Posted: 7/20/2011 10:57:09 AM EDT
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We are on a river in a 25 ft RBS ( resonse boat small ) in patrolling at night (about 20:00 hrs) and decide to stop this cabin cruiser (about 30ft long) with 3 males on
board. We tie them along side and proceed to board them. The Boarding Officer and I step onboard and begin contact with them to determine whos boat it is, and ask for paperwork etc. It is obvious there has been drinking going on, so the boarding officer pulls me aside real quick and tells me to control the other two on the stern while he talks to the obviously drunk owner/operator. So I tell the other two guys ( both white, medium build, little aggitated) to sit down on the deck and chill while we do what we have to do. I notice a fish gutting knife sitting on one of the deck boxes so I just put it inside of the deck box, pretty ops normal. So one of the guys starts saying he has to take a leak. I tell him to hold on a minute, ill ask the boarding officer whats going down in a minute. So im standing there waiting for a lull in the boarding officer's converastion with the vessels owner (they are both inside the cabin). So dude that has to pee starts to get up and says that he has to piss again, I immediatly tell him to sit back down and wait a minute. He gets up again and I tell him to sit back down again (it becomes apparent he is wasted, vacant expression, flushed face etc.) He gets back up ignores my command to sit down and starts walking towards me. I tell him to get back and sit down, he ignores me and comes within inches of me a little to my left. I grab his wrist and do the strait arm take down flawlessly and am kneeling on his back in total control with his wrist locked behind him. I look at his buddy and he is just wide eyed and not moving. Boarding officer (i was a BTM, boarding team member. Boarding officer is in charge, im there for support) comes and asks whts goin on and I tell him. He sais cuff him and his freind, while he cuffs the owner. So subject under my knee is yelling and cursing which is understandable, he probably just got the shock of his life and non skid dosnt feel good to get slammed down on (think, 80 grit sandpaper). After cuffing the hand I had control of I tell him to give me his other hand, and he tells me to F off of course. I tell him again, and included that if he did not comply, he will feel some pain. He refuses again, I try to just grab his wrist but he tucks it under his body. The third guy is just sitting there still telling me he isnt gonna move and hes cool about it all. I dont want to hurt thisw guy again but what else am I supposed to do? I rock his left wrist with the cuff on it, I can feel his tendons stretching, I yell give me your other hand... nothin. DAMMIT!! This guy is so drunk the wrist being bent backwards with a cuff on it is not enough to compell compliance. This whole time im kneeling on him with my right knee, so he isnt going anywhere. I pull out my expandable baton, I dont extend it im just holding it in my hand and he sees it. I tell him again, the usual response (F you water nazi etc). I dig the tip of the baton into his ribs and yell the loudest ive ever yelled to give me his hand (i tried to just pull it out a couple times, no leverage dude was strong too). His arm pops out and I grab it and slap the other cuff on, it was smooth too, no cuff banging against the wriat multiple times etc. Ao I sit him up and lean him against a deck box ( not the one with the fish knife ) in such a fashion that he would have to be Jackie Chan to just jump up. Cuff his buddy, give him the speal "your not under arrest, this is for the safety of me and my boarding officer" he is cool with it. The boarding officer already cuffed the dude inside and he was starting initial FST's light in his eyes, follow my pen with your eyes, alphabet etc. Dude was drunk while operating a vessel. His friend that I unfortunately had to hurt, initialy got assault on on a Federal Law Enforcement Officer. How in the shit they got that from our write ups I have no clue. So I made sure they knew he never assaulted me just failed to follow instructions from me and got way too close for comfort, after repeatedly ignoring me, then ignoring my commands when I was cuffing him. Just wondering if I went over the line at all, been thinking about that one today. I dont like hurting anybody, I joined the Coast Guard to help people, not hurt them. Anyway, he got a slap on the wrist, but his buddy got a BUI. Turned out the defiant one that I had to take down and cuff with force had priors for the same shit, and assaulting a police officer etc. Didnt assault me but dam dude you learn your lesson yet? Just do what we say, well be out of your hair as soon as possible. Simple. Sorry about the novel, LE stuff has to be explained thouroughly. ETA: Did I do anything over the line? Why does he resist when he knows the consequenses, he is still is non compliant? |
So.... did the guy ever get to take his piss? 
