[ARCHIVED THREAD] - MLM scams (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 6/11/2012 10:09:13 AM EDT
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I just got approached by an MLM Zombie here at work. Nice older couple; the wife tried to recruit me for some energy one called "Ignite"  She used all the classic Amway tactics of complimenting me, telling me how much people were making, using stupid buzzwords, etc...but she wasn't as hardcore as some of the brainwashed minions I've met before. I actually sort of felt bad for the husband who stood there staring off while she went on about it. Anyway, they were customers, so I politely cut her off and told her I'm in the process of bringing 2 products to market (technically true) as well as working on getting my fireworks stand up for the year (In addition to running my own business) and I doubt I'd have time to go to one of her seminars, but to please leave me the info  I have a feeling I'll be seeing more "Ignite" retards around here soon... ...anyone else encounter some "great opportunities from energy deregulation" folks yet  Speed |
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I knew a lady, she was virtually a professional MLM person, she was real good about getting in on the ground floor on MLM things, selling being a dealer to all her friends, over and over again. She actually made a fairly good amount of money with these schemes, of course she was the only one who made money, every one she was able to talk into joining her never made any money, she had been doing this for a couple of years and was bound to be running out of suckers soon, I lost contact with her a long time ago so I don't know the ultimate result, but it had to be bad, since she had suckered most of her friends. |
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I think it's disingenuous to call MLM a scam. Most people don't make any money in MLM but, that's only because most people don't actually WORK the plans. I know a half dozen or so people who makw decent money in MLM and a whole bunch more who sign up, give their money away and then do nothing or spent their efforts doing a bunch of stuff wrong.
Like most businesses, you get out what you put in and it's much easier to fail than to succeed. |
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Quoted: I think it's disingenuous to call MLM a scam. Most people don't make any money in MLM but, that's only because most people don't actually WORK the plans. I know a half dozen or so people who makw decent money in MLM and a whole bunch more who sign up, give their money away and then do nothing or spent their efforts doing a bunch of stuff wrong. Like most businesses, you get out what you put in and it's much easier to fail than to succeed. MLMs are a scam because they make false promises of success and sucker people into spending their own money from actual jobs on self help literature and seminars that are useless. Many, many intelligent and hardworking people have busted their asses at MLMs and have nothing to show for it. It's not a business; businesses sell a product or service. MLMs sell empty promises and broken dreams to the naive, and tell them that their personal success rests in their ability to sell the same bullshit to anyone else they can. Speed |
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Quoted: People who say, "bringing 2 products to market" belong in MLM. I think you'd have excellent synergy with them.  Lol, ya as soon as I said it I kinda felt funny...it just rolled out. I guess if I was to be more specific, I could have said I'm bringing 2 products to the Amazon Market  Speed |
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I knew a lady, she was virtually a professional MLM person, she was real good about getting in on the ground floor on MLM things, selling being a dealer to all her friends, over and over again. She actually made a fairly good amount of money with these schemes, of course she was the only one who made money, every one she was able to talk into joining her never made any money, she had been doing this for a couple of years and was bound to be running out of suckers soon, I lost contact with her a long time ago so I don't know the ultimate result, but it had to be bad, since she had suckered most of her friends. Those are the ones I feel the saddest for. Sure, they make some money doing it, but after years and years of it, they find that they have run off every friend they have ever had, people who were true friends no longer take their calls, and avoid them in public, people who were lessor friends and associates end up with highly negative opinions of them. These people burn a bridge every time they hustle a friend or relative into something that they aren't going to be successful at. |
