[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Gun Purchase Ethics Question (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/13/2012 6:54:55 PM EDT
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Here is a situation involving a gun purchase and I am looking for input as to what I should do. I stopped into a local FFL that I have been buying guns from for over 20 years. It is a small rural shop and sells mostly used guns and does a lot of trading and run by good honest people. I have never gotten a bad deal there or felt like I got stuck after a purchase. When I stopped in there this past week, there was a little 25 ACP German pistol laying on the counter. I had never heard of it but it was an interesting little gun and I asked if it was for sale. The owner answered that it was but he did not know how much yet as he brought it over from his house. It was one of his personal guns he was thinking of selling and had not looked into what it was worth. He was busy so he told me to look it up in his book and see what it was worth. I found the gun in the book and it listed the value, the gun is about %80 finish and fully functioning. The book said $140 in that condition. I showed him the book, he read it and then asked me how much I wanted to pay for it. I offered $150, he came back at $175. I thought about it and liked the gun so did not want to haggle over $25 so I said I would take it even though I thought it was too much. When I got the gun home and started doing some research, I found out the gun is somewhat scarce and worth more than what his book said it was. My book puts it at about $400. On GB, they are going for about that much as well. I know for sure that the gun I found in his book was the right gun. I have know idea why his book under valued the gun by so much. I do not want the gun for more than I paid for it but I like it and want to keep it. I feel that I was honest in my interaction with him as I did not know what the gun was worth and we used his book to determine value. His book simply appears to be wrong. I understand that legally I am under no obligation to sell it back to him. So, my question is, as an honest customer, do I have an ethical obligation to go back and either pay him more, which I do not want to do, or offer to sell it back to him at what I paid for it? What do you all think? |
| Thats a tough one. You looked in his reference material, came to a price you both agreed on, and bought it. Now you think it may be worth more. Hmm. I think I would research it more, and if it is worth more, offer to sell the gun back to him what you paid for it. It was a mistake on his part, but I think thats what I would do. YMMV. |
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He requested that you do his homework for him and agreed with your findings. I'd say you chalk it up to getting a good deal and leave it at that. He'd have looked up the book value himself, put a tag on it and sold it for the same price to someone else it sounds like, so you didn't take advantage of the timing at all.
Good buy! |
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Him not researching it isn't really your problem, or an moral dilemma, IMHO. You agreed to a price, and you did not deceive him in doing so. If you knew the actual value of the gun in advance, it would be different. (Although even then, it wasn't like you had some super-secret knowledge. Anybody can search gunbroker or google.) |
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If was losing money because of the book, I would be concerned. He obviously didn't care about the price, so that should tell you he was still making money. This is true. The shop I worked at, kept in his bound book the price he paid for a gun, be it new or used. I would look that up when haggling with people so I would know what wiggle room I had. Still, if it were a shop I had done business with for years, maybe considered the owner a friend, I would at least contact him and see if he wants to undo the deal, or maybe work something else out. YMMV. |
| I'd also think that sometimes his book results in pricing guns at a higher point than they are really worth, based on current internet sales data. A lot of gun buyers aren't like ARFCOM, they don't know where to look for accurate pricing, so they pay more than the gun is worth. Situations like yours where you get a deal based on the data the seller uses are probably a little rarer. I wouldn't worry about it. FWIW, I've bought some guns that were on consignment at gunshops, based on their book value. A couple times, their real value has been higher, but the gunshops don't seem to mind so much when it's consignment and they are earning a flat percentage - when book value is lower than real value they sell quickly, gunshop makes commission, and consigned seller thinks they got book value, so it's all good. |
| You used HIS OWN REFERENCE to determine a value you both believed was fair. No deception on either side. If you got home and YOUR book said it was only worth $100 would you take the gun back and expect a rebate? .... I didn't think so. The deal should stand IMHO. |
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If you had bought the gun knowing that it was worth more, you might be a bit of an asshole. As it is, neither of you knew the value for sure, and you reached a mutually agreeable price. Both of you took a risk - your side paid off.
