watched seemed very nervous. They were pretty eager to help overall. I whipped up a couple utility programs, to address shortcomings in the commercial software package they were using, and they were very well received. The real problem ended up being a few team leads and entry level managers. My impression was that they didn't like the idea of standardized processes because they weren't going to be as critical to getting shit done. Yeah well that's great. My company is using it on field techs that see a different problem on every job It's total BS. |
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Quoted: I think I get what you're saying. I have a fair amount of experience with implementing agile software development at multiple companies I either worked for or consulted with. The number one problem with adopting agile is lack of buy in at all levels of the business. My experience with lean is more limited but I have participated in a Kaizen event where we had a stop watch and stood behind people doing their jobs so we could capture the steps. We really did identify wasted steps and come up with a more efficient standard set of steps to streamline what needed to be done. Unfortunately, just a few team leads and low level managers didn't like the whole thing and fought against it to the point where the refined procedures became complicated messes. To make lean, or agile, work, it takes commitment from every level in the company. Everyone has to be on board or it is just a waste of time and resources for everyone For those not familier, that wasted time can add up to thousands of dollars every year |
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<snip> Sorry but you are very wrong. The teams put together to record people were almost 100 percent hourly employees who did the actual job every day. I was one of only a few "outsiders" and none of the people we watched seemed very nervous. They were pretty eager to help overall. I whipped up a couple utility programs, to address shortcomings in the commercial software package they were using, and they were very well received. The real problem ended up being a few team leads and entry level managers. My impression was that they didn't like the idea of standardized processes because they weren't going to be as critical to getting shit done. Perhaps your company did it correctly. I was pulled from engineering to "stand over and monitor" lines in manufacturing - a line process that I had absolutely no idea of what they were doing. This was an attempt to implement "six sigma" to define processes that were inefficient, redundant, or unnecessary. I was one of many in engineering that were called upon to do this. It was a total waste of time - just because we were in engineering doesn't mean we know the slightest thing about the line manufacturing. To paraphrase a post from above, "if not implemented properly it's a waste of time". But I still stand by my statement that I've never seen this six sigma stuff ever pay for itself in any company I've ever worked for! |
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It is especially not a cure for poor upper management. No amount of 6-sigma-ing, or lean-ing, or 5-S-ing will fix a company where incentives are contrary to the goals of the organization.
This definitely applies to my employer. 6 billion dollar a year circus that let's the clown decide where the money is allocated. I'm still waiting for the elephants to arrive. May I have another chart and graph with a double shot of espresso please. |
| Interesting, sounds a bit like Applied Behavioral Analysis. Tons of data to implement what is often a crayon simple fix. The problem with ABA is not the theory, but usually the folks that espouse it are bizarre fanatics. Oh, and the side effects are often disguised. Not to say it can't produce results. There is a downside to having people function like CNC machinery. |
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Some say that while Scientology claims to cure psychosis, et al, it actually is the cause. Likewise, Six Sigma causes what it claims to cure...inefficiency, waste, a masturbatory bureaucratic nightmare, etc. I believe that, like Scientology, Six Sigma is a cruel joke by it's founder. |
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The company I work for has embraced it totally. It has totaly destroyed employee moral and turned everyone into number chancing drones. We are already there.. As are we People that administer it are only in it as career move, Goose stepping lemmings (climbers ) that would eat there children to get ahead, |
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The company I work for has embraced it totally. It has totaly destroyed employee moral and turned everyone into number chancing drones. Same here. My employer (US based, with mostly unionized production facilities) was bought by a Japanese company and ever since then it's been a complete clusterfuck. We have charts and numbers coming out of our ears and productivity is pretty much gone. Everybody spends all their time updating useless charts that nobody really cares about, and having meetings about charts that nobody cares about. We have management mandating dumb shit that makes no sense and if you dare question it...let's just say everybody is scared for their jobs so now so they'll never say shit. And every month or two management latches onto some new buzzword for a process and does a half-assed implementation of it while proclaiming it's gonna save us. Usually before it's even fully implemented we're changing it again. Of course, maybe the fact that all this Six Sigma and Lean crap is being attempted by a shitty company has given me the wrong impression, but damn it seems like a bunch of bullshit. I'm in software development so I'm shielded from some of the bullshit, but I really think that my job along with every one's at this facility is going away thanks to all the mismanagement. In the 13 yrs I've been here, I can say that things were a lot better without all this crap that the Japanese heaped on us. Just let people get the job done, jeezus. But hey, it's their company to run and they can run it how they want. Enjoy that negative bottom line dumbasses. |