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Quoted: I think it's disingenuous to call MLM a scam. Most people don't make any money in MLM but, that's only because most people don't actually WORK the plans. I know a half dozen or so people who makw decent money in MLM and a whole bunch more who sign up, give their money away and then do nothing or spent their efforts doing a bunch of stuff wrong. Like most businesses, you get out what you put in and it's much easier to fail than to succeed. It is the very definition of a scam. The fact that you purportedly know so many people who fell for it means you need to start hanging out with a higher caliber of people. |
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I think it's disingenuous to call MLM a scam. Most people don't make any money in MLM but, that's only because most people don't actually WORK the plans. I know a half dozen or so people who makw decent money in MLM and a whole bunch more who sign up, give their money away and then do nothing or spent their efforts doing a bunch of stuff wrong. Like most businesses, you get out what you put in and it's much easier to fail than to succeed. Ive spoken to my accountant about these things. She says from her personal experience "In the past 30 years i have had numerous clients engage in this type of business. In that 30 years i have never seen one that made money. Plenty have shown me huge deposit sums and lots of checks. The problem is when you compare those deposits with money spent. A business must look at not only money coming in but money going out". After 30 years she says the best she has seen was a wash when you actually sit down and look at the big picture. Its easy for them to show you a bunch of checks and claim "Im making so much money" but in reality its simply a pyramid scheme and that is a unsustainable business model. Not saying noone has made money as obvioulsy someone has but those that actually make money are few and far between. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I think it's disingenuous to call MLM a scam. Most people don't make any money in MLM but, that's only because most people don't actually WORK the plans. I know a half dozen or so people who makw decent money in MLM and a whole bunch more who sign up, give their money away and then do nothing or spent their efforts doing a bunch of stuff wrong. Like most businesses, you get out what you put in and it's much easier to fail than to succeed. Ive spoken to my accountant about these things. She says from her personal experience "In the past 30 years i have had numerous clients engage in this type of business. In that 30 years i have never seen one that made money. Plenty have shown me huge deposit sums and lots of checks. The problem is when you compare those deposits with money spent. A business must look at not only money coming in but money going out". After 30 years she says the best she has seen was a wash when you actually sit down and look at the big picture. Its easy for them to show you a bunch of checks and claim "Im making so much money" but in reality its simply a pyramid scheme and that is a unsustainable business model. Not saying noone has made money as obvioulsy someone has but those that actually make money are few and far between. Exactly. There a plenty of folks who made money investing with Bernie Madoff too, but overall that is not a sustainable business model Really, whats wrong with just marketing and selling a tangible product conventionally? Speed |
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I think it's disingenuous to call MLM a scam. Most people don't make any money in MLM but, that's only because most people don't actually WORK the plans. I know a half dozen or so people who makw decent money in MLM and a whole bunch more who sign up, give their money away and then do nothing or spent their efforts doing a bunch of stuff wrong. Like most businesses, you get out what you put in and it's much easier to fail than to succeed. MLMs are a scam because they make false promises of success and sucker people into spending their own money from actual jobs on self help literature and seminars that are useless. Many, many intelligent and hardworking people have busted their asses at MLMs and have nothing to show for it. It's not a business; businesses sell a product or service. MLMs sell empty promises and broken dreams to the naive, and tell them that their personal success rests in their ability to sell the same bullshit to anyone else they can. Speed How does your definition account for the people I personally know who have made a decent living at MLM. If it was just a scam there wouldn't be a way to succeed and yet some people do. |
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Quoted: How does your definition account for the people I personally know who have made a decent living at MLM. If it was just a scam there wouldn't be a way to succeed and yet some people do. Two possibilities, the gentler of which is that you are simply mistaken. But given your stalwart defense of pyramid scams, which one have you currently bought into? |
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MLM just makes " Pyramid Scheme" sound nicer. GD Our hero: http://greatestconartists.webs.com/Charles%20Ponzi.jpg Who died broke.
eta: but was a natty dresser! 