Was there something about the cruiser that caught your eye, or was it just a random stop? ETA: Is an RBS an inflatable? Like a Zodiac? Also, I"m not LE, but I'm not sure what your question is that you allude to in the title. |
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Quoted: Turned out the defiant one that I had to take down and cuff with force had priors for the same shit, and assaulting a police officer etc. The fact that he got close to you and you don't seem to be concerned about it worries me. I can appreciate trying to see the good in the situation, but give it a couple of years of that type of shit, and you can understand why some cops seem lose their humanity. It's a fine line to walk. |
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So.... did the guy ever get to take his piss?
Was there something about the cruiser that caught your eye, or was it just a random stop? ETA: Is an RBS an inflatable? Like a Zodiac? Also, I"m not LE, but I'm not sure what your question is that you allude to in the title. Sorry, thought i put it in there. Do you think i did anything wrong/over the line. He never mentioned it again. I asked him if he still needed to and he ignored me. It is called a SAFE boat. Aluminum hull with a collar around the hull of this crazy durable foam stuff. |
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So.... did the guy ever get to take his piss?
Was there something about the cruiser that caught your eye, or was it just a random stop? ETA: Is an RBS an inflatable? Like a Zodiac? Also, I"m not LE, but I'm not sure what your question is that you allude to in the title. Sorry, thought i put it in there. Do you think i did anything wrong/over the line. He never mentioned it again. I asked him if he still needed to and he ignored me. It is called a SAFE boat. Aluminum hull with a collar around the hull of this crazy durable foam stuff. No, I don't think you were over the line. Dude was intoxicated, not following instructions, and you didn't know what the score was onboard. Who is the person you're referring to in red? Also, my other question: Was it a random stop, or did something about the cruiser trigger your skipper's "Spidey Sense"? |
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ETA: Did I do anything over the line? Why does he resist when he knows the consequenses, he is still is non compliant? What makes you think you did anything wrong? No offense, but you must be new to law enforcement. Talk to other cops (in real life). About the last place you should be asking or law enforcement advice is arfcom GD. You might was well be asking your dog for advice. Why do drunks do what they do? Who cares. It's irrelevant. You take the situation as it comes and handle it appropriately. |
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So.... did the guy ever get to take his piss?
Was there something about the cruiser that caught your eye, or was it just a random stop? ETA: Is an RBS an inflatable? Like a Zodiac? Also, I"m not LE, but I'm not sure what your question is that you allude to in the title. Sorry, thought i put it in there. Do you think i did anything wrong/over the line. He never mentioned it again. I asked him if he still needed to and he ignored me. It is called a SAFE boat. Aluminum hull with a collar around the hull of this crazy durable foam stuff. No, I don't think you were over the line. Dude was intoxicated, not following instructions, and you didn't know what the score was onboard. Who is the person you're referring to in red? Also, my other question: Was it a random stop, or did something about the cruiser trigger your skipper's "Spidey Sense"? I was reffering to the man who had to take a tinkle. No, no real reason, we were just ordered to do a couple boardings on our patrol and there wasnt much traffic. |
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So.... did the guy ever get to take his piss?
Was there something about the cruiser that caught your eye, or was it just a random stop? ETA: Is an RBS an inflatable? Like a Zodiac? Also, I"m not LE, but I'm not sure what your question is that you allude to in the title. Sorry, thought i put it in there. Do you think i did anything wrong/over the line. He never mentioned it again. I asked him if he still needed to and he ignored me. It is called a SAFE boat. Aluminum hull with a collar around the hull of this crazy durable foam stuff. Asking arfcom GD anything is pretty much begging to be abused. 
Ive had drill instructors yelling in my face, I think i'll be ok with a little interwebs playful banter. |
| When the dude ignored your instructions and walked toward you, this in its self is an aggressive move. You put him on the deck, handcuffed one hand and he refused to give you the other. You used what force necessary to handcuff him and to make the arrest. No problem that I see. |
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Did you step over the line? No. you told him multiple times to stay seated and he refused to do so. a piss can be held long enough to figure out whats going on. he not only ignored you but he invaded your "reactionary gap". he doesnt need to be that close. and its a split second decision out there, what if? what if he had some knife and decided he didn't want you to go home?
Why they always mess up? That i'll never understand.... |
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So.... did the guy ever get to take his piss?
