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Posted: 7/17/2002 10:58:27 PM EDT
Hey guys, I've got a question. The lease for my apartment has a "not allowed to have such and such stuff" clause, which in the list includes "firearms". No, not illegal firearms, it just says firearms. I've considered moving out, but it seems worth it to stay as long as I don't publicize my interests. This sucks, but leaving this place sucks to. I'm not too familiar with the way the law works, but is this reasonable for my landlord to ban guns? I've tried talking him into amending my lease, but no go, he's against guns at a personal level. I presume if my city passed an ordinance banning guns from apartments I can cry bloody murder and shove the text of the constitution into the face of my traitorous liberal city officials, however since this is the private property of the landlord he gets to make some rules. Wait, although I merely rent the apartment, do I get any claim to the private ownership of my apartment for the duration of the lease? That is, within the confines of my studio room, do I set the rules or the landlord? If he sets the rules, where is the line drawn on what can and can not be arbitrarily decided by him? Can he make us sign a lease that says we wont bring porn into our rooms, or not allow gay/black/foreign/republican/democrat/truckers/hotrodders/etc guests to spend the night? No, my landlord has no such rules but could a landlord possibly have such power? Here in Madison, even if such actions are legal, the public will crucify anyone for such actions, but the liberal public has no sympathy for a gun owner. And please don't tell me I deserve what I get for being a liberal, albeit a gun tottin' lib.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:39:04 PM EDT
I gaurandamntee you that his apartment has SOME kind of deal with HUD or some other Federal "housing" type act that he is a part of. It is the same form that prevents him from not leasing due to race, religion and all that other stuff. Here's the deal, he HAD to sign that thing, whereas he basically HAS to allow his tenants to use their Constitutional rights as far as renting out a space. Legally, this is an IFFY strategy, but go ahead and remind him that owning guns is Constitutional and that he is violating your rights if he boots you. Then again, you already signed your rights away when you moved in. Then again, he is depriving you of your rights. Then again he OWNS the place....vicious circle =( Tough call...Tell him you sold them or keep them at a friends...But beware, if he thinks you have them in the apartment, he will find a way to get in there, and there aint shit you can do about it. I WOULDNT HAVE EVEN BROUGHT IT UP IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 2:05:01 AM EDT
So far the only dwellings I heard of that has a no firearms rule are housing projects and crap like that.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 3:10:56 AM EDT
I don't think so. Not even in HUD housing. If I recall correctly, the Supreme Court ruled on this a few years back (specifically on federal HUD housing) and found that banning persons in a federal housing project from keeping otherwise legal weapons there was a violation of their Equal Protection rights under the 14th Amendment. Contact the legal staff at the NRA. One of your membership benefits is that these guys will viciously go after stuff like this.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 4:12:22 AM EDT
And now, with the new TIPS informant program, your landlord is the type they want as informants. He could turn you in as a terrorist and make your life a living hell. Best to just get the f$% out of there. Just my opinion... fullclip
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 4:36:15 AM EDT
The apartment I live in right now has no such restrictions but there is a nasty rider in the lease: "If any tennant has three formal complaints filed against them from other tennants of the complex for the same offense that tennant will be subject to eviction for that violation" What this means (and this has happened) is that if three or more of your "fellow" dwellers file formal complaints about you at the office for the same thing (i.e. loud music) you can get tossed to the curb. From what I understand, they can complain about anything and the office will find a way to make it a violation just to shut up the other tennants from complaining further. Case in point: I was taking out my trash and put the trash bag just outside my door when the phone rang, after talking on the phone for about a half and hour I took the trash out to the dumpster. Later in the week I get a notice from the office that annother tennant complained about me "leaving trash on my front steps" and that I was violating the building's trash proticalls. My explaination to the office was promptly ignored and I was told that if two other tennants filed complaints for the same thing my lease could either be canceled (meaning I could not renew it) or I could be fined. The way I see it, if you live in an anti-gun apartment building owned by anti-gunners and occupied by a majority of anti-gunners then someone could "complain" that your firearms pose a "public health danger" and file a complaint on you. The anti-gun leaning landlord could then cook up some reason that you are violating someone ELSE's living rights and find a way to remove you. My advice would be to move out and find a pro-gun apartment. I am in that process now as I'm getting sick and tired of getting glared at by the soccer moms while transporting rifle and pistol cases to and from my car.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 4:40:59 AM EDT
For all the AR15 members that believe the owner of private property should be able to ban guns - HERE'S A CONSEQUENCE! Take your rent elsewhere.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 4:48:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/18/2002 7:20:07 AM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 4:54:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By natez: I don't think so. Not even in HUD housing. If I recall correctly, the Supreme Court ruled on this a few years back (specifically on federal HUD housing) and found that banning persons in a federal housing project from keeping otherwise legal weapons there was a violation of their Equal Protection rights under the 14th Amendment. Contact the legal staff at the NRA. One of your membership benefits is that these guys will viciously go after stuff like this.
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I'll check the US Supreme Court later, but a quick search reviewed the following: [url]http://hematite.com/dragon/bans.html[/url]
1990 Virginia Poor citizens singled out for gun ban in Virginia. U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia upheld a ban imposed by the Richmond Housing Authority on the possession of all firearms, whether operable or not, in public housing projects. The Richmond Tenants Organization had challenged the ban, arguing that such requirement had made the city's 14,000 public housing residents second-class citizens. (Richmond Tenants Org. v. Richmond Dev. & Hous. Auth., No. C.A. 3:90CV00576 (E.D.Va. Dec. 3, 1990).) (GMU, p. 97)
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Still checking...