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Quoted: How does your definition account for the people I personally know who have made a decent living at MLM. If it was just a scam there wouldn't be a way to succeed and yet some people do. People made a decent living by telemarketing vitamins and water filters too. Doesn't mean it wasn't a scam. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I think it's disingenuous to call MLM a scam. Most people don't make any money in MLM but, that's only because most people don't actually WORK the plans. I know a half dozen or so people who makw decent money in MLM and a whole bunch more who sign up, give their money away and then do nothing or spent their efforts doing a bunch of stuff wrong. Like most businesses, you get out what you put in and it's much easier to fail than to succeed. MLMs are a scam because they make false promises of success and sucker people into spending their own money from actual jobs on self help literature and seminars that are useless. Many, many intelligent and hardworking people have busted their asses at MLMs and have nothing to show for it. It's not a business; businesses sell a product or service. MLMs sell empty promises and broken dreams to the naive, and tell them that their personal success rests in their ability to sell the same bullshit to anyone else they can. Speed How does your definition account for the people I personally know who have made a decent living at MLM. If it was just a scam there wouldn't be a way to succeed and yet some people do. See my other post. People made money with Berni Madoff, people made money on penny stocks, people made money with power balance bracelets...hell I'm sure there are some relatively wealthy Nigerans out there who plug away at the computer typing emails all fucking day. People can make money on scams, thus the "scam", but most don't, regardless of skill, work ethic, or perseverance because the "business" is already stacked against them. If your business model is to make all your vendors profitable by forcing them to recruit more vendors, eventually you don't have enough consumers to support the vendors. It's called over saturation. Add in the fact that most MLM's are only concerned with the tangible products as a way to skirt SEC and FTC laws and you should be able to see it's a bad proposition that relies on lies and unrealistic expectations for it's existence. What great, well known, reputable product has ever existed for any real length of time that was marketed and sold via MLM? About the only thing I can think of is Amsoil, and that is certainly debated as far as it's value. Genuine in home marketing like Avon, Tupperware, Mary Kay, etc...relies on the value of their products and the profits generated by direct sales; not recruitment or the sale of self help products to their reps. Speed |
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MLMs thrive on large groups of individuals who have never tried the product/service/thing, once they run out of cheap/easy targets it eventually collapses.
In my area Advocare & Body By Vi (Both weightloss products) are going crazy. I know a few that are making mid 6 figures a year, and plenty who don't have a dime to their name off of the stuff. The additional problem is that MANY people out there who just don't have the necessary skills to market and sell products. In 2009 I sold over a million dollars worth of self help books online, the self-help books contained information on exactly what I was doing, out of the thousands upon thousands of people that bought those books from me, only 2 were ever really successful. Why? Out of the thousands, those two were the only ones who were able/willing to start going to the library and read up on additional skills that were required, most people were looking for a 'get rich quick scam' to make money and didn't want to spend time on learning. |
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How does your definition account for the people I personally know who have made a decent living at MLM. If it was just a scam there wouldn't be a way to succeed and yet some people do. Two possibilities, the gentler of which is that you are simply mistaken. But given your stalwart defense of pyramid scams, which one have you currently bought into? I don't participate in MLM solely because I don't have the drive to be successful at it. I did sign up for AMWAY about 15 years ago but I never worked at it very hard and just ended costing myself some money. I'm not a stalwart defender of MLM, for what it's worth. I even said in my intial post that the large majority of people I knew who tried it failed. I presume that sample holds true through out most of society. I still think it's dishonest to call it a scam. I don't think it's a sustainable business model for most people but, it's not a scam. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How does your definition account for the people I personally know who have made a decent living at MLM. If it was just a scam there wouldn't be a way to succeed and yet some people do. Two possibilities, the gentler of which is that you are simply mistaken. But given your stalwart defense of pyramid scams, which one have you currently bought into? I don't participate in MLM solely because I don't have the drive to be successful at it. I did sign up for AMWAY about 15 years ago but I never worked at it very hard and just ended costing myself some money. I'm not a stalwart defender of MLM, for what it's worth. I even said in my intial post that the large majority of people I knew who tried it failed. I presume that sample holds true through out most of society. I still think it's dishonest to call it a scam. I don't think it's a sustainable business model for most people but, it's not a scam. I think you are just uninformed. Count yourself lucky that you didn't piss away too much money on Amway 15 years ago. This covers the basics:  |
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I think it's disingenuous to call MLM a scam. Most people don't make any money in MLM but, that's only because most people don't actually WORK the plans. I know a half dozen or so people who makw decent money in MLM and a whole bunch more who sign up, give their money away and then do nothing or spent their efforts doing a bunch of stuff wrong. Like most businesses, you get out what you put in and it's much easier to fail than to succeed. MLMs are a scam because they make false promises of success and sucker people into spending their own money from actual jobs on self help literature and seminars that are useless. Many, many intelligent and hardworking people have busted their asses at MLMs and have nothing to show for it. It's not a business; businesses sell a product or service. MLMs sell empty promises and broken dreams to the naive, and tell them that their personal success rests in their ability to sell the same bullshit to anyone else they can. Speed |