Was there something about the cruiser that caught your eye, or was it just a random stop? ETA: Is an RBS an inflatable? Like a Zodiac? Also, I"m not LE, but I'm not sure what your question is that you allude to in the title. Sorry, thought i put it in there. Do you think i did anything wrong/over the line. He never mentioned it again. I asked him if he still needed to and he ignored me. It is called a SAFE boat. Aluminum hull with a collar around the hull of this crazy durable foam stuff. No, I don't think you were over the line. Dude was intoxicated, not following instructions, and you didn't know what the score was onboard. Who is the person you're referring to in red? Also, my other question: Was it a random stop, or did something about the cruiser trigger your skipper's "Spidey Sense"? I was reffering to the man who had to take a tinkle. No, no real reason, we were just ordered to do a couple boardings on our patrol and there wasnt much traffic. Ah! So either he was BSing you which is a whole 'nother load of WTF (maybe trying to get to a concealed weapon), or the front of his shorts were a darker color after his close encounter with the deck. I don't think you did anything wrong. Again, I'm not LE, but I am an avid boater. Every encounter I've ever had with the CG has been a pleasant one. I know that if I ever get in trouble out on the water, you guys will do everything in your power to rescue my ass, and I love y'all for that! 
My retirement dream is to buy a late-60's/early-70's Chris Craft Commander 47 that is in need of a little TLC, fix it up and cruise the Intracoastal and inshore from the Keys to New York and back. Bahamas/Key West/Dry Tortugas in the Winter, Northern part of the Great Loop in the Summer. Hope I can pull it off! |
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So.... did the guy ever get to take his piss?
Was there something about the cruiser that caught your eye, or was it just a random stop? ETA: Is an RBS an inflatable? Like a Zodiac? Also, I"m not LE, but I'm not sure what your question is that you allude to in the title. Sorry, thought i put it in there. Do you think i did anything wrong/over the line. He never mentioned it again. I asked him if he still needed to and he ignored me. It is called a SAFE boat. Aluminum hull with a collar around the hull of this crazy durable foam stuff. sounds like something to look forward to, good luck. Funny thing is we would rescue drunk non-compliant dude just the same no questions asked, guess he dosn't understand that. Funny thing is we would rescue drunk non-compliant dude just the same no questions asked. Sounds like an awesome thing to look forward to good luck! 
No, I don't think you were over the line. Dude was intoxicated, not following instructions, and you didn't know what the score was onboard. Who is the person you're referring to in red? Also, my other question: Was it a random stop, or did something about the cruiser trigger your skipper's "Spidey Sense"? I was reffering to the man who had to take a tinkle. No, no real reason, we were just ordered to do a couple boardings on our patrol and there wasnt much traffic. Ah! So either he was BSing you which is a whole 'nother load of WTF (maybe trying to get to a concealed weapon), or the front of his shorts were a darker color after his close encounter with the deck. I don't think you did anything wrong. Again, I'm not LE, but I am an avid boater. Every encounter I've ever had with the CG has been a pleasant one. I know that if I ever get in trouble out on the water, you guys will do everything in your power to rescue my ass, and I love y'all for that!
My retirement dream is to buy a late-60's/early-70's Chris Craft Commander 47 that is in need of a little TLC, fix it up and cruise the Intracoastal and inshore from the Keys to New York and back. Bahamas/Key West/Dry Tortugas in the Winter, Northern part of the Great Loop in the Summer. Hope I can pull it off! |
I'll stir things up for you OP. 