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 5:45:02 AM EDT
A private apartment owner can put all sorts of stuff into the lease and if you sign you have to abide by it or face eviction. Your landlord could ban cheese from being brought into the apartment. Unreasonable...yes. Bad business...yes. You are right about your claim of private ownership of your apartment for the duration of the lease, but you have already limited that right when you agreed to not bring in guns. Fight4yourrights is exactly right. Don't go where you are not wanted.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 7:43:56 PM EDT
It they make you move out, then move out a few days early. Leave about 10 cats, with lots of food, and lots of water then close the door behind you. Leave the AC on for them.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 8:06:54 PM EDT
If your worried about having people see you load and unload guns from a day at the range, go get yourself a Fender guitar case and rework the insides to hold all your goodies. Then your nosey neighbors will think you are a musician.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 8:09:26 PM EDT
No they can't really do that,they don't have the same rules as a home owner. But you will never get a juge to side with you.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 8:20:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 9:24:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 9:30:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/18/2002 9:32:01 PM EDT by Badseed]
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: If your worried about having people see you load and unload guns from a day at the range, go get yourself a Fender guitar case and rework the insides to hold all your goodies. Then your nosey neighbors will think you are a musician.
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What he said. AR and an HK91 and 2 pistols fit just fine in mine. (Rifles broken down of course, velcro is your friend) BTW, My condo has no stipulations against firearms... just don't want to be a burglar target. No one needs to know what I have 'cept family and friends. [beer]
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 9:38:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 10:06:24 PM EDT
Move out! It sounds like you're already in violation of the lease you signed. If he had rules discriminating against people (race, gender, religion, etc.) he would be subject to prosecution. Not the same thing. He could keep you from bringing in porn, if you agreed to those terms in the lease. But I doubt he could keep you from reading the bible, the Koran, or the Wall Street Journal even if you agreed not to in writing. On guns, drugs, alcohol, tobacco, pets and probably a thousand other items you just aren't going to get any support from the government and will be held to the terms of your contract with the landlord.
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 5:59:37 AM EDT
sesat_ram, there are plenty of apartment complexes here in Madison that have no such restrictions, including the one where I live. However, if you are living in one of the student housing sections that are owned by the University you may very well be SOL. Actually like a few have said before me, you're already SOL since you signed that lease. I wouldn't sweat it much. Change the locks on your doors so that your landlord can't "inspect" your apartment for an alleged "gas leak". Also, if you have any maintenance problems, request that they only come to fix it when you are there.
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 7:52:25 AM EDT
I had an apartment that had the same thing, only they mentioned ammunition, not guns. My response? I blew them off, and they knew it, but didn't care. Worked for me...
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 7:56:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 8:10:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Aimless: If this is a private landlord (i.e. not goverment owned subsidized etc) I don't see why he can't ban guns the constitution doesn't apply at all to private citizens.Either don't let him know you have guns so he won't throw you out or leave (that's what I would probably do) of course if you already signed a lease then you are breaking it and could get in a jam. Edited to add-Read leases CAREFULLY before you sign them-I've used a lease that I copied from someone else for years that says that I can raise the tenant's rent 10% whenever I want and that I can charge them for any increase in the property tax on the property to make them pay it. One tenant out of about 6 catches it and says something. The rest just sign it. I'd never do that to anyone but what a bunch of maroons. Oh I also goofed when doing a lease once and the tenant could have been stuck w/ staying in the apartment a month longer than she intended to just because she did not read it.
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"The constitution doesn't apply at all to private citizens"?????????????? Can I asume you meant private PROPERTY? Because I assure you, I am a private citizen, and the constitution most certainly applies to me.
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 8:11:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By lostwildcat: Just my .02 When we lived in an apartemnt we had a clause that said firearms were illegal on the property. I asked about it before I signed the lease and they said they could NOT stop someone from keeping firearms in their apt becuase it was your space and you have full rights to it with exceptions like fire sprinklers maintenance etc. The rule only applies to the common grounds ie the pool, parking lot etc. Check with an attorney in your area. I think If you are paying rent, they cant tell you what you can and cant have regarding personal property.
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Check with an attorney, but I think that WI allows this type of lease/contract. A lease is a contract and the parties to that contract can agree to all sorts of provisions unless that provision is illegal or unreasonable. I would think that this is unreasonable, but I doubt you will find a court that will agree. Like Troy said, you have to pay attention to what you sign. Now a provision that said you if you violated the lease you would have to pay $100,000 is unreasonable and wouldn't be enforced. If you violate the lease, it is up to the landlord to evict you. They may or may not choose to do so. I have had friends that live in "no pet" apartments have 4 cats and nothing happened.
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 9:22:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tommytrauma: "The constitution doesn't apply at all to private citizens"?????????????? Can I asume you meant private PROPERTY? Because I assure you, I am a private citizen, and the constitution most certainly applies to me.
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He means that the Constitution is a document which spells out the limits on government power - it doesn't limit a citizen's rights to do what he wants with his private property. In this case, the landlord/owner is that citizen, and the apartment is his property.
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