Keep the gun, keep your mouth shut, and enjoy. |
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No, it was fair to both parties. Just continue giving him your business and all's well that ends well. This. There was no foul at the time of the transaction by either party, nor is there any now. What would you do if the gun had been worth exactly what you paid for it then, but after a couple years suddenly became very collectable and worth ten times as much, (for whatever reason)? Sell it back to him for your original purchase price? Sell it to someone else for its' new, higher value and give the original seller the difference in cash? |
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I'm not a big fan of screwing people, but he didn't really seem to be bothered to do his own research and you didn't do anything to screw the guy except look in a blue book for the list price. I think that's as far from screwing somebody as it gets.
Its like those classic barn car finds. An old guy finally sells his '69 SS/RS Camaro that's been in a barn for a decade and doesn't really care how much he sells it for, just wants it gone. There are a lot of times someone has called me and asked "how much for so and so". I'll tell them a fair market value and if I'm willing to buy it. Many times I hear, "so what price will you take it for?" Sometimes people are just looking to get rid of inventory, not sell for a profit. |
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Do what your conscience dictates in this situation.
The seller should have done his homework before offering to sell the gun, and if he undervalued it and you both agreed on the price, then it is his loss and you need not feel any remorse. However, if you have a long and valued relationship, then in the spirit of generosity you might offer him more or let him reconsider the deal with the new information on value. Your choice either way. (This kind of thing happens all the time among collectors of all sorts of things - not just guns. I know a guy who got a painting for free from someone once, because the owner found it in their attic and thought it was "old junk" and was going to throw it away. He asked if he could have it and they gave it to him. He later found out the painting is a rare, original example from a 19th century American master, and is worth $100,000. He has it on loan to a museum now). |
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You used HIS OWN REFERENCE to determine a value you both believed was fair. No deception on either side. If you got home and YOUR book said it was only worth $100 would you take the gun back and expect a rebate? .... I didn't think so. The deal should stand IMHO. This, and he got $25 more than you initially offered. |
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I personally would show/tell him, but I have a very good relationship/friendship with my dealer. I know, if this happened and I showed him he would thank me for showing him and congratulate me for getting a good deal. +1. I'd let him know the value and see what he wants to do. You would be doing nothing wrong or unethical if you keep quiet, but of it were me I would let him know the value and offer to sell it back at the price I paid. Of course, if I was the dealer and this happened, I would thank the customer for letting me know and tell him to enjoy the gun. Karma. |
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Quoted: If you had bought the gun knowing that it was worth more, you might be a bit of an asshole. As it is, neither of you knew the value for sure, and you reached a mutually agreeable price. Both of you took a risk - your side paid off. Keep the gun, keep your mouth shut, and enjoy. |
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Going back to my college Business Law classes: Under contract law he made an offer, you accepted that offer, that's a legal verbal contract, I guess sealed by the paperwork that was done, you got a receipt, correct? You didn't tell him the price, he gave you the price and all you did was accept it, pretty straightforward overall. |
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Quoted: You used HIS OWN REFERENCE to determine a value you both believed was fair. No deception on either side. If you got home and YOUR book said it was only worth $100 would you take the gun back and expect a rebate? .... I didn't think so. The deal should stand IMHO. This. Besides, just because some idiot paid $400 for one on Gunbroker doesn't mean it's actually WORTH that much, unless you were THAT seller or buyer... |
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Him not researching it isn't really your problem, or an moral dilemma, IMHO. You agreed to a price, and you did not deceive him in doing so. If you knew the actual value of the gun in advance, it would be different. (Although even then, it wasn't like you had some super-secret knowledge. Anybody can search gunbroker or google.) Exactly this. |
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Besides, just because some idiot paid $400 for one on Gunbroker doesn't mean it's actually WORTH that much, unless you were THAT seller or buyer... Good point, though we use GB's completed auctions where the firearm actually sold when figuring out the value of used or consigned guns, as unfortunately a lot of the book prices are out of date before the book is published. OP - enjoy the gun. |
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Quoted: You used HIS OWN REFERENCE to determine a value you both believed was fair. No deception on either side. If you got home and YOUR book said it was only worth $100 would you take the gun back and expect a rebate? .... I didn't think so. The deal should stand IMHO. exactly. he agreed on it, and apparently felt fine with his reference materials. enjoy your pistol |
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You could either keep it, or take it back to him and offer to sell it back for what you paid him for it and tell him you looked around and found that his book must have been mistaken because the gun sells for more than you bought it for.
If he buys it back, then you've done him right, and he may return the favor in kind someday. If he says it's OK, you keep it, then it's yours and you can do what you want with it. |