As a police officer, I suspected that no one that had not "been there" could make a call about reasonable force. Compliance, by its very nature, looks "violent" to the un-educated and untrained. That is why a video of the most legal and correct take down in the world would make a soccer Mom faint. After reading the idiocy of several years of LEO bashing in GD, I am 100% convinced that they cannot. You know the rules for compliance. You know what you did. You can make the call, and if in doubt, ask your partner. Do the best you can. Follow the law. And don't worry about it. |
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I think the whole thing was over the line. What was your PC for boarding them to start with ? Lol... here we go.... Yep.. The Coast Guard does not need PC for boarding a vessel for a vessel safety inspection. The inspection is to ensure the vessel, whether recreational or commericial, is in compliance with all federal rules and regulations. Concerning use of force, you used only that force necessary under the circumstances to compel compliance. You gave verbal commands multiple times, he disregarded those commands and came into your reactionary gap where you reacted to ensure the safety of the boarding team. At the time he was only a passive resistor but you could say that since he was not follwing verbal commands that attempting normal application of handcuffs could have escalated the situation. That in turn could have caused injury to you or your boarding team. He turned into an active resistor when you used a take down and you gave him verbal commands with consequences and when he did not comply you did what was necessary to control him. You went by the book as far as I'm concerned. I'm also a BTM. |
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I think the whole thing was over the line. What was your PC for boarding them to start with ? We can board any U.S. vessel in U.S. waters whenever we want. but can you detain without reasonable cause? I don't know enough to determine if you should have legitimately felt threatened when he approached. But you should. Sounds to me like you need to get some more education on this issue. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Turned out the defiant one that I had to take down and cuff with force had priors for the same shit, and assaulting a police officer etc. The fact that he got close to you and you don't seem to be concerned about it worries me. I can appreciate trying to see the good in the situation, but give it a couple of years of that type of shit, and you can understand why some cops seem lose their humanity. It's a fine line to walk. That would be good training in my opinion. The underlying confidence that he could bust a MOFO without having to think too long when necessary. |
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Quoted: Did I do anything over the line? Why does he resist when he knows the consequenses, he is still is non compliant? No you did not. Why does he resist? You said it yourself, he was drunk. Some drunks do shit that they would never do sober. Happens all the time. BTW, I don't know what's harder to read. A wall of text with no paragraphs or a wall of text all double spaced |
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I think the whole thing was over the line. What was your PC for boarding them to start with ? We can board any U.S. vessel in U.S. waters whenever we want. Yeah I know............ That was a leading up to question anyway. So for the real question.............. When you took your sworn oath of LE ( Or whatever ir is called) Did you swear to uphold the constitution, or the lawmakers that has raped it ? Because the latter is what you are doing in reality. |
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So for the real question.............. When you took your sworn oath of LE ( Or whatever ir is called) Did you swear to uphold the constitution, or the lawmakers that has raped it ? Because the latter is what you are doing in reality. Do you realize that you are posting on AR15.com and addressing an honorable serviceman? You need to be careful of insulting honorable military members. |
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Not sure, but it seems as though you told the guy you dealt with he was not under arrest. Anytime you have to use force like that then they are arrested. If you do the cuff to secure the scene routine and they comply that's ok. If they don'y comply and the force escalates as it did he's out of luck.
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I think the whole thing was over the line. What was your PC for boarding them to start with ? We can board any U.S. vessel in U.S. waters whenever we want. Yeah I know............ That was a leading up to question anyway. So for the real question.............. When you took your sworn oath of LE ( Or whatever ir is called) Did you swear to uphold the constitution, or the lawmakers that has raped it ? Because the latter is what you are doing in reality. This is going every bit as well as I thought it would. 
Edit: As said above: ask, tell, make. |
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No idea about the whole boarding thing, I have no experience with that so I will assume that all that was on the up and up.
As for your use of force, you were much more cordial with him that I would have been. I have been in LE for close to 2 decades and have been a defensive tactics instructor for 15 years, he wouldnt have been treated as nice by me as he was by you. J- |
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No idea about the whole boarding thing, I have no experience with that so I will assume that all that was on the up and up. As for your use of force, you were much more cordial with him that I would have been. I have been in LE for close to 2 decades and have been a defensive tactics instructor for 15 years, he wouldnt have been treated as nice by me as he was by you. J- It was the first time I had to lay hands on someone like that in a professional way if you get my drift. |
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There were two of you, three of them. Your buddy had his hands full, you had your hands full. Their #3 was loose. Until you got cuffs on the big dumb one, your safety was reliant on the decision making skills of #3, a drunk dude who keeps the company of idiots.
I might even go the other way, and wonder if the restraint you showed and your reluctance to use force could not have been life threatening, but you've not really given any indication as to whether your misgivings actually tripped up the flow of action. |
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There were two of you, three of them. Your buddy had his hands full, you had your hands full. Their #3 was loose. Until you got cuffs on the big dumb one, your safety was reliant on the decision making skills of #3, a drunk dude who keeps the company of idiots. I might even go the other way, and wonder if the restraint you showed and your reluctance to use force could not have been life threatening, but you've not really given any indication as to whether your misgivings actually tripped up the flow of action. I know, right after I had control of the other guy the first thing I did was look at #3. Head was on a swivel with #3. If he even moved an eye lash wrong, I probably would have had to pop up off #2 and draw a weapon, baton, or pistol. |