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Quoted: I think it's disingenuous to call MLM a scam. Most people don't make any money in MLM but, that's only because most people don't actually WORK the plans. I know a half dozen or so people who makw decent money in MLM and a whole bunch more who sign up, give their money away and then do nothing or spent their efforts doing a bunch of stuff wrong. Like most businesses, you get out what you put in and it's much easier to fail than to succeed. MLMs only exist because of a very narrow court ruling in the 70s here it is In the administrative law judge's decision, three salutary features were pointed out with respect to the Amway program:
By abiding by these three criteria, network marketing and direct sales companies provide themselves with an "umbrella of legal protection." The Amway Safeguards Rule has been successfully cited many times since 1979 in defense of legally operating companies. The Amway Case is Still the RuleMore than two decades later, the Amway decision is cited in virtually every federal or state case involving an MLM company. Although tension will always exist between the industry and government over the definition of a "retail sale" [i.e., distributor personal use v. nonparticipant sales], the Amway safeguards test continues to be the "gold standard" in evaluating the difference between legitimate MLM v. illegal pyramids. http://www.mlmlegal.com/landmark.html |
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How does your definition account for the people I personally know who have made a decent living at MLM. If it was just a scam there wouldn't be a way to succeed and yet some people do. Two possibilities, the gentler of which is that you are simply mistaken. But given your stalwart defense of pyramid scams, which one have you currently bought into? I don't participate in MLM solely because I don't have the drive to be successful at it. I did sign up for AMWAY about 15 years ago but I never worked at it very hard and just ended costing myself some money. I'm not a stalwart defender of MLM, for what it's worth. I even said in my intial post that the large majority of people I knew who tried it failed. I presume that sample holds true through out most of society. I still think it's dishonest to call it a scam. I don't think it's a sustainable business model for most people but, it's not a scam. Make no mistake, it IS a scam. The only people who make money, more often than not, are the owners and first 20 people or so in. If you are not in that early of a stage, the market saturates lightning fast, which means from the start your chance of making money is almost nil. It is very dishonest and in some cases, people who "make money" off the MLM are not even working the business! See: Amway "Diamonds" who got their rank just long enough to hit the motivational speaker circuit. The only thing that legally defines MLM from the Pyramid Scheme laws is the movement of product. And that is a fine line. |
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MLMs thrive on large groups of individuals who have never tried the product/service/thing, once they run out of cheap/easy targets it eventually collapses. In my area Advocare & Body By Vi (Both weightloss products) are going crazy. I know a few that are making mid 6 figures a year, and plenty who don't have a dime to their name off of the stuff. The additional problem is that MANY people out there who just don't have the necessary skills to market and sell products. In 2009 I sold over a million dollars worth of self help books online, the self-help books contained information on exactly what I was doing, out of the thousands upon thousands of people that bought those books from me, only 2 were ever really successful. Why? Out of the thousands, those two were the only ones who were able/willing to start going to the library and read up on additional skills that were required, most people were looking for a 'get rich quick scam' to make money and didn't want to spend time on learning. Kind of like the quote from School for Scoundrels. "Who here has tried self help books?.....Well, they don't work because your self sucks" |
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Only one I ever had press me was a Primerica guy that came into my job He make a huge deal about it being Citibank and working for Citibank but you needed a crowbar to get the Primerica name out of um as soon I got that out of him I googled while he was standing there , you could see him deflate and he slinked away |
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I think it's disingenuous to call MLM a scam. Most people don't make any money in MLM but, that's only because most people don't actually WORK the plans. I know a half dozen or so people who makw decent money in MLM and a whole bunch more who sign up, give their money away and then do nothing or spent their efforts doing a bunch of stuff wrong. Like most businesses, you get out what you put in and it's much easier to fail than to succeed. MLMs are a scam because they make false promises of success and sucker people into spending their own money from actual jobs on self help literature and seminars that are useless. Many, many intelligent and hardworking people have busted their asses at MLMs and have nothing to show for it. It's not a business; businesses sell a product or service. MLMs sell empty promises and broken dreams to the naive, and tell them that their personal success rests in their ability to sell the same bullshit to anyone else they can. Speed How does your definition account for the people I personally know who have made a decent living at MLM. If it was just a scam there wouldn't be a way to succeed and yet some people do. In any scam, there's at least one person who succeeds. Your definition doesn't account for the fact that its not really a business. Businesses sell products or services for a profit. MLM is a mafia style scam in which high levels take a large cut from their lower employees, essentially just giving them a "taste of the action". So what if your friends made money. They're the Capos. |
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Quoted: or as said above cash flow and volume is not the same as profits Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I think it's disingenuous to call MLM a scam. Most people don't make any money in MLM but, that's only because most people don't actually WORK the plans. I know a half dozen or so people who makw decent money in MLM and a whole bunch more who sign up, give their money away and then do nothing or spent their efforts doing a bunch of stuff wrong. Like most businesses, you get out what you put in and it's much easier to fail than to succeed. MLMs are a scam because they make false promises of success and sucker people into spending their own money from actual jobs on self help literature and seminars that are useless. Many, many intelligent and hardworking people have busted their asses at MLMs and have nothing to show for it. It's not a business; businesses sell a product or service. MLMs sell empty promises and broken dreams to the naive, and tell them that their personal success rests in their ability to sell the same bullshit to anyone else they can. Speed How does your definition account for the people I personally know who have made a decent living at MLM. If it was just a scam there wouldn't be a way to succeed and yet some people do. In any scam, there's at least one person who succeeds. Your definition doesn't account for the fact that its not really a business. Businesses sell products or services for a profit. MLM is a mafia style scam in which high levels take a large cut from their lower employees, essentially just giving them a "taste of the action". So what if your friends made money. They're the Capos. |
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MLM's are like money pools... Get in early, donate your money with the feeling that you'll be able to convince others to donate their money and for those others to be able to convince others. Still the originator of the scheme takes in the bulk of the money on the backs of suckers conning more suckers... It's truly a wierd thing.
Nobody gets ripped off, everybody knows it's a scheme. Everybody is a sucker and a con artist at the same time. Why they aren't closed down, I dunnno. |
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Only one I ever had press me was a Primerica guy that came into my job He make a huge deal about it being Citibank and working for Citibank but you needed a crowbar to get the Primerica name out of um as soon I got that out of him I googled while he was standing there , you could see him deflate and he slinked away My sister got involved in one and she would not tell me who she was working for for love nor money. once i got it out some googling later and she never brought it upo again. That was three years ago. I dont know if she is still involved with them or not. |
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I think it's disingenuous to call MLM a scam. Most people don't make any money in MLM but, that's only because most people don't actually WORK the plans. I know a half dozen or so people who makw decent money in MLM and a whole bunch more who sign up, give their money away and then do nothing or spent their efforts doing a bunch of stuff wrong. Like most businesses, you get out what you put in and it's much easier to fail than to succeed. 
So which one do you work for? Because "work the plan" sounds like a fucking catch-phrase corporate-speak if I ever heard it. |
| My mom works as a home health caregiver, and a few years ago, when she worked at a retirement village under a home health agency, she and the lady she took care of decided to start selling Avon. Yeah, it's an MLM, and she quit doing it after she realized it would take more money than it was worth to promote the product, but I got a ton of Skin So Soft, which was great considering I was working at a summer camp in 2009. |
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Quoted: When you have people such as Donald Trump saying if he had to do it all over again, he would do MLM, that must mean something. probably because he owns one LOL http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/11/23/donald-trump-enters-the-world-of-multi-level-marketing/ |
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When you have people such as Donald Trump saying if he had to do it all over again, he would do MLM, that must mean something. probably because he owns one LOL http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/11/23/donald-trump-enters-the-world-of-multi-level-marketing/ 
MLM sounds like a great idea... if you're the President/CEO. Slightly unrelated note... there are people who STILL think that snake oil salesman would make a great President of the United States. |
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Quoted: I think it's disingenuous to call MLM a scam. Most people don't make any money in MLM but, that's only because most people don't actually WORK the plans. I know a half dozen or so people who makw decent money in MLM and a whole bunch more who sign up, give their money away and then do nothing or spent their efforts doing a bunch of stuff wrong. Like most businesses, you get out what you put in and it's much easier to fail than to succeed. wanna buy some pellets that boost your MPG? or better yet I can set ya up to sell um I mean damn more MPG!!!! these things sell themselves You just sell to your friends and family first and the word of mouth will just spread from there people will be beating your door down in weeks |
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My wife's best friend in high school is one of those people - http://www.danijohnson.com/ |
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Quoted: I know a few people who have been quite successful working MLM. I use a product from a MLM company and couldn't be happier with it. When you have people such as Donald Trump saying if he had to do it all over again, he would do MLM, that must mean something. Are you seriously spouting the recommendation of Donald Trump as something to boast about? I'd ask some of Donald Trump's past investors what they think about his business prowess Also as has been posted, Donald trump started his own MLM company, so his opinion is not biased at all  Speed |
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I know many people in MLM and yes, they mostly are a scam. For the most part, they skirt the edges of legality.
I have a few close friends who have started several MLM's with various products and have gotten very wealthy from them. Basically they each have 10 to 12 thousand people in their downlines. These are professional MLM people. When the boss introduces a new product, they all buy it and sell a few to other people. Boss 1 approaches boss 2 and offers to market product #2 to his downline if boss 2 offers product #1 to his respective downline. Most big time MLM people know each other, there are only a handful of them in the US and Canada. They go back and forth making deals with each other increasing each others net worth. The only thing that slows them down is the next great product. Sadly, the people at the end of the line work their asses off and get next to nothing other than the hopes of endless riches and checks in their mailbox. Oh, and that never happens. |
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I think it's disingenuous to call MLM a scam. Most people don't make any money in MLM but, that's only because most people don't actually WORK the plans. I know a half dozen or so people who makw decent money in MLM and a whole bunch more who sign up, give their money away and then do nothing or spent their efforts doing a bunch of stuff wrong. Like most businesses, you get out what you put in and it's much easier to fail than to succeed. MLMs are a scam because they make false promises of success and sucker people into spending their own money from actual jobs on self help literature and seminars that are useless. Many, many intelligent and hardworking people have busted their asses at MLMs and have nothing to show for it. It's not a business; businesses sell a product or service. MLMs sell empty promises and broken dreams to the naive, and tell them that their personal success rests in their ability to sell the same bullshit to anyone else they can. Speed How does your definition account for the people I personally know who have made a decent living at MLM. If it was just a scam there wouldn't be a way to succeed and yet some people do. See my other post. People made money with Berni Madoff, people made money on penny stocks, people made money with power balance bracelets...hell I'm sure there are some relatively wealthy Nigerans out there who plug away at the computer typing emails all fucking day. People can make money on scams, thus the "scam", but most don't, regardless of skill, work ethic, or perseverance because the "business" is already stacked against them. If your business model is to make all your vendors profitable by forcing them to recruit more vendors, eventually you don't have enough consumers to support the vendors. It's called over saturation. Add in the fact that most MLM's are only concerned with the tangible products as a way to skirt SEC and FTC laws and you should be able to see it's a bad proposition that relies on lies and unrealistic expectations for it's existence. What great, well known, reputable product has ever existed for any real length of time that was marketed and sold via MLM? About the only thing I can think of is Amsoil, and that is certainly debated as far as it's value.
Genuine in home marketing like Avon, Tupperware, Mary Kay, etc...relies on the value of their products and the profits generated by direct sales; not recruitment or the sale of self help products to their reps. Speed AMWAY used to have some skeeter spray called D-15. Probably 1950's levels of Deet in it, but the mosquito's never came close to me when I was a kid. |
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Excuse my ignorance, but what is MLM? Have you ever thought of starting your very own business and being your own boss?I have an opportunity for a select few sharp people like yourself to make UNBELIEVABLE amounts of money on this grounfloor opportunity!Do you have time this evening to meet for about an hour?=Scamway,phone cards,Shacklee,MonaVie,Pre-paid legal,etc |
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My mom works as a home health caregiver, and a few years ago, when she worked at a retirement village under a home health agency, she and the lady she took care of decided to start selling Avon. Yeah, it's an MLM, and she quit doing it after she realized it would take more money than it was worth to promote the product, but I got a ton of Skin So Soft, which was great considering I was working at a summer camp in 2009. Hey, if Avon's good enough for Pancho Lopez, it's good enough for me.
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My mom works as a home health caregiver, and a few years ago, when she worked at a retirement village under a home health agency, she and the lady she took care of decided to start selling Avon. Yeah, it's an MLM, and she quit doing it after she realized it would take more money than it was worth to promote the product, but I got a ton of Skin So Soft, which was great considering I was working at a summer camp in 2009. Hey, if Avon's good enough for Pancho Lopez, it's good enough for me. Avon's products are actually pretty good quality according to my